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View Poll Results: Why are commercial apps for linux so badly packaged ?
Was just a proof of concept. Packaging was not planned 1 5.88%
They donít want to be seen by MS as promoting Linux 2 11.76%
They think the great thing with Linux is that users sort themselves out 10 58.82%
They are waiting for an universal installer to be available before doing anything 4 23.53%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-29-2003, 07:06 PM   #16
lupin_the_3rd
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I think that if you run KDE or GNOME most commercial apps do install menu entries... albeit somtimes these links are missing icons but you can always add or change the icon later... My Limewire install created a menu entry in GNOME... but when I use pekwm I create my own menus and don't want apps mucking about with my handiwork as I have it the way I like it... and with pekwm I don't desktop icons... just my two cents...

as for nvidia, how hard is it to open a terminal, su, telinit 3, sh nvidia-installer, and then edit your XFree86 config file, and then telinit 5? Sure, more complicated than Windows but this also allows you to enter other nvidia options while your editing like not having a nvidia splash, to ignore non-connected monitors, etc...
 
Old 12-29-2003, 07:09 PM   #17
lupin_the_3rd
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Quote:
Originally posted by dukeinlondon
Trickykid, you clearly have a problem with icons and reading is not your strong skill right ?. I am talking about various things in the post and just asking one question : why do you think that is ?

Please tick the "They think the great thing with Linux is that users sort themselves out" and let's move on !

Geeeee !

I
He did, distros do not all follow the same formats and programs,icons,etc fall into different locations... ie the installer may work for Mandrake but not Debian. Also, with the possibly hundreds of Desktops available how can you create a "universal installer" that made them all happy including those that do not have desktop icons (pekwm, xfce4) or generated menus (pekwm, Xfce4).

Last edited by lupin_the_3rd; 12-29-2003 at 10:45 PM.
 
Old 12-29-2003, 07:32 PM   #18
mikshaw
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Location: Maine, USA
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Quote:
If icons and menu entries don't matter, why do most linux desktop environment offer the facility ?
Choice....it's all about choice. I for one don't want a frickin icon created every time i install an application...or ever, really.

As for the UT2003, feel lucky the installer actually made it to the release....They came so close to releasing it Windows-only that the packaging was already printed by the time the Linux script went in.
 
Old 12-29-2003, 08:24 PM   #19
trickykid
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Registered: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,149

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Quote:
Originally posted by dukeinlondon
Trickykid, you clearly have a problem with icons and reading is not your strong skill right ?.
I've already warned you once about letting things get personal. I see that as borderline once again and this is your last warning. I not once made personal comments towards you and expressed my views and opinions on your topic in which I am totally obligated to post. If you have a problem with members, mods or anyone for that matter to express their views in such an opinionated type thread, you shouldn't post them if you are going to get personal in the responses.

Regards.
 
Old 12-29-2003, 11:40 PM   #20
vincebs
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I agree, companies should spend more time programming installer tools. These are one of the stumbling blocks free software faces from broader acceptance in the corporate world. Companies do not want to waste time (== money) after installation trying to figure out how to configure the software to work properly on their systems. Ideally, after installation, everything should be up and running. Or at least working enough so that a minor tweak using an easy-to-use configuration utility will fix the slight problem.
 
Old 12-30-2003, 03:40 PM   #21
psmith
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Registered: May 2003
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Wow, this thread was one heck-of-a read. I don't know about you guys, but I'm just so dang glad that there's something to use OTHER than an MS or Mac OS. I am very grateful to the tons of hours that voluntarily go into these distros.

If escaping the terrancial behavior of MS means having to put an icon on the desktop or hack some config file, then I'm happy to do it. As a result, I've expanded my thinking and empowered myself in a way that MS would prefer to rob me of.

I've been using Slack for about a year now and have spent quite a number of hours getting it optimized to my liking. But that's just it, it's to MY liking...and if I don't like it later, I can change it again...and again...and so on.

Sure it's a pain to load a program sometimes. I catch myself moaning occasionally when I don't find a Slack package for what I want. And then I remind myself...some programmer somewhere spent hours writing this program, and now they are giving it to me, for free. All I have to do is ./configure, make, make install, and I'm good to go. I've got nothing to whine about.

Thanks to all!

~smithy

Last edited by psmith; 12-30-2003 at 03:42 PM.
 
Old 01-08-2004, 02:35 PM   #22
stickman
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,552

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Quote:
Originally posted by dukeinlondon
Quite right but at least the IE and even Mozilla get configured. All desktop oriented distros (where plugins matter) use Mozilla to an extent so that's not a complicate config to do.
Does Mozilla on Windows get configured every time? I see to recall having to manually place some files at one time because I did not have IE or "real" Netscape.

It would be a bit of a challenge if you happend to have multiple versions of Mozilla on your system, and putting it in the users .mozilla directory would only work is the user only has one version of Mozilla since not all plugins are compatible with every version. Besides browsers don't always reside in the same place across all distributions. Some might be in /usr/local/mozilla, /usr/local/mozilla-1.4, or /usr/local/mozilla-1.5, or even /opt at times. On my laptop /usr/local/mozilla is a symlink to the version that I am currently using.

Sometimes it's just easier for an author to put a README in the package and let the user sort it out for themselves.

Last edited by stickman; 01-08-2004 at 02:42 PM.
 
Old 01-08-2004, 03:59 PM   #23
Vlad_M
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Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Distribution: Red Hat 8.0 (Home), Red Hat 8.0 (Work)
Posts: 388

Rep: Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally posted by trickykid
I've already warned you once about letting things get personal. I see that as borderline once again and this is your last warning. I not once made personal comments towards you and expressed my views and opinions on your topic in which I am totally obligated to post. If you have a problem with members, mods or anyone for that matter to express their views in such an opinionated type thread, you shouldn't post them if you are going to get personal in the responses.

Regards.
You are an aggressive, arrongant person. You hide behind 'I simply state my opinions" mantra, yet fail (or choose to disregard) to see the fact that an opinion can be expressed in an insulting fashion. You are clearly intelligent enough to realize that, so why do it that way?

I have been around for a while, when it comes to your linux skills they are impeccable, when it comes to your people skills they are incredibly poor.

And yes, this is personal. I am just very irritated by the way you treat people.

And yes, I do consider myself warned (or banned), whichever you prefer, O great moderator.

Cheers,

Vlad.
 
Old 01-08-2004, 08:46 PM   #24
jtshaw
Senior Member
 
Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Seattle, WA USA
Distribution: Ubuntu @ Home, RHEL @ Work
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Carlywarly,
It would be nice if Nvidia would take your current XF86Config file and make the neccesary changes and save it as something like XF86Config-NVIDIA, but I am really glad it just doesn't blindly change it for me. Because of the somewhat loose sintax of those files, and the fact that I tend to do heavy editing to my configuration files, god knows what might happen if Nvidia took the standard redhat generated (or something other distro auto generated) configuration file, figured out how to change it, and made there driver do it. There are other options that I sometimes use that require me to turn the Nvidia drivers off and I would expect them to figure out what all the options might be to make sure I didn't have them.

This of course makes me think of one of the few complaints I have had about linux. The mess that is configuration files.

Most MacOS X products use an xml configuration file. This is pretty much the Mac standard for configuration. What this means is you can write one program that can configure anything, cause all it has to do is read the XML to see what all the parameters and options are. I am not saying XML is definitely the answer but if there was a consistent method for configuration on all things linux it would make everyones life that much easier. Of course it is definitely hard to come up with such standards when you are as large as the linux developer community is, and it is completely unenforceable. But it would be nice none the less.
 
Old 01-08-2004, 09:38 PM   #25
unSpawn
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Registered: May 2001
Posts: 29,331
Blog Entries: 55

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Vlad_M, regardless of who you're talking to on LQ, you *will* show proper respect for your fellow LQ members. If it is personal, then keep it personal and email. If you have a problem with moderators conduct, then take it up by email. As lecturer you would have known there's no value in making remarks like that, please stop doing that. It's OT, it's not constructive, it doesn't help no one.


TIA
 
Old 01-08-2004, 10:07 PM   #26
trickykid
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Registered: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,149

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Quote:
Originally posted by Vlad_M
You are an aggressive, arrongant person. You hide behind 'I simply state my opinions" mantra, yet fail (or choose to disregard) to see the fact that an opinion can be expressed in an insulting fashion. You are clearly intelligent enough to realize that, so why do it that way?

I have been around for a while, when it comes to your linux skills they are impeccable, when it comes to your people skills they are incredibly poor.

And yes, this is personal. I am just very irritated by the way you treat people.

And yes, I do consider myself warned (or banned), whichever you prefer, O great moderator.

Cheers,

Vlad.
First of all, like unspawn mentioned as well as you having over 300 posts, you should know our rules on this site.

Second of all, guess I better take down all of my Acknowlegements from my employers over the years for them recognizing my superb Customer Service Skills and People Skills.

Hmmm.. I was stating my own opinion not once making it personal against the person posting the thread. I don't have to agree with the person. Quite frankly as myself speaking and not moderating at this moment, I think dukeinlondon's thread and reasons on his opinions are very poor. That's why I don't agree with him and stated that, then had to defend myself after he basically personally attacked me for having an opinion.

Oh well, I can really care less what you think of me, I never asked you for your opinion regarding myself. But keep your personal attacks and comments either to yourself or email me directly, or the site admin in the future.

Regards.

PS. I don't usually treat any one member on this site any different from any other members. I treat everyone equally. I seem to have more thank you mail than hate mail. I think in the 3 years of being a member, I've had maybe 2 along with no more than 3 or 4 responses like you've made to me. I guess that isn't too bad considering we have over 90k members. If you want to discuss this any more though, feel free to email me, I'm all ears like always as that goes for any other member who feels like emailing me, except questions about Linux though, ask those here in the forums.

PSS. Also to add, if you truly believe that I am arrogant and have poor people skills, I can clearly say that from your post making personal remarks to me publicly doesn't make you any better than myself. Cheers.

Last edited by trickykid; 01-08-2004 at 10:25 PM.
 
Old 01-08-2004, 10:30 PM   #27
Tinkster
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Quote:
NVidia drivers have to be run outside of X which is fine but why is the package not runnable and why doesn't it switch to the right runlevel automatically after it is started by root and run itself from there ? and then restart X when finished, after having backed up and modified the XF86Config file ?
Because NVidia has no way of checking whether you
might be doing something important in X while first
trying to run the installation, and you might be very
upset if such and such program got killed after 20
hours of computation just because someone thinks
it's fine to switch to run-level 3?


Quote:
Compared to how easy it is to install packages in mandrake and debian
Because someone else who happens to use the
distro has made the effort. Do you expect any
commercial software company to provide time
& energy with let's say 10 distro's and a choice
of 10 Windowmanagers in combination just because
you think it's a hassle to put an icon where you
want it? Now throw in 3 browsers, on 3 different
distros (using different locations for executables,
libs and configurations files). Why on earth should
anyone want to write installation routines that are
that complex, when there's a knowledgable root
around to take care of things?


Quote:
I tried typing tutor and the java package (for macos and Linux) installs fine on my box but again, no icon and no menu entry. Why did they even bother porting it to Java ?
Java, by itself, knows didly-squat about icons, and
probably can't care much less than about what you
want your desktop to look like. You want an icon,
you place it. My WM (fluxbox) has no icons. I don't
expext ANYONE to put anything in my fluxbox menu
(atcually, I expect quite the opposite - I have a minimalistic
WM, and I don't want anyone but myself to change
it's settings).


No offense meant, but to me it seems that you have no
idea about software development, and quite frankly it also
seems to me that your concept of what Linux ought to
be and the actual principles behind it are mutually
exclusive.



Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 01-09-2004, 04:02 AM   #28
Vlad_M
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Quote:
Originally posted by trickykid
First of all, like unspawn mentioned as well as you having over 300 posts, you should know our rules on this site.

Second of all, guess I better take down all of my Acknowlegements from my employers over the years for them recognizing my superb Customer Service Skills and People Skills.

Hmmm.. I was stating my own opinion not once making it personal against the person posting the thread. I don't have to agree with the person. Quite frankly as myself speaking and not moderating at this moment, I think dukeinlondon's thread and reasons on his opinions are very poor. That's why I don't agree with him and stated that, then had to defend myself after he basically personally attacked me for having an opinion.

Oh well, I can really care less what you think of me, I never asked you for your opinion regarding myself. But keep your personal attacks and comments either to yourself or email me directly, or the site admin in the future.

Regards.

PS. I don't usually treat any one member on this site any different from any other members. I treat everyone equally. I seem to have more thank you mail than hate mail. I think in the 3 years of being a member, I've had maybe 2 along with no more than 3 or 4 responses like you've made to me. I guess that isn't too bad considering we have over 90k members. If you want to discuss this any more though, feel free to email me, I'm all ears like always as that goes for any other member who feels like emailing me, except questions about Linux though, ask those here in the forums.

PSS. Also to add, if you truly believe that I am arrogant and have poor people skills, I can clearly say that from your post making personal remarks to me publicly doesn't make you any better than myself. Cheers.
I agree that I was out of line when I made my post, and that my comments belonged in your private mailbox rather on the forum. I do apologise.

As I said, I do appreciate both your technical input and your moderating efforts. I just wish that you would be more, well, moderate when you disagree with someone's opinions. That's all.

Cheers,

Vlad.
 
Old 01-09-2004, 06:55 AM   #29
DavidHayes
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Registered: Jul 2001
Posts: 16

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Personally I think it's an interesting point. Part of the undeniable success of Windows is it makes things easy for everybody (not just people who are willing and able to go hunting for executables, recompile from source etc).
I am a developer and for my sins I fell into the Windows world after leaving Uni, I've been using Linux on and off for about 10 years and although it has improved enormously it's still got a long way to go in (arguably) important ways before it can compete with Windows.
The PC has become a consumer product, most people just want it to work. People (and I count myself amoung them) who enjoy tinkering will love Linux but we are a minority.
Good install packages are an essential part of gaining acceptance by your average end user. To use an analogy (always a bad idea but hey!) If you buy a toaster you don't expect to have to install the elements yourself it should just work.
Obviously just my opinion, I'm not trying to start a war here.

Dave
 
Old 01-09-2004, 02:46 PM   #30
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by DavidHayes
To use an analogy (always a bad idea but hey!) If you buy a toaster you don't expect to have to install the elements yourself it should just work.
I really love analogies :)

And Linux never was meant to be a toaster.
It's a box full of gadgets that blend together
in a million ways, and if you want a toaster,
you make one, if you'd rather make a micro-
wave oven, so be it!

And if you were to make a toaster, you'd have
the freedom to have one that makes 2 or 6
or even 12 slices, and if you didn't like them
to pop out at the top, you can slide them out
side-ways onto your plate, too

;)

I do appreciate that a "homogeneous" appearance
and "everything from one hand" makes things
easier for the owner. But it also makes you depend
on one partner, and it makes it easier for cons
and burglars to take advantage of the people
who use the same house, same alarm system,
everything identical. The colour (desktop pictures)
doesn't really make a difference to the intruder.



Cheers,
Tink


P.S.: Why is this starting to look familiar? :D
 
  


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