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Old 11-08-2005, 12:33 AM   #16
davcefai
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It's not a case of fixing the software. It's a case of configuring it.

One of the features of Linux is the vast choice of configurations that you have. So when you run the multmedia programs you need to tell them what you have or prefer.

Incidentally it's not Linux you're criticising, it's KDE or Gnome or whatever WM you're running.

If you've done a "kitchen sink" install then you could have up to 4 sound systems available. Moreover not all programs can use all of these.

There is a price to freedom. If you want to run software which is regularly maintained, doesn't lock you in, doesn't phone home and doesn't blue-screen regularly then you have to take the trouble to set it up properly.

Linux multimedia is not perfect and can be frustrating (I'm still sorting out my relatively recent Debian installation, can't get sound in some games) but if you don't want to play here then Uncle Bill's sandbox is over that way and he'll look after you and make sure that a lot of Viruses, Trojans and Spyware will look after the interests of his cronies in the MPAA and RIAA and of the marketeers who want to know where you've been so that they can control your browser and in fact your computer.
 
Old 11-08-2005, 03:20 AM   #17
ptay1685
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Quote:
Originally posted by davcefai
It's not a case of fixing the software. It's a case of configuring it.

One of the features of Linux is the vast choice of configurations that you have. So when you run the multmedia programs you need to tell them what you have or prefer.

Incidentally it's not Linux you're criticising, it's KDE or Gnome or whatever WM you're running.

If you've done a "kitchen sink" install then you could have up to 4 sound systems available. Moreover not all programs can use all of these.

There is a price to freedom. If you want to run software which is regularly maintained, doesn't lock you in, doesn't phone home and doesn't blue-screen regularly then you have to take the trouble to set it up properly.

Linux multimedia is not perfect and can be frustrating (I'm still sorting out my relatively recent Debian installation, can't get sound in some games) but if you don't want to play here then Uncle Bill's sandbox is over that way and he'll look after you and make sure that a lot of Viruses, Trojans and Spyware will look after the interests of his cronies in the MPAA and RIAA and of the marketeers who want to know where you've been so that they can control your browser and in fact your computer.
It is perhaps more the Linux Distros which really deserve the criticism. It is the job of the people who configure these Distros to setup scripts which automate the installation of software.

You are correct in saying that there is a lot of software, but couldnt the distro creators at least set up one DVB package to work? In one distro I have tried there is xine, tvtime, kaffeine and mplayer, all of which are supposed to support DVB, and not one of them works. And these packages are installed automatically - I did not install them separately.

There are so many Distros around, most of which contain tons of software which is never properly set up and will never work for newbies. Supposedly a lot of these distros are desktop distros to appeal to non expert users, with the emphasis on the word "supposedly".

The fact is it is possible to do this, but people have not bothered, instead concentrating on designing logos, wallpapers and styles. They seem to put more effort into the web page than the distro. Anything you or I could do how much more so could those who have compiled the distro do? They have automated X configuration, network configuration, etc. This is not really any different. I see no excuse for it not to be done.

Instead we have twenty or thirty distros based on Debian, a dozen or so based on Red Hat, etc, all with KDE 3.4.2 (or 3), Gnome 2.12, OpenOffice 2.0, etc. Nothing really to distinguish them except that they all fail to play DVB's to a man.

Might it not be more to the point if instead of 1000 developers creating 1000 distros whose main difference is the name of the distro and the colour of the wallpaper, instead they could all work on one distro and automate it so it really can work out of the box. If Microsoft can do it, Im sure they can.

At present we have hundreds of distros none of which can play DVBs out of the box. How about instead one that can?

When you consider how much time and effort has gone in to designing and creating and testing the DVB drivers, and building them into the kernel, only to have them sit there unused unless the user is a Linux guru or someone who doesnt mind writing scripts. How sad. What a waste.
 
Old 11-08-2005, 03:24 AM   #18
ptay1685
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DVB Linux!!

Heres a thought.

I might try to create a whole new Linux called DVBLinux that can actually play DVB's!

Probably base it on Ubuntu.

I know ill call it DVBuntu.

Now what wallpaper and logo should I use?

Best start off with the web page and an announcement in DistroWatch - worry about the distro later.

Then I can release an enless set of alphas and betas. Start off with 0.1, 0.2, etc. Neednt come up with a finished product for years if Im careful.

Wish me luck.
 
Old 11-08-2005, 05:36 AM   #19
davcefai
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This is becoming an "Is Linux ready for the Desktop" discussion.

I would guess that a distro like Linspire will have the minimum problems in this area because it is actually being aimed at the mass market. Mandrake ain't to bad either. Debian is definitely not mass market.

To try and answer the original question, Linspire or Mandrake may be the distro to go for. Note that both are "commercial". Somebody has put money into them and expects money from you. On the other hand you get direct support - which is really what uou are paying for anyway.
 
Old 11-08-2005, 06:15 AM   #20
cp0ff
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good luck ptay1685!
with whatever you decide on.
much has changed for the better in the world of Linux distros
since I first tried one, maybe oneday they'll impress you..
maybe not.. Im sure Bill's door is always open to you.

may your frustrations be trivial and short lived.

C.Poff
 
Old 11-08-2005, 07:47 AM   #21
pingu
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I always get frustrated when someone asks a question, want something to work - and is told "Read #thousands of pages or Stick to Windows!"
As if Linux isn't a system that can be used by other than programmers??? As if noone but programmers with plenty of spare time has the right to use Linux???
Stop harassing people with problems, people who write here to get some advice , people who just need to be productive!
If you don't like the question then don't answer it!

Now to the problem, ptay1685:
The most important question is: do you have a decent Internet-connection?
If you have, then use apt-get, yum or urpmi or whatever of that kind.
You will need a graphical frontend to be able to search for all multimedia-stuff available.
I have been on Linux since 2000, I had lots of problems earlier - now at last with a high-speed connection all distro's tried are superior to Windows when it comes to multimedia (amongst other things...)
But if you don't have it, if you have a modem-connection...
I think the best is to buy a distro - you will get a lot for very little money!
My guess is Mandriva or SuSe should be the best. I haven't seen any Debian-based in the shops? And you don't want Debian if you want to use hardware easily... However, Debian is the very best when it comes to installing software (possibly with exception of Gentoo). (Pretty strange really: in debian you'ra supposed to configure all your hardware manually - but installing software with Apt you're handheld from the beginning to the end!)
I also remember a spacialized multimedia-distro I tried some year ago, don't remember the name. I'll check it when I get home.

Cheers!
 
Old 11-08-2005, 09:14 AM   #22
cp0ff
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there is so much more to learn about Linux because there is so much more knowledge available to
be learned that is secret information in other OS's.
The documentation is always so intimidating because it often references concepts, ideas and terms
Im unfamiliar with. I've learned to just go through the docs and try to grasp what I can, play with it,
and try to figure it out. I feel sucessfull overall, but have spent MANY hours doing this, because I like the challenge, and would rather not use a computer than use XP (I do still fiddle with 98 occasionally).
this site and other Linux forums are the best source of valuable information available on Linux
(real life application, problems, and solutions by real people are always more valuable than manuals)

I think that the questions asked were effectively answered as best they could be considering that what
he is looking for is essentially non-existent in Linux, and IMO, all operating systems.
I think some people want someone to be accountable for the nerve-racking brain-cooking frustration
they experience trying to use/learn Linux, but there is no central source to blame, so the forums
(being a hotspot for enthusiasts) is where people go .

distros are trying to make it easier, and have come along way, but in the end
you can either take the time, or not use it... period
if you dont have the time or dedication, it's a bad choice.
time will likely change this.

whining about how your car does'nt run good and how it does'nt fix it's self is not going to help.
likewise with ALL computer issues for any OS. (paying someone else to fix it is an option, but still
leaves you helpless the next time something happens...and it is ALWAYS SOMETHING!


C.Poff
 
Old 11-08-2005, 11:23 AM   #23
Dtsazza
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There have been some good points raised in this thread. Something that hasn't been mentioned though, specifically in response to
Quote:
Originally posted by ptay1685
You are correct in saying that there is a lot of software, but couldnt the distro creators at least set up one DVB package to work?
My understanding on this issue is that it's down to licensing. A lot of codecs are proprietary (e.g. mp3) and cannot officially be distributed without a license. Now myself, along with 95% of other Linux users, think this is wrong, and thus it's always possible to obtain an mp3 codec for free from somewhere. However, it's still technically illegal, so distros can't actually distribute it without a license. That's what half of the issue is, here, that the people who write the distros aren't free to include the code they feel would be most beneficial because they're constrained by licensing laws. Which leads back to Redmond and RIAA, etc.



On the other hand, I do have a bit of an issue with people who expect that they have the right to merely use computers. I'm not saying that applies to you, ptay1685, but there are some who feel that computers should work without any investment from them. Computers are incredibly complex things, and since (by their very nature) they're configurable and modifiable by those using them, those users need to have some understanding of how they work. Obviously there's a sliding scale in this, but you see the same story over and over again by reading these forums: people who invested a little time and effort have overcome the problems they've been directly faced with, but more importantly they've learnt how to use their computers faster and better. On the other hand, people who don't understand the concept of computers fall prey to phishing scams, spyware and viruses. A little education goes a long way.

The thing with Linux is that it gives you power, a lot of power. Because of that you have to learn how to use it, and that's a conscious choice. I don't think anyone on this forum intends to be elitist, but we're here to help people learn how to use that power. Another feature of Linux is that it's free (as in beer, and as in speech), so if you don't like what you've got you can roll your own!
 
Old 11-08-2005, 03:12 PM   #24
ptay1685
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is it down to money?

Must admit to getting fed up with the atittiude that if you want something that works then you need to spend money - e.g. buy Windows or Suse. Not true.

Actually I have used multimedia on Windows for years using purchased TV tuner products, usually hardware/software combos such as Pinnacle, AverMedia, and software supplied with graphics cards such as NeoTV. Also purchased Intervideo and ULead software direct over the net.

To put it blunt all the supplied software was complete crap. Not a single one worked properly - bugs galore and lots of missing essential functionality.

The only exceptions found so far were the TV software that came with my Leadtek Winfast graphics card (Winfast PVR) which actually does work well. Ulead software was ok bugwise but crippled.

I currently use the DigiTV USB digital tuner device with supplied DigiTV software (Windows) which works best of all for recording, probably mostly because it does so little, as the input data is already MPEG2 formatted and only has to be streamed to disc. Unfortunately the company has left it up to Linux enthusiasts to make the card work with Linux, and there currently seems to be few or none of those at present.

The issue is not free versus money, or Linux versus Windows, or proprietry versus open source, or any general religious global issues. It is simply a matter of when will someone take an interest in Linux and multimedia and do it right! One day it will happen.

What Linux needs is a Kris Moore (PC-BSD) to get things focussed and moving. Unfortunately there seems to be no one championing multimedia in Linux at the moment.

 
Old 11-08-2005, 03:13 PM   #25
ptay1685
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Quote:
Originally posted by pingu
I always get frustrated when someone asks a question, want something to work - and is told "Read #thousands of pages or Stick to Windows!"
As if Linux isn't a system that can be used by other than programmers??? As if noone but programmers with plenty of spare time has the right to use Linux???
Stop harassing people with problems, people who write here to get some advice , people who just need to be productive!
If you don't like the question then don't answer it!

Cheers!
YYYYYEEEESSSSS!!!!!!!

Problem with forums is there are too many people who feel the need to "have their say" even if they have nothing constructive to offer.

I did not want a religious flame war - I just asked a question. Does anyone know fo a distro that supports multimedia out of the box.

If you know, reply. If you don't, don't.

If you want to say something regardless thats ok too, but not really what I was after.


Its quite simple really.


Last edited by ptay1685; 11-08-2005 at 03:15 PM.
 
Old 11-08-2005, 03:23 PM   #26
ptay1685
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Quote:
Originally posted by cp0ff
good luck ptay1685!
with whatever you decide on.
much has changed for the better in the world of Linux distros
since I first tried one, maybe oneday they'll impress you..
maybe not.. Im sure Bill's door is always open to you.

may your frustrations be trivial and short lived.

C.Poff
In may areas they do impress me now - just not in the multimedia arena. Very strange when you consider how big multimedia is these days.

I think too much of the effort being put into Linux is being diluted by too many me-too Frank Sinatra projects with lots of people trying to do the same thing but "their way". Perhaps people who want to achieve fame by putting their own name on a Linux distro.

Too many window managers, desktop managers, etc, but other areas completely lacking.

Then you get a project like Klear (I just discovered it) which is a DVB centered multimedia project (KDE based), but which is present only in a couple of Distros (Suse, Mandriva) and missing from the repositries of most of the other (PCLinuxOS, Ubuntu, etc).

It can be compiled from a CVS repositry but could not get the compile to work (par for the course).

I can install five or six different web browsers which all look much the same, but not a single DVB app.

Its too daft for words. So ill stop here.

 
Old 11-08-2005, 03:26 PM   #27
ptay1685
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Quote:
Originally posted by davcefai
This is becoming an "Is Linux ready for the Desktop" discussion.

I would guess that a distro like Linspire will have the minimum problems in this area because it is actually being aimed at the mass market. Mandrake ain't to bad either. Debian is definitely not mass market.

To try and answer the original question, Linspire or Mandrake may be the distro to go for. Note that both are "commercial". Somebody has put money into them and expects money from you. On the other hand you get direct support - which is really what uou are paying for anyway.
It wasnt my intention to start one.

But no, Linux is very far from being ready for the Desktop. Even Windows does not fullfil that criteria either.

There is really no well designed easy to use Desktop OS in existence yet. I think thats still a long way off.

 
Old 11-08-2005, 03:33 PM   #28
Nawar
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Quote:
Originally posted by ptay1685
I can't understand why the software author(s), who has already spent thousands of hours developing the software, cannot spend just another 10 minutes setting up the software so that it works.

Instead I have to spend hours searching and debugging to do what the developer, who knows the software inside out, could do in no time at all. Also, he is one person, whearas the users are many. If each user spends five hours to set up the software, and there are a million users, thats 5 million wasted hours.

I want to USE linux, not develope software for it or be an unpaid beta tester.

And what are all these distros for? Hundreds of different distros and none of them ever work properly. They seem to be there so that users can all choose different sets of bugs.

I install version one of a distro, and the DVD player will work. Next version and it no longer works. Next version and it starts working again. Next version there is no sound. Next version the sound comes back but the video dissappears. Next version it works again but crashes occasionally. Next version and no longer works at all. Round and round and round....

To my mind Linux is not so much advancing as going round in ever decreasing circles. When will these people ever just get it right?

If you want features and goodies to all work out of the box, then you need to *purchase* a distribution from a vendor that offers support.

ie - SuSE or Red Hat. You might even want to try LinSpire as it works fairly well out of the box with no learning curve, and has a lot of packages available for download. All of this comes with a price tag. However, if you run into problems, you are entitled to call or e-mail with questions and concerns.

Otherwise, the remainder of the *free as in beer* distros are all going to require effort on your part to make them work. If you have a hardware config that no one else has tried, there's going to be problems. If you are trying to make 2 pieces of software work together that weren't designed to work together, it's going to take time and effort on your part.

I don't know why *anyone* would think that all software was designed to run on *every* conceivable piece of hardware, and interoperate with *everY* other piece of software ever developed. That's just plain silly, if you ask me.

I'd have to say that the developers are doing you and I a favor in writing the software that they are interested in writing, without recompense in many cases. They do it because they are interested in solving a particular problem, or they enjoy writing software.

It's insulting to bash a developer because they didn't think of *your* specific hardware and software config.

Very few of the open source developers have access to many different hardware configurations to test things out on. That's where the user community comes in.

If you were to look on a forum or possibly a mailing list specific to the software you are trying to use, you may get help.... If you are polite, and specific in your request.

If you clearly lay out what you have for hardware, what distribution you are trying to run it on, what software you are hoping to make work together, you would have a resonable chance to get an answer that would be beneficial to you.

However, if you prefer to go to general linux help forums, and bash developers because you do not wish to spend a little time reading a release note, or digging on the web for a FAQ list, you may not get much of a response.

JMTCW,

Nawar

Last edited by Nawar; 11-08-2005 at 03:39 PM.
 
Old 11-08-2005, 04:01 PM   #29
Back_to_Linux
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peace and love.Why this war between windows and linux?
These don't play at the same place.
MS don't worry about linux, linux won't worry about MS.
The MS system is made for people who don't want use their brain to customize their box. For people who prefer use money to add features at their system. If they have money to closer program which they don't reach their need, it's their prblem. If you want customization, you must pay, wait for the final version, and pay for maintenance and update.
After, you will pay for the newest version, or if your suppliers fails, you need another one, and the newest are even more expensive.

Linux is made for people who want to undeerstand what is under the cap.
When you use windows, you use what is under your hand. Many things exist for windows, but the majority have a cost and all the update (or bug'sorrection) too.
With linux, approach is different : some entreprise make money with some product, but all people can use and develop the free version.
all windows seems like all windows.
all linux seems like its owner power user.
there are complementary in the reality which imose to us.
windows need a powerful box to act as server. Not linux.
linux is made to offer itself at all.
windows is made to take people in a jail.
i like windows. Because the F'webcam i bougth work only on windows.
But i love linux, because if something happens, my machine continue. Just my account crash.
all product i can need can be find, can be setting to my personal need, and in majority, they are free.
My contribution is to help.
But helpping doesn't mean make or do at the place.
All in the brain, are obtenained by myself, read documents and all i found in internet and book. Test and try to understand why it's not working.
At the beginning, there is very hard. But more i spend time, less i waste it.
i don't know everything, but i know how it's working, or i try to know its working.
In all world, 1+1=2 (in 10 base, HI!)
you can try to compile, and you get thousand of hundred messages of injure. you try to correct and you get still error message.
Maybe you don't read carrefully the readme.first or the install file texte.
Some time, a simple ./configure --help, learn you that you can exclude some feature, which cause these error message.
Some the path is not correct.
If you don't try and try again, never you can say :"I know". you'll just say :"I think".
OPEN.
All you heard, you retain it.
All you see, you remember it.
All you do, you know to do it.
 
Old 11-08-2005, 04:06 PM   #30
angkor
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Quote:
Originally posted by ptay1685

The fact is it is possible to do this, but people have not bothered, instead concentrating on designing logos, wallpapers and styles. They seem to put more effort into the web page than the distro. Anything you or I could do how much more so could those who have compiled the distro do? They have automated X configuration, network configuration, etc. This is not really any different. I see no excuse for it not to be done.
You show very little respect for the gnu developers working on many apps in their spare time for a 50+ man who's been a software developer for most of his life....

Quote:
Originally posted by ptay1685
If you went out and bought a DVD player which wouldnt play a DVD, and when you took it back to the shop were given a screwdriver and told to fix it, would you? And if you said you didnt want to be bothered to fix it and that it should work properly out of the box the smart alec salesperson said (like you have just done to me) "Well if you cant be bothered dont buy a DVD player" - what I wonder would your reaction be? Not I am sure the reaction you had to my post.
You didnt buy Ubuntu now did you...? If someone gave you a DVD player and it didnt work would you expect that person to fix it for you?

Anyhow, it strikes me as very odd that you've been developing software longer than I'm alive and it takes you "hours searching and debugging" just to get multimedia to work on any distro.

Good luck.

Last edited by angkor; 11-08-2005 at 04:07 PM.
 
  


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