LinuxQuestions.org
Welcome to the most active Linux Forum on the web.
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Linux Forums > Linux - Software
User Name
Password
Linux - Software This forum is for Software issues.
Having a problem installing a new program? Want to know which application is best for the job? Post your question in this forum.

Notices

Reply
 
Search this Thread
Old 11-03-2009, 01:30 AM   #16
mejohnsn
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 172

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: Disabled

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishbitte View Post
BTW, you may find the article here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EeePC and here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EeePC/Installation helpful. The author talks about wanting to reduce amount of writes to a SSD, hence suggests using ext2 instead of ext3. It has drawbacks, mainly if your netbook crashes. Very strong on not having a swap partition, suggests using a swap file instead.
Thanks for providing the articles. Unfortunately, they have too many non-committal "weasel-words", especially the second (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EeePC/Installation), which weasels out of making a commitment by saying "some people say" A, and "some people say" NOT A.

This is not helpful, especially when they are so coy about stating the reasons for each side's assertion. There is a right answer out there, it has to be either A or not A, it is cannot be both.

BTW: the 2nd article talks about hibernation not working well w/o a swap partition -- but I never saw hibernation work under Linux on any of my laptops anyway!

It is an open secret that hibernation does not work very well on Linux laptops in the first place; rumor has it that the reason is that the OEMs have been coy about releasing ACPI implementation info (e.g. their own bugs: Google "acpi bugs linux"). Using Ubuntu, I could not get even Suspend to work right on my Toshiba laptop: that is why I run Fedora there now.

So the alleged inability to do hibernation is no skin off my back.
 
Old 11-03-2009, 06:07 AM   #17
irishbitte
Senior Member
 
Registered: Oct 2007
Location: Brighton, UK
Distribution: Ubuntu Hardy, Ubuntu Jaunty, Eeebuntu, Debian, SME-Server
Posts: 1,213
Blog Entries: 1

Rep: Reputation: 82
In fairness, regarding the hibernation issue I have a HP laptop, Intel chipset, and it will hibernate, though in effect, it is powering off having written the contents of RAM to disk, and is not a true ACPI hibernation. Suspend works very well tho, which can only work with ACPI knowledge. Regarding your assertion:
Quote:
This is not helpful, especially when they are so coy about stating the reasons for each side's assertion. There is a right answer out there, it has to be either A or not A, it is cannot be both.
I'm not so sure you're right. The truth is, no matter what you do, you cannot make an SSD behave in the same fashion as a magnetic disk. Even a USB stick will eventually stop working. What may be interresting to look at is peoples experience running linux from a USB stick. In terms of limiting writebacks, it must rank as a similar exercise.
 
Old 11-04-2009, 05:01 PM   #18
mejohnsn
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 172

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Quote:
Originally Posted by irishbitte View Post
In fairness, regarding the hibernation issue I have a HP laptop, Intel chipset, and it will hibernate, though in effect, it is powering off having written the contents of RAM to disk, and is not a true ACPI hibernation. Suspend works very well tho, which can only work with ACPI knowledge. Regarding your assertion: I'm not so sure you're right. The truth is, no matter what you do, you cannot make an SSD behave in the same fashion as a magnetic disk. Even a USB stick will eventually stop working. What may be interresting to look at is peoples experience running linux from a USB stick. In terms of limiting writebacks, it must rank as a similar exercise.
But of course I am right. It is logically impossible for me NOT to be right on that issue: the answer is either 'A' or 'not A', it cannot be both. Ever hear of the "law of the excluded middle"?

As for "making an SSD behave in the same fashion as a magnetic disk", you are muddying the waters by substituting a different issue for the real issue. I am not now nor have I ever asked for "making an SSD behave in the same fashion as a magnetic disk".

If there is anyone doing this, it would be the authors of the disk drivers (and/or code interpreting fstab), who may have willy-nilly assumed that 'disk' means 'magnetic disk'. Or it would be the people who decided that Linux should default to using ext3/4 filesystems. But this would be a violation of a cardinal rule of software engineering viz. the principle of "information hiding" or "separating implementation from interface". But nothing in this thread conclusively shows that this is what happened, either.

Finally, why do you contradict yourself, saying OTOH, "it will hibernate", but then immediately contradicting yourself, admitting that it is "not a true ACPI hibernation"? What possible benefit could the readers of this thread get out of such contradiction?

BTW: Fedora 11 hibernation does not work on this Toshiba laptop I am typing on right now. Neither did Ubuntu's. 'Suspend' works well much of the time, but certainly not always: I often lose audio when coming back from the suspend state, sometimes I even lose the NetworkManager applet. The only workaround I have found is to reboot.

A brief glance at the Redhat bug list in Mozilla shows that such problems have been in Fedora/RedHat for years, and my experience is not at all unique.

So please refrain from confusing beginners by making breezy and false generalizations about how well suspend and hibernate work, just because it worked on YOUR systems.
 
Old 11-06-2009, 07:42 PM   #19
irishbitte
Senior Member
 
Registered: Oct 2007
Location: Brighton, UK
Distribution: Ubuntu Hardy, Ubuntu Jaunty, Eeebuntu, Debian, SME-Server
Posts: 1,213
Blog Entries: 1

Rep: Reputation: 82
If you think I am muddying the waters, thats fair enough. This is not the linux newbies forum, and I figured I was chatting & relating my experiences, in the hope that they may be helpful to someone. It is up to you and everyone else to take or leave from what you read.

[QUOTE]finally, why do you contradict yourself, saying OTOH, "it will hibernate", but then immediately contradicting yourself, admitting that it is "not a true ACPI hibernation"? What possible benefit could the readers of this thread get out of such contradiction?[QUOTE] I will say on this, that when i hibernate the machine, it does what you expect, however, when I say it is not true ACPI, I am referring to the implementation of hibernate in ubuntu, which is to write the contents of RAM to disk, then power off the machine. In that sense, it is not true hibernation.

Your other point about being logically right or not, is your opinion. Let everyone else make up their own mind. The issue of SSD storage applies to live booting USB just as much as netbooks, since they are both Solid State, and one would assume the rules for preserving the lifetime of one may apply to the other, or at least, lessons could be learned.

Above all, I should state, Your Mileage May Vary. To anyone following this thread, I hope you have gained from it, even if the OP has not.
 
Old 11-07-2009, 01:46 AM   #20
mejohnsn
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 172

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishbitte View Post
If you think I am muddying the waters, thats fair enough. This is not the linux newbies forum, and I figured I was chatting & relating my experiences, in the hope that they may be helpful to someone. It is up to you and everyone else to take or leave from what you read.
...
Your other point about being logically right or not, is your opinion.
This is patently false. You cannot weasel out of responsibility by labeling whatever you choose as 'opinion'.

Quote:
Let everyone else make up their own mind. The issue of SSD storage applies to live booting USB just as much as netbooks, since they are both Solid State, and one would assume the rules for preserving the lifetime of one may apply to the other, or at least, lessons could be learned.

Above all, I should state, Your Mileage May Vary. To anyone following this thread, I hope you have gained from it, even if the OP has not.
Unfortunately, since you are still posting confused misinformation instead of information, it will be very difficult for anyone to gain from from it.

And yes, it really is misinformation. This is because contrary to your supposition, the case of a USB live boot disk and that of a SSD main disk (in my case, /dev/sda1) are very different. In the former, the write takes place only when the USB disk is being created. After that, by design, the system does only reads.

But when the main disk is SSD, the situation is quite different. The main disk is written far more frequently. It is not written only when created.

Of course, the reason this difference is so significant is that it is only writes on an SSD/flash drive that cause wear. Reads do not.

That said, our exchange has made clear one point that should have been clear to me at the beginning: /dev/sda1 still does not get that many writes, since the /tmp file is not on /dev/sda1. So changing ext3 to use writeback does not make as big a difference as I had hoped for. So also, your suggestion of moving the data files in home off of the SSD
is better than I originally thought: but the problem with it was that moving it to a networked file system is not a practical option for a netbook.

Now I would like to believe that your expressed desire to be helpful is genuine. But you need to make two changes to the way you post to achieve this.

1) make sure that what you post is based on information, not hearsay or other forms of misinformation
2) make sure your suggestions are appropriate to the situation.

Do these things and you will find you do not need to spend time and waste bandwidth on defending yourself for the decisions you made in posting.
 
  


Reply

Tags
ext3, fstab, journaling, mint, x11


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
disable journaling on ext3 Andrastus Linux - Hardware 11 02-02-2010 06:08 PM
Ext3 Journaling level on Debian Etch kingpotnoodle Debian 10 06-28-2007 08:01 AM
ReiserFS versus Ext3 journaling options betancoj Suse/Novell 1 02-17-2006 07:54 PM
journaling modes in ext3 file system lucky123 Linux - Newbie 2 04-14-2005 11:03 PM
ext3 - what journaling mode do you use? Haldir Linux - Newbie 1 04-07-2002 12:34 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:44 PM.

Main Menu
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
identi.ca: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration