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Old 09-13-2006, 07:54 PM   #301
angryfirelord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pengu
Previously, price has not been an advantage to using linux- as windows comes with almost every computer at no additional charge. However, with these "6 versions" of windows, things will change.

Microsoft is going to start using "license upgrades" for vista. Obviously, this means that hw vendors will ship their computers with "basic", and you will have to pay hundreds of dollars to upgrade.

This new money making scheme from microsoft will almost certinally drive windows powerusers to linux.

Prices:
Vista Ultimate: $400
Vista Home Premium: $240
Vista Home Basic: $200

Upgrade Prices:
Vista Ultimate: $260
Vista Home Premium: $150
Vista Home Basic: $100

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows...ns_and_pricing)

That is crazy, for the price of the fully featured version of windows, I could buy a new p.c. that would run linux twice as fast!



well said! i'm adding that to my sig
Actually, when you buy a new computer, a lot of that is Microsoft tax. Computer vendors get great deals from hardware OEMs because they buy huge amount of their stuff, but Microsoft adds like $60 to the price (I think). That's why no-OS systems are cheaper. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

Regardless, it's ridiculous to pay $200 for a (bloated) operating system. As I continue to game less, my dependency for Windows apps has grown smaller so Linux is gaining momentum with me (~75% there!). Most people don't game anyway, they just do basic tasks like web surf and write documents which can be easily done in Linux.

I'm waiting for Ulteo to see if it can bring competition to Ubuntu.
 
Old 09-13-2006, 08:58 PM   #302
Dralnu
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Windows biggest competator isn't Linux, its Cedega. Linux does just about anything Windows does faster, safer, and sometimes easier. What it doesn't do, it can be made to do, safer, faster, and easier.

Windows only plus are games, and Cedega is oging strong, and its going to take nothing short of something drastic from the MS people to kill it, in which case it may only slow development by a year at worst.
 
Old 09-14-2006, 10:53 AM   #303
ctkroeker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralnu
Windows only plus are games, and Cedega is oging strong, and its going to take nothing short of something drastic from the MS people to kill it, in which case it may only slow development by a year at worst.
I have to disagree that Windows' plus is only games. It's also the most widespread, so it has a huge user base that thinks "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Another advantage Windows has is that most Programs are written only for it (as are most drivers), but this has already been disgussed a thousen times.
 
Old 09-14-2006, 01:09 PM   #304
Dralnu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctkroeker
I have to disagree that Windows' plus is only games. It's also the most widespread, so it has a huge user base that thinks "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Another advantage Windows has is that most Programs are written only for it (as are most drivers), but this has already been disgussed a thousen times.
I seriously doubt that having a large user base is a plus. Thats kind of like saying a religion is right if the most people follow it, but thats just my opinion.
As for programs work for it, the fact alot of the more widely spread apps already have a linux equal (OOo, for example) kind of makes that point ignorable. Only problem with apps like OOo is that it takes awhile to load, but with OOo Quickstart, that time is reduced quite a bit.
As for the drivers, the support for hardware in Linux is getting better from day to day, with the only big problem recently I have heard of being ATI drivers for graphics cards, which can easily be fixed by just using nVidia cards instead. Other hardware pretty much is covered, and if it isn't, you just need to wait a month or two (maybe 6, depending on how the hardware works) for a working driver in linux.
 
Old 09-14-2006, 05:16 PM   #305
DJNolz83
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Dralnu wrote:
Quote:
As for the drivers, the support for hardware in Linux is getting better from day to day, with the only big problem recently I have heard of being ATI drivers for graphics cards, which can easily be fixed by just using nVidia cards instead. Other hardware pretty much is covered, and if it isn't, you just need to wait a month or two (maybe 6, depending on how the hardware works) for a working driver in linux.
That is exactly the reason why people are afraid to make the switch: They are too afriad that thier hardware will not work.
Yes, it is true that the HCL is comprehensive, but, coming from a world where all you need to do is plug something in, and reboot (at worst), People are just not game enough to change over and find out if thier hardware does work with Linux.
People dont want to wait 6 months for thier hardware to work properly. People want stuff, and they want it now. It is the nature of the beast.

The fact that ATI drivers for graphics cards is a bit shaky at the moment is pretty bad in itself. No disrespect intended, Dralnu, but your suggestion of an "easy fix" of buying an Nvidia graphics card is nonsence and was exactly what I was talking about just in the above paragraph. Sure, there are Nvidia cards out there that you can pick up for <$200(AUS) but, if that were the case, why not just wait, put that $200 towards a savings account and raid it once Vista comes out anyway?

ctkroeker wrote:
Quote:
I have to disagree that Windows' plus is only games. It's also the most widespread, so it has a huge user base that thinks "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Another advantage Windows has is that most Programs are written only for it (as are most drivers), but this has already been disgussed a thousen times.
ct: you are right when you say that Windows is the most widespread. You are wrong when you say it has a huge user base. The user base is MASSIVE. Dralnu is quite correct when he says that Linux can do all of what windows can do, and better. There is a lot of stuff that I wish I could do in Windows that I can do in Linux.
The fact that most programs are written only for windows is just a reflection of the fact that the user base is so extensive. If it wasnt for the over-sized, under-educated user-base, the market would not be flooded with 17 different programs that end up doing the same thing. Most drivers are only written for windows because most, not all, hardware companies are too ignorant to open up thier minds to the fact that there is something else out there, and do something a little "different".

 
Old 09-14-2006, 05:36 PM   #306
Dralnu
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Quote:
That is exactly the reason why people are afraid to make the switch: They are too afriad that thier hardware will not work.
Yes, it is true that the HCL is comprehensive, but, coming from a world where all you need to do is plug something in, and reboot (at worst), People are just not game enough to change over and find out if thier hardware does work with Linux.
People dont want to wait 6 months for thier hardware to work properly. People want stuff, and they want it now. It is the nature of the beast.

The fact that ATI drivers for graphics cards is a bit shaky at the moment is pretty bad in itself. No disrespect intended, Dralnu, but your suggestion of an "easy fix" of buying an Nvidia graphics card is nonsence and was exactly what I was talking about just in the above paragraph. Sure, there are Nvidia cards out there that you can pick up for <$200(AUS) but, if that were the case, why not just wait, put that $200 towards a savings account and raid it once Vista comes out anyway?
People are also afraid that linux isn't stable, and remains in beta too long. Doesn't mean that what they believe is the truth.

As for hardware not working right when you plug it in, the diffrences in alot of hardware these days between one version and the next is usually something minor, as hardware devs are running into issues with limits to their current tech, which slows down development.
Graphics cards currently, I don't see the big diff between ATI cards and nVidia cards outside of support. I run Linux, so if I want a high-end card, I'll get an nVidia. I havn't seen anything outside of Raedon selling a 512 RAM card before GeForce that would be any major change.

As for waiting for Vista's release, right after Vista is put on shelves, hardware prices are going to go up quite a bit as people upgrade their good systems to run the "new and improved" bloat. It will take awhile before prices will drop (which is why I'm tempted to put stock into Intel proccessors).

But, to each his own
 
Old 09-14-2006, 06:14 PM   #307
DJNolz83
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Quote:
As for hardware not working right when you plug it in, the diffrences in alot of hardware these days between one version and the next is usually something minor, as hardware devs are running into issues with limits to their current tech, which slows down development.
The same could be said about a lot of versions of software.
For example: Microsoft Office. I believe that one of the majhor differences with micosoft office in the new version coming out as opposed to the old version is that "clippy" will no longer be with us. Thats right, Clippy is no longer being included as part of the default installation. I am led to believe that M$ are phasing him and his cohorts out over time.

Quote:
Graphics cards currently, I don't see the big diff between ATI cards and nVidia cards outside of support. I run Linux, so if I want a high-end card, I'll get an nVidia. I havn't seen anything outside of Raedon selling a 512 RAM card before GeForce that would be any major change.
From what I have seen, there is no real differences between ATI and Nvidia. If anything, there is only really a poofteenth of difference between the two. I only run Nvidia cards on any machine and they are my preferred card/s of choice.
Reason the first: they are EASY as pie to set up. ( then again, so are ATI cards)
Reason the second: are generally cheaper than ATI equivilant - but offer comparible if not better performance
Reason the third: Have not had an issue with these cards

Quote:
But, to each his own
That is EVER so true!
 
Old 09-15-2006, 12:48 AM   #308
nre999
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This is just my two cents and can be taken for what it is, but I find it very interesting the conversations on many forums and message boards in regards to Microsoft and Windows. While many people may disagree with the business practices of Microsoft, and how they choose to develop software, those two factors do not a bad OS make.

The reality of the situation is this, Microsoft is where it is simply because it made it easier for everyone to have the same "stuff" while computing. You can buy a computer from anywhere and as long as it has Windows it will be similar to any other computer that has Windows. The only difference then is hardware.

While I do not wish to get into a debate regarding the merits of Linux (or any other *nix OS) in comparison to that of Windows and even extending it to Mac OS - it is important to note that different OS's exist in virtue of the audiences that choose to use them.

The piasness of many Linux users, I believe, is unfounded and can boarder on prejudicial. It seems to be a widely held contention that people who use Windows are uneducated. This is troublesome to me. The prevailing attitude seems to be that those who do not choose to use linux are missing something by not switching to Linux is a dangerous thing.

The fact is the three most common platforms exist to serve different populations and each of have the capacity to be the best solution for any given person. The truth is, not everyone has a desire to know and understand the minute details of what computing fully entails - many people just need a computer to do simple tasks - while Linux COULD be that kind of solution (as Ubuntu tries to be) it will at best be a novelty to the casual user, much like Mac OS - simply in virtue of Microsoft's current dominance (whether that is the problem or not is a matter of economics, business ethics and socio-economical considerations).

To be honest, if there is going to be a revolution in desktop computing that causes Windows to regress into a vague memory, it will not come at the hands of Linux (and certainly not Mac OS). Infact I think the irrelevance of Windows as an operating system will most likely come with the next evolution of the internet - whatever that may be.

You see everyone has something that pushes their buttons, makes them feel good about themselves and gives them passion. It can range from computing to bee keeping and much like the rest of life, it all comes down to preference.

To get back on topic - I will definitely get Vista simply to try it out and to see how it is to use it - the same reason why I use Mac OS, Windows XP, Ubuntu, Zenwalk, Elive and Dreamlinux - just to play around - cause that is what I do, it keeps me from getting too bored and driving my wife crazy.
 
Old 09-15-2006, 09:17 AM   #309
Dralnu
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I think some of the problems with Windows merit it as a bad OS. With the surge of the Internet, security is a high priority, and currently, Windows is about as secure as a wet cardboard box. Granted it makes life easier, but thats only for people who have only used Windows. Wizards and Clippy do not an easy time make.

I'm not sure if I agree with your thoughts on Windows finally dying off because of some unknown 5th (I'm taking it as you left out *BSD on accident here) OS, but it is an interesting idea. The problem with that sort of thing it, it takes a long time to build a dev base, and even longer to get good hardware compatability, but in either case it will be interesting to see what could come.
 
Old 09-15-2006, 03:31 PM   #310
schneidz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angryfirelord
Actually, when you buy a new computer, a lot of that is Microsoft tax. Computer vendors get great deals from hardware OEMs because they buy huge amount of their stuff, but Microsoft adds like $60 to the price (I think). That's why no-OS systems are cheaper. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

...
windowsrefund.info has an article about obtaining the cost back from unused software:

http://windowsrefund.info/modules.ph...article&sid=19

Last edited by schneidz; 09-18-2006 at 11:15 AM.
 
Old 09-15-2006, 05:24 PM   #311
Dralnu
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[QUOTE=schneidz]
Quote:
Originally Posted by angryfirelord
Actually, when you buy a new computer, a lot of that is Microsoft tax. Computer vendors get great deals from hardware OEMs because they buy huge amount of their stuff, but Microsoft adds like $60 to the price (I think). That's why no-OS systems are cheaper. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

...QUOTE]

windowsrefund.info has an article about obtaining the cost back from unused software:

http://windowsrefund.info/modules.ph...article&sid=19
Interesting side note on pricing: A system from EmperorLinux without Windows gives you back 90 dollars: Enough almost for the CPU upgrade/RAM uprgade
 
Old 09-16-2006, 03:03 PM   #312
nre999
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Dralnu: Don't get me wrong, I am not a Microsoft apologist - I am just a proponant of a balanced view of things and by no means to I think that Microsoft is the best solution - my point was that for some people it simply is (flaws and all) - just like Linux, or BSD or Mac OS are for other people (despite their flaws - and they all have them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralnu
I'm not sure if I agree with your thoughts on Windows finally dying off because of some unknown 5th (I'm taking it as you left out *BSD on accident here) OS, but it is an interesting idea. The problem with that sort of thing it, it takes a long time to build a dev base, and even longer to get good hardware compatability, but in either case it will be interesting to see what could come.
As far as my point is concerned, I didn't mention BSD because this is a Linux board, and I only mentioned Mac OS because I had mentioned it earlier. Frankly, I feel that the next revolution in desktop computing will make OS's irrelevant (in the sense that it won't matter which OS you have) as, at some point, it will make the most economic sense for software vendors to provide hosted applications - or something similar along those lines... I dunno - maybe it will be something no one can imagine or is expecting - but you are right it is interesting to think about.
 
Old 09-16-2006, 04:06 PM   #313
Dralnu
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What you seem to be saying is that everyone will be running a terminal from a central server (only way I can think of not having to use an OS yourself). Personally, I'm not sure if such a thing would be worthwhile, as, currently, just the sheer amount of traffic and stress that would be put on the server would be immense.

I could see a programing company creating a program that you just download a client, and run the app online, but this itself could cause problems if you get into long-distance (and by this I mean running through 15-20 servers) transmissions.

An example:
I was having trouble connecting to irc.freenode.net (this did happen), and so, after a few tries, decided to figure out what was wrong. So what I did, first thing, was opened up a term, and;

mtr irc.freenode.net

Guess what. I was lossing 25% of all sent packages at one server (in a list of 22), and 50% at another. This was rediculous. I later reconnected and was sent through without a problem (had to reconnect so I was going through a better set of servers).

Ok, now, lets up this to a game. Lets say, an Unreal spin-off. Player A connects through 6 servers, since they live in the same country. Player B is in South Africa, and has to go through 30+ servers. The problem here would arise that if, say, Player B's 17th server were to get a surge of usage and 30% of the packets sent and received were lost, that could cause trouble on his end, while Player A is still getting 100%.

Moving on to another issue: You run AutoCAD durning the day as an engineer, contracted out from a company to desgin the transmission for a new, high-powered, hydrogen-fueled dump truck with an estimated load of 4 tons and (insert engine specs here). You get through the major parts of the design, but are running short on time. Well, you jump on to try and finish it, and after starting up the program, you spend 20 minutes trying to mess with something that, before you went totally net-based, took you 20 seconds. You call tech support, and they calmly reply "We had a problem and half our servers went down. Remain calm and they should be back up within 24 hours". Bit extreme, but I think my point is made

That aside, that is taking into account the generally poor server selection of a transmitted package, which is based on latency instead of location. If tihngs were reorganized (which I think may be in the works, I'm not sure) to be based on both latency and distance (Why spend a package next door, and end up transmitting the packages through Africa and China?), with enhancements done to the servers where there is high traffic.



I could see the sale of software becoming purely transmission-based, but that I would shy aware from, for the simple fact that you cann't take an electric charge and ram it down someone throat if it doesn't work, and they act like an asshole about it.
 
Old 09-18-2006, 11:25 AM   #314
schneidz
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to add to dralnu, this would be like a thin-client - mainframe network. I dont think we are close enough to support an internet wide server-side application network.

an x-server has the ability to forward gui programs to an x-client. in this thread i explain the issues i have with veiwing an .avi movie file routed via a 10 mb/s wired ethernet.

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...d.php?t=478454
 
Old 09-18-2006, 11:28 AM   #315
the_darkside_986
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I do not plan on purchasing Windows Vista, but if I can get it for free with MSDNAA (Academic Alliance) at my university, then I might consider it... or not. The only thing I can do special with Windows is play commercial games. (Cedega isn't free, as far as I know.) But my system, while it is fairly new, isn't very capable of playing lots of games that well. It barely plays Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas and Black & White 2. However, those are both gfx card issues. The idiots at HP put a freakin' ATI Radeon X200 in my desktop system... But at $350 for the whole system (w/o monitor), what can I say?

I am very impressed with Suse Linux 10.1. My only problems were a major *****'d up screen at the graphical login (totallly unusable), which I fixed by typing sax2-vesa at failsafe mode, and of course, the evil winmodem issue which I finally figured out how to fix. I just need to download a new ATI driver so I can enable 3-D support and thus play all those free open source 3D games that came with my distro.

With the exception of Space Pinball and Solitaire,Windows has never impressed me with a good selection of free games (free in the sense that the OS price payed for them). I mean, I do not count those 30 minute trial crappy games as something worthwile. I am not paying $30 for some stupid 2-D game about a grandma and her cats when I could buy, for example, a real game like Heroes of Might and Magic 4 for a lesser price. The linux distro that I chose came with a bunch of free games that are graphically and gameplay-wise superior to the HP (as an example) trial version games.

Yes, I did have a few serious hardware issues with linux, but Windows isn't guilt-free either. Last year, I could hardly get my modem(s) to work on Windows XP Pro (the USB modem issue was never fixed.) It didn't cost me anything to install it since I checked it out from the school (MSDNAA), but I was very disappointed with something that was supposed to be a quality commercial OS.
And I kept getting infected with mal-ware, which was mostly my fault, but I'm not paying $70 just for security that should be already built in to the OS. Finally I gave up on it and installed Redhat 9 over it instead. I meant to dual-boot but Partition Magic screwed up something so that Windows wouldn't boot.

Anyone remember Windows 98? That OS was so awful that everytime the phone rang at my house, the whole system would freeze. I'm not joking. That was one of the first things we had to fix when I first received that $1500 machine. (That's the one that has Redhat 9 on it now.)

If that thing about progressive Windows Vista versions and upgrading is true, then I can imagine major commercial games requiring a $100 Windows update in order to play them. For example, a Halo game that, when attempting to install, says, "You gotta buy the latest expensive version of Windows Vista in order to run this software." The h4x0rs will be able to resolve those problems I'm sure, just like the PSP homebrew community has found a way to play new releases without updating the PSP system firmware.

About the Win32 viruses and Linux viruses, I've a question: if a virus on Windows runs via a stack smash, does the attack get to run any code regardless of who is logged in, admin or user? Does it depend on the executable that gets hi-jacked? This is just a question I've been curious about and I need to learn how to be careful in Windows. I try to do everything as non-admin in Windows, but I am still paranoid that attacks from my lesser account might damage my system. I have a lot of stuff set up on Windows--especially emulators--so I can't quit using Windows completely until I get every equivalent set up on Suse Linux.

Last edited by the_darkside_986; 09-18-2006 at 11:33 AM.
 
  


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