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Old 07-11-2006, 04:34 AM   #196
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fraz
Seems like an odd reason! No OS is unremovable.
Duh.

The point is that I don't want to have to pay for something I will delete within 5 minutes of getting it home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fraz
If thats your reason buy a computer and wipe the HD.
And end up paying a third more than I would have by building it myself??

You missed the point.
 
Old 07-11-2006, 04:39 AM   #197
fraz
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ok maybe but OS prices on top of hardware are usually minimal cos they don't give you the disks. anyway we are arguing for no good reason since we both build our own. I gotta say since I started building in ~1998 I'd never buy a prebuilt system again. Except maybe for a laptop. An alienware laptop. *drool*
 
Old 07-11-2006, 05:13 AM   #198
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fraz
ok maybe but OS prices on top of hardware are usually minimal cos they don't give you the disks.
There is a premium on the hardware when you buy a complete system. The software is "factored in."
Quote:
Originally Posted by fraz
anyway we are arguing for no good reason since we both build our own. I gotta say since I started building in ~1998 I'd never buy a prebuilt system again. Except maybe for a laptop. An alienware laptop. *drool*
My first was a 486DX2 with 8 megs RAM and a 330 Meg HD.

Yeah, those alienware laptops look pretty good. Of course, in my hands it'd be converted into a Slacktop(tm) pretty quickly.
 
Old 07-11-2006, 03:22 PM   #199
KimVette
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenOfOdin
Anyway, the MSH thing that they tried including in Vista during its Palladium/Longhorn stage seemed like a rip off to me.
My response to this is prettu much what I posted on Slashdot regarding this same exact subject: if bash is "licensed" under BSD, and even if Microsoft were to incorporate all of that code as allowed by the BSD license, how exactly is Microsoft ripping them off? Are they sending microserfs to BSD developers' homes to steal the CDs, depriving the developers of their property? Or, are they merely exercising their right as allowed by the copyright notice included with all BSD "licensed" code?


. . . inquiring minds want to know. I'm puzzled by that statement that it seems like a ripoff. the
 
Old 07-11-2006, 03:24 PM   #200
secretservgy
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Vista is just another bloated version of windoze, pointlessy using your resources (of course if you dont know what that is you are probly only using windows), like really, transparency isnt a new thing in computer industry, thats a waste of resources.
Windows=only virus you have to pay for
 
Old 07-11-2006, 03:28 PM   #201
KimVette
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen
Oh the irony.

Microsoft is neither competitive nor innovative.

Examples:

Innovation: Translucent windows appeared in Linux almost 4 years ago. They are only now just appearing in MS beta products.

Competition: Netscape Navigator was the most popular web browser until... MS tied Internet Exploder into Windows and flatly refused to make it removable. They even lied in court about it.
Microsoft gained market share in the browser arena because MSIE 3.0 was initially vastly superior to the Netscape of the time and that trend continued through the death of Netscape then its rebirth as an open product which spawned Mozilla. Remember Netscape 4? The development version of Netscape 5, which was SO bad it never made it into an official beta binary release? Other browsers stagnated, konqueror flat-out sucked in the early days, and Microsoft was steadily forging ahead, and yes, they "embraced and extended" the standards (and neglected to implement certain aspects as well), then once it was patently obvious they won the browser wars which reinforced their OS monopoly, they killed off all but the Mac and Wintel releases of MSIE. You want IE for Solaris, an Alpha windows box, PPC windows box, or MIPS windows box? Too bad. They killed off competitor browsers of the time, killed off DEC and SGI (SGI became a whitebox PC vendor for a while, and haven't produced a significant IRIX update since the mid-late '90s), and damn near well killed off Sun.

Where Microsoft is truly innovative is their development environment. There is NO other IDE I have ever seen which comes close to Visual Studio.
 
Old 07-11-2006, 05:10 PM   #202
Penguin of Wonder
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Visual Studio is damn good. I don't care who you are.
 
Old 07-11-2006, 06:20 PM   #203
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KimVette
Microsoft gained market share in the browser arena because MSIE 3.0 was initially vastly superior to the Netscape of the time
And where did IE originate from? Did Microsoft write it from scratch? Or did they buy the little browser formerly known as "Mosaic"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimVette
Remember Netscape 4? The development version of Netscape 5
I think you're a bit confused there. Netscape 4.xx was plenty usable and it had many features that IE didn't. It was my primary browser for at least 3 years.

Netscape 5 was the development version of Netscape 6 and was based on the Mozilla "milestone" releases. Many in the Mozilla crowd were displeased with Netscape's choice to release version 6 because it was so buggy.

The only problems I ever had with Netscape 4.xx were caused by Windows itself. Was it a co-incidence that "security" updates for Windows 98 would break Netscape? This happened almost without fail. It was virtually expected that you'd have to download & install a new version of Netscape after applying a Windows security patch.

The tabs which have appeared in recent IE betas are a perfect example of Microsoft "innovating" ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimVette
Where Microsoft is truly innovative is their development environment. There is NO other IDE I have ever seen which comes close to Visual Studio.
You're probably right. I've never used Visual Studio.

Last edited by rkelsen; 07-11-2006 at 06:22 PM.
 
Old 07-11-2006, 06:56 PM   #204
raska
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen
The tabs which have appeared in recent IE betas are a perfect example of Microsoft "innovating" ...
LOL!!!

I have used tabs for web browsing since Opera 6.0 dated 18.12.2001, which was called "multiple document interface (MDI)", but I don't know if there were any previous versions with tabbed-browsing

(yup, I still used windoze back then) --bad raska, no cookie--

Firefox is dated late 2004 so clearly it didn't introduce them tabs.
 
Old 07-11-2006, 07:14 PM   #205
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raska
Firefox is dated late 2004 so clearly it didn't introduce them tabs.
Ah, but they appeared even earlier in Mozilla version 0.9.5 which was released around Sep/Oct 2001...

http://www.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla0.9.5/

But that is moot, since according to this timeline:

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/008433.html

tabs first appeared in a browser called "Netcaptor" in 1997...

So there you have it. Microsoft's "innovation" department created a new feature 10 years after it first appeared...

Last edited by rkelsen; 07-11-2006 at 07:16 PM.
 
Old 07-11-2006, 11:27 PM   #206
KimVette
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen
And where did IE originate from? Did Microsoft write it from scratch? Or did they buy the little browser formerly known as "Mosaic"?
MSIE was almost completely rewritten between the joke that was 1.0 and version 3.0, which was arguably the first usable version of IE. The reason it retains the credits is that they are contractually obligated to do so.

Quote:
I think you're a bit confused there. Netscape 4.xx was plenty usable and it had many features that IE didn't. It was my primary browser for at least 3 years.
Netscape 4.0 was a festering turd. 4.7 and 4.8 were even worse.

Last edited by KimVette; 07-11-2006 at 11:33 PM.
 
Old 07-12-2006, 12:33 AM   #207
rkelsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KimVette
MSIE was almost completely rewritten between the joke that was 1.0 and version 3.0 ... The reason it retains the credits is that they are contractually obligated to do so.
And you know this because you work at Microsoft?

Outside Redmond, nobody will ever really know what is in their code.

They'll tell you anything to make you use it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimVette
Netscape 4.0 was a festering turd. 4.7 and 4.8 were even worse.
Maybe by modern standards, but back then it was widely used with great success.
 
Old 07-12-2006, 09:58 AM   #208
raska
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkelsen
Outside Redmond, nobody will ever really know what is in their code.
They'll tell you anything to make you use it.
That's true as hell.

You can't even tell if any version of IE have had some code to avoid linux-talking and MS-flaming web sites. Opportune crashing might do the job.

PS: thanks for the timeline link
 
Old 07-12-2006, 02:39 PM   #209
schneidz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KimVette
... they killed off all but the Mac and Wintel releases of MSIE. You want IE for Solaris, an Alpha windows box, PPC windows box, or MIPS windows box? Too bad. They killed off competitor browsers of the time, killed off DEC and SGI (SGI became a whitebox PC vendor for a while, and haven't produced a significant IRIX update since the mid-late '90s), and damn near well killed off Sun...

this is unrelated, but aside from win ce that runs on intel xscale, i didn't know there was any windows desktop that didn't run on an x86 or an ia-64. we always talk about windows being pc (i.e.- intel x86). a dec alpha running windows 98 just sounds strange?

yankees sux.
 
Old 07-12-2006, 02:40 PM   #210
Penguin of Wonder
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You can't tell what's in their code, but you can tell they're mean to competitors through the way their servers treat browsers. I saw a page on Opera's site once where they demonstrated how Micorsoft's servers forced the Opera browser to load MS pages slower than IE. Thats a nastey way to force our your competitor.
 
  


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