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Old 01-11-2012, 07:53 PM   #16
unSpawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbowsally View Post
Are they or aren't they opaque? Are windows binaries visible? If the sources do NOT match the binary
Do understand that source packages contain code with which to build binaries to run.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbowsally View Post
And in the case of openSUSE, if you are already root and you run kdesu, not only will it crash but it will take drkonqi with it -- and no bug report can EVER get out to the developers.
Then file a bug report against drkonqi before filing a bug report against kdesu.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbowsally View Post
what I might need to do if I reinstall -- to keep my old linux in the loop.
Simple: make a backup.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rainbowsally View Post
I used the grub2 option to update legacy (the "linux way") which supposedly DOES work with older grubs without success too.
Like I said before openSuSE 11.3 came with GRUB. In 11.4 GRUB2 is optional. Even openSUSE 12.1 boots grub-0.97-177.1 by default. From the openSUSE 12.1 Product highlights you can read: "We also again provide grub2 as an optional bootloader. While we are still not satisfied with GRUB2 as a replacement for the current GRUB, we encourage users to try it out, and want to make sure it is available for developers." Ergo it should be the users informed decision to take the necessary precautions (read the necessary documentation, assess the risk, make backups and ensure they can be restored) and proceed at their own risk.

As far as documentation goes you should by now have read and understood at least these three references:
- http://www.novell.com/documentation/...reference.html
- http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/grub.html
- http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/grub-2.html

To assess boot loader problems we only need technical information and nothing else:
- output of 'fdisk -l' as root,
- which partitions are mounted where ('cat /etc/fstab') in each OS,
- for each OS the boot loader name and version,
- which boot loader is installed in the MBR.


* I was in the process of writing a reply when I noticed your most recent reply.
It seems you are utterly lost in introducing all kinds of hedges and unrelated issues.
You may think this serves your case but all it does is distract from and cloud the core issue.
So please stop that and for the duration of this thread focus on the one issue at hand.
 
Old 01-12-2012, 02:48 AM   #17
rainbowsally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unSpawn View Post
Do understand that source packages contain code with which to build binaries to run.



Then file a bug report against drkonqi before filing a bug report against kdesu.



Simple: make a backup.



Like I said before openSuSE 11.3 came with GRUB. In 11.4 GRUB2 is optional. Even openSUSE 12.1 boots grub-0.97-177.1 by default. From the openSUSE 12.1 Product highlights you can read: "We also again provide grub2 as an optional bootloader. While we are still not satisfied with GRUB2 as a replacement for the current GRUB, we encourage users to try it out, and want to make sure it is available for developers." Ergo it should be the users informed decision to take the necessary precautions (read the necessary documentation, assess the risk, make backups and ensure they can be restored) and proceed at their own risk.

As far as documentation goes you should by now have read and understood at least these three references:
- http://www.novell.com/documentation/...reference.html
- http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/grub.html
- http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/grub-2.html

To assess boot loader problems we only need technical information and nothing else:
- output of 'fdisk -l' as root,
- which partitions are mounted where ('cat /etc/fstab') in each OS,
- for each OS the boot loader name and version,
- which boot loader is installed in the MBR.


* I was in the process of writing a reply when I noticed your most recent reply.
It seems you are utterly lost in introducing all kinds of hedges and unrelated issues.
You may think this serves your case but all it does is distract from and cloud the core issue.
So please stop that and for the duration of this thread focus on the one issue at hand.

The issue at hand is the "friendliness" of modern linuxes.

Thanks for the info, by the way.

I guess grub 1 can demolish older grubs too. In /var/log/Yast2/y2bootloader log (that should be close to the right file name) we see that it writes 17 sectors.

Maybe that's why it makes my older linux unbootable too.

In either case it does NOT coexist with older linuxes, and if all this research is necessary, how "friendly" is that? Do you have to read half an encyclopedia to get Windows to boot?

And that, my friend, is the point, is it not?

Last edited by rainbowsally; 01-12-2012 at 03:01 AM. Reason: added a line about grub1 also messing up chainloader.
 
Old 01-12-2012, 02:56 AM   #18
rainbowsally
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[Get to the bottom before you decide this is "unrelated" unSpawn.]

This is kinda funny and maybe we need a break from all this seriousness.

On my system, amarok can't find the audiocd or can't mount it or something and the Device Notifier settings don't do a darned thing. Even if I set device notifier to to run kscd instead of amarok, amarok still tries to run and still can't find the audiocd.

Same thing happens on both Kubuntu and openSUSE.

So in openSUSE I downloaded the amarok src rpm.

One of the patches adds a file that doesn't exist. The patches don't work anyway (they have to be patched by hand, some of the source/dest listings appear to be reversed as well.) so I
tried compiling without the patches, just to get to the point where I could start figuring out what they were trying to do.

I'll tell you right now, I never did figure that out. :-)

I noticed these missing dependencies for the amarok build.
Code:
  add BuildDepends: 
    cmake ***
    libkde4-devel-4.6.0-6.11.1
    loudmouth-devel-1.4.3-9.1
    gettext-tools-0.18.1.1-4.1 # this one adds an obscure file you wouldn't expect here but the whole build depends on it.
    tcpd-7.6-866.1
    tcpd-devel-7.6-866.1
The asterisked one should cause those who understand this stuff to crack a smile.

Those in turn automatically add about 120 other files. This is not troubling, believe it or not, because it's quite hard to strip your system down to bare bones every time you compile just in order to get an accurate list of dependencies and once you identify the missing files (and there usually aren't many) things tend to go pretty smoothly.

[Well... depending on what sources you are compiling.]

So let's give a guy a break. Anyone can screw up or take a shortcut and as long as it is compilable and results in the correct build, it's functionally "open source" and we
have no real gripe.

What is troubling is that after compilation and manual installation amarok won't run.

But when uninstalled it runs again.

[Did I forget to uninstall the older version? Yup. Uninstalled and retested...]

Amarok still won't work.

One could say that I didn't install the amarok src rpm the way I was supposed to, and I could not argue with that other than to say, how else would I have seen the bad patches and missing files (such as ksuseinstall.h which is added by a patch and breaks the compilation at 46% of the way through)?

I can see what was supposed to happen during the installation in the spec file. Pre/post, all of it. No config files get updated or created.

[And YOU can too! Take a look at the short script for extracting rpms above.]

Solution: download the "opaque source" binary package.

And I might do that just to look at the install scripts in the opaque package that DOES install.

But I would think that anyone saying openSUSE rpms are "reliable" so "trust me" is either a fool or something substantially worse.

Kubuntu has some problems too but there is not this consistent pattern of broken source package that looks almost deliberate.

Now you might say, "What does this have to do with modern linuxes being windows-friendly and linux-unfriendly" and my answer in the context of this note would be another question:

How deep is Novell's involvement with Microsoft (the creators of the "nsa_key" backdoors)?

Thanks.

PS. And this wraps it up for me if you're happy to let it end here, unSpawn.
 
Old 01-12-2012, 03:17 AM   #19
rainbowsally
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Wait... a couple notes on your points, if you're willing to diverge from the topic of this thread for just a few moments longer.

1. I AM using 11.4.

You say:
While we are still not satisfied with GRUB2 as a replacement for the current GRUB, we encourage users to try it out, and want to make sure it is available for developers." Ergo it should be the users informed decision to take the necessary precautions (read the necessary documentation, assess the risk, make backups and ensure they can be restored) and proceed at their own risk.

I say:
What difference does it make. The old grub cuts my old linux out of the chainloader already.

2. re the docs.

My disk utilities CD has super grub2 and it CAN find my old suse even when it's demolished by the bootloader. grub2 can also boot isos it finds in any partition under /boot or /boot-isos.

That is what we need info about.

That is what we need to keep newer linuxes from destroying older ones.

That is NOT in the docs for grub2 at your links nor anywhere else that I've looked.

3. specifically about the chainloader. This is indicative of the pro-windows bias too.

From the article:
----------
It's possible the Linux installer will get the chainloader code wrong when it writes the menu for Windows in Grub
----------

More often it gets the chainloader code wrong for Linux. Duh.

In fact, I guess that it invariably gets the chainloader code wrong for older linuxes.

Let's chop it off here, unSpawn. I don't think we're communicating.
 
Old 01-12-2012, 10:01 AM   #20
unSpawn
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Clearly you remain unwilling to take my cue and make any effort.
As such there's nothing to add except good luck.
Sincerely. Because you'll need it.

Last edited by unSpawn; 01-12-2012 at 10:09 AM.
 
Old 01-13-2012, 03:15 AM   #21
rainbowsally
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Thanks for the conversation, unSpawn. And I understand the effort you have put into digging up the docs on this and I hope someone finds it useful, but in truth, only ONE extra hurdle for linux users would have made the point of this thread.

Furthermore, I have used (and still have) these systems I write about myself. I have gotten the up to the point where I was compiling my own C/C++ code (not to mention attempting to compile all of qt4), and creating my own packages (deb in kubuntu and rpm in opensuse).

Thus I have more than a casual one-time experience with both grub 1 and grub 2 (including a version that does find my old linux which neither of those distros incorporate or even document).

If it's in their specification that it won't work with older grubs, then it's not technically a bug. But if they got their heads on right everyone could enjoy the benefits of their new linux, their old linux, as well as windows.

And not lose perhaps their most important partition. The one that has always worked right and that does all the fixing up needed by the other two without having the manually mount other partitions and risk getting something wrong -- which becomes statistically more likely the more times you have to do it.

Thanks again.
 
  


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