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Old 12-14-2002, 05:43 PM   #1
Nu-Bee
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Why I think so many people give up....


From personal experience. I don't mind playing with things to tweak them. I don't mind tearing things apart to see how they work. I even like this...

But what I don't like is taking something that I don't know the first thing about, and is broken (I.E. not working.), and taking shots in the dark in the hope of trying to get it to work.

Constantly being frustrated because they get error messages and a black screen....

That is the problem many people have.

It's not the config files & all the rest...it's getting it to INSTALL without having to stand on your head & juggle the world.

When someone figures out an install that can take the most screwed up set of circumstances & make the system boot into a GUI the first time....they'll win the distro war.

We don't mind reading, but there's just too much contradictory stuff out there. It's one way if you are using Red Hat, another if you are using Slackware, and two more for Debian & SuSe....

Even my favorite (right now), Mandrake 9.0 is frustrating to try to get things to work.

I find it hard to believe that XAWTV & MOTV comes from the Mandrake people...yet SCANTV which I believe is part of it...refuses to scan my Mandrake 9.0 system & find the channels for my TV.

That is just plain stupid.
 
Old 12-14-2002, 05:47 PM   #2
MasterC
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I agree. I'd leave it at that, but have something to add (of course )

There are distro's working on such a setup. Debian's apt-get is supposed to REALLY get the ball rolling on this, along with Gentoo's (not sure what they call it) thing. Distro's creators realize this is a barrier for newb's and are definitely working on it.

Cool
 
Old 12-14-2002, 06:18 PM   #3
cipher
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you could try red hat 8.0
a friend of mine´s installed it on his computer and he could start from the begginning with an x installation... the installation would just recognize his video sound and ethernet adapters...
 
Old 12-14-2002, 06:22 PM   #4
J_Szucs
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I think curiosity drives people to Linux.
A few who like challange will stay.
Others who do not like challenge but like games go back to Windows, regardless of how easy and smooth is the installation.
Masses would fight like leons for Linux if they knew there are plenty of games waiting for them to play. But this is not the case.
 
Old 12-14-2002, 06:29 PM   #5
jenna_h
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I don't know if you know this already, but if you order a complete set of Mandrake 9.0, or look in the "contribs" section of the archive, they have included a version of apt that works with RPMs (and possibly with DEBs too, I haven't checked). This is worth installing just for the fact that it takes care of dependencies for you.
 
Old 12-14-2002, 07:02 PM   #6
Ciccio
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I think that you are talking about the need of standards. I totaly agree. There are standards, the problem is that no every distro (specially Mandrake and RedHat) like them, and they do things the way they like.

for example, I use only RedHat and Mandrkae, because those are the ones I know. A friend installed Suse 7 on his machine, and When I tried to use it I couldn't do a singe modification to it's configuration (I had root access).

And the problems with the FHS (File system Hierarchy Standard) is that not everyone applyies it correctly.
for example, mandrake 9.0 do not have the /usr/shared/bin a folder I remember a few binaries are stored in. I mean, eah kernel compile is different, and it is OK. If you want thing a certain way you can always recompile yours, it's no tthat difficult.

To answer the BIG question, Why does people feel atracted by linux? There is a mith, at least where I come from, that Linux is 100% stable and that it's 100% secure. Well, it is not true, but is close, closer than windows anyway. The truth is that there is no such thing as a perfect OS and perhaps there will never be.

but think of this for a minute. Each distro is developed by a different enterprise or group, and there are a few differences between them, specially on the windows manager.
BUT, windows is developed by a single Corporation, and the differences between the 'distros' or versions are huge, It is true that they don't use the same kernel, but they certainly use the same theory.

The comercial distros such as Mandrake are supposed to fit the user's day-to-day needs, and to ease the Sys Admin's work. But they aren't suposed to fulfill all the standards.

Compatibility problems Are common, that's what source is for. (by source I mean the source instalation). If you are using a common distro such as debian or redhat you can use the deb or rpm, but if you don't you can always get the source and compile it.

I'm new to linux, i wouldn't say a total newbie but there are many things I don't knw, I've only worked with the newest kernels (i.e. 2.4.19-16mdk) But I cna say it works way better than windows. And I've been using widnows sice windows 3.11

I think that newbies can use linux perfetly to do newbies things, such as surfing the net, playing quake. listening to music, And it is simple, just install kde when installing linux and done!. And if they really like it they can learn linux and become a home admin (you know, those who learn on a need-to-do basis... like all of us...)
 
Old 12-15-2002, 11:31 AM   #7
Nu-Bee
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Quote:
Originally posted by cipher
you could try red hat 8.0
a friend of mine´s installed it on his computer and he could start from the begginning with an x installation... the installation would just recognize his video sound and ethernet adapters...
The main reason I use Mandrake is because RH has failed me so, so many times.

I tried to install 8.0 recently and it wouldn't. It failed to find my video...I couldn't start X.

Oh!...it listed the card during the install, but it just wouldn't work.

I tried several installs with the same result.

Mandrake has worked for me every time....first time.

Last edited by Nu-Bee; 12-27-2002 at 05:18 PM.
 
Old 12-15-2002, 11:32 AM   #8
Nu-Bee
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Quote:
Originally posted by jenna_h
I don't know if you know this already, but if you order a complete set of Mandrake 9.0, or look in the "contribs" section of the archive, they have included a version of apt that works with RPMs (and possibly with DEBs too, I haven't checked). This is worth installing just for the fact that it takes care of dependencies for you.
I have installed it but am trying to get it to look anywhere besides the "cooker" area. I still haven't figured out the switches & configs.
 
Old 12-15-2002, 11:44 AM   #9
Nu-Bee
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Quote:
I've only worked with the newest kernels (i.e. 2.4.19-16mdk) But I cna say it works way better than windows. And I've been using widnows sice windows 3.11
Yes, I've been using M$ since DOS 3.2 all the way through WinXP. The only ones I haven't tried is WinNT 4.0 and WinCE.

The original Mandrake 9.0 worked OK, but I am beginning to notice some problems since I did my upgrade through the upgrade option.

I think it's KDE because the kernel seems to be the same...but now my screensaver won't work.

I booted up "old-linux" via the LILO menu and it works fine.

Anyway...yes, I don't understand why it's so hard for distros to use the FHS.

Stubborness I suppose....
 
Old 12-15-2002, 01:01 PM   #10
Nu-Bee
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Quote:
To answer the BIG question, Why does people feel atracted by linux? There is a mith, at least where I come from, that Linux is 100% stable and that it's 100% secure. Well, it is not true, but is close, closer than windows anyway. The truth is that there is no such thing as a perfect OS and perhaps there will never be.
Absolutely correct.

I can't speak for anyone else but my own reason for learning/using linux is this:

I have always hated the idea of being "used" or "manipulated". I will do whatever is necessary to always have an option. This is why I quit smoking in 1975, and why I threw away my dependence on alcohol in 1985. My hate for being manipulated overcame my cravings.

In this case it is not being tied to M$....I don't like the idea of an OS that spies on you.

Bill Gates may be the anti-Christ for all I know...or working for him. (joking)

Being tied to ONLY a single option is never a good thing.
 
Old 12-15-2002, 03:07 PM   #11
Edward78
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Ya a few thing need to get easier

1. .rpm files are good. but the dependicey issue does suck, a windows like install shield for linux would be good one click, click your way through setup, and if you want it put a shortcut on the desktop.

2. more packages need to be ofered in .rpm form it is so disapointing to have to compile a program cause it doesn't come in .rpm form with a compiled binary.

3. more software, games for one thing.

4. easier setup, more like windows.

5. better documentation, with the distro.

This has nothing to do with 1-5

6. more help on forums, without people acting all uptight like look it up yourself or acting like they are stupid. I for 1 use linux cause windows crashes to much, not because I want to learn another language (just a figure of speach, I know I can't learn another language just by using linux) . Just like I use a microwave, but I don't care how it works.
 
Old 12-15-2002, 03:09 PM   #12
Ciccio
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I can tell you something. Besides all the jokes I always make about distroying Microsoft, I've learned that it is necesary in the world. I have Linux AND Microsoft on each computer. I also hate being manipulated and dominated by a single enterprise, though I think Windows 2000 (AND ONLY 2000) could be a good OS, not as good as Linux, but good enough. I think that is is designed for people who are not intrested on learning and knowig deeply the OS and Just want to browse a web site on read mail.

My mother, for example, uses the computer Just for writing (like the old typewriters), and she still uses Office 97 (and that is because her 6.0 disk was broken). I mean, it is better for her to use windows with a good version of office than to use Linux with a good version of openoffice.org or koffice (because if Microsoft knows how to do something, It is Office.) I mean, there is no other suit like Microsoft Office or Microsoft Visual Studio (though, with the use of MSDN they have killed ot's charm).

But for people who knows and can know an OS and wants to be able to configure virtally everything I think Unix is a better choice.

Personally I prefer Linux with a good and well supported desktop environment like kde. I have redhat 7.3 (on a server, that can't detect my vid card) and Mandrake 9.0 in the other two boxes, both with kde3.0 and a lot of things installed... (I have over 160 GB of shared space).

Those who give up, they do it because they cant learn by themselves. THERE ISN'T ANY GOOD E-BOOK THAT TEACHES THE BASICS OF SYSTEM ADMINISTRATION. is there?

I think that M$'s evil empire is falling down (like all empires eventually do) And the penguin will rise.

for world's domination (This is the kind of jokes I meant)
 
Old 12-15-2002, 03:36 PM   #13
Ciccio
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I will answer this point by point.

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward78
Ya a few thing need to get easier

1. .rpm files are good. but the dependicey issue does suck, a windows like install shield for linux would be good one click, click your way through setup, and if you want it put a shortcut on the desktop.

2. more packages need to be ofered in .rpm form it is so disapointing to have to compile a program cause it doesn't come in .rpm form with a compiled binary.


there are plenty of rpm packages, you just have to know how to find them. Besides, rpm aren't supported by all distros, I think that compilling is way easyer, YES, there should be a GUI for this, I agree. Dependecies are necesary to make the packages small. Anyway, all the packages needed are avaiable in the distros CD (mos of the times), and if it is no, then what you need it avaible in it's homepage (gnu.org for example, all librabies)

Quote:
3. more software, games for one thing.
If you know where too look for there are many games, and the mos important games are supported (those are quake3, UT, HL)
If you want MORE games just install wine (look at the Code weavers home page )
Quote:
4. easier setup, more like windows.
If you wnat easyer setup use Mandrake, it is pretty damn easy, yet complete. Linux Isn't windows, stop compearinng the installation process. if you wnat to compare something, the compare the WM with Windows, not Linux with Windows...
Quote:
5. better documentation, with the distro.
I think that the documentation is good enough and if it isn't then use the internet (www.google.com , you know that one, dont' you?)
Quote:
This has nothing to do with 1-5

6. more help on forums, without people acting all uptight like look it up yourself or acting like they are stupid. I for 1 use linux cause windows crashes to much, not because I want to learn another language (just a figure of speach, I know I can't learn another language just by using linux) . Just like I use a microwave, but I don't care how it works.
Forums... the problem with forums is that the ones who help (or know enough for helping) aren't obligted to do so. read the link in my signature. I think that forums are a place where you post questions and other users, someones more experienced, someones less, try to do their best to help YOU solving YOUR problem, DO NOT EXPECT ANYONE TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM FOR YOU, seriously, read this link: How to ask smart questions

I hope I helped you.

<> RuLeZ
 
Old 12-15-2002, 03:38 PM   #14
shelby
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I think there are a few things that make people give up:

1. They do not fit into the Linux culture. The Linux crowd for the most part feels that they are better than than the other (mainly Microsoft crowds). Linux is more of a lifestyle.

2. This forum and others jump on newbies for posting something that has already been asked. New Linux folks need a certian amount of hand holding to get started. If you treat them like a lower life form for making a simple mistake then they will give up. If the person has less than 5 post, give them some slack.

3. Athough the X environments are getting better, they are still confusing. The menus need to be trimmed down. Also, progams need to have better names something that is easier to remember.

4. Answers in the forums are not detailed enough (I am guilty of this). We need to be more detailed in our answers and explain why this happened.

Of course these are my opinions.

Last edited by shelby; 12-15-2002 at 03:46 PM.
 
Old 12-15-2002, 03:49 PM   #15
Ciccio
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About the first 3 points: I agree, but the fourth... At least I try to adjust to the forum, for example if I am in the networking and I have to tell someone to restart the network service I wont type the commnad, If I am in the newbie forum I would. I think that whenever we answer we assume the otherone knows the man pages, and knows how to use them, I agree, it is not always so and we should be more detailed, at least in the newbies forums.

Anywya, I was a newbie not long ago, and I feel that in this forum they've treated me respectfully and kindly. Even thoug sometimes I am a little bit of a lost cause in what comes to linux.

I think we must try harder, but newbies should do so as well. and mos important read the how to ask smart questions

Last edited by Ciccio; 12-15-2002 at 03:55 PM.
 
  


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