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Old 09-11-2003, 03:40 AM   #16
Baran
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Did you try pressing
ALT+F2
to call an application, there type

mozilla

if you installed Mozilla correctly it should work.

If it doesn't I would suggest you to do this: (if you have installed that from RPMs)

rpm -qa|less (as root)

to see which pakages installed on your system. Find there the package related with Mozilla, the old one and also the new one,

uninstall each of them by

rpm -e <package name>

then intall your new mozilla package by

rpm -ivh <package name>

there you go !

try ALT+F2 to call mozilla... it should work.
Well it worked on my system at least

Good luck
 
Old 09-11-2003, 07:07 AM   #17
codec
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if you use RH9, then Mozilla 1.2.1 is in /usr/bin/mozilla and new mozilla 1.4 is likely to be installed in /usr/local/mozilla

Just make a shortcut in menu or launch bar and it would be ok
 
Old 09-11-2003, 10:08 AM   #18
harrygraham
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Quote:
Originally posted by cordedpoodle
[
I can also tell you from personal experience. I worked for a company that had a dynamite idea, presold, with the best coders and technology and gobs of start up money. Everyone had the latest equipment, 21" monitors and Herman Miller chairs. Despite my warnings they neglected to do a one day usabilty test. lthe CEO and CTO told me they'd fix the interface if they had to after they got feedback from the presold customers. They spent three years developing the product. They released V.1 and none of the clients could use it. The mistake in the interface wasn't that big but their competition had a better interface although a vastly inferior product. Within a month after they released the product they were toast. All their clients and investors bailed. We are talking about millions or even hundreds of millions lost because they didn't user test their interface. It would have taken them one day with paper drawings.

Tripping over dollars to pick up nickles.

It is my sincere hope that the open source community gets it together. I would love to help. The only thing that's holding it back is usability. [/B]
That's so sad, but typical of the way things are done these days. I believe your experience with this high-tech company is universally applicable. It's called the KISS principle. (Keep it Simple, Stupid) and it works in marketing like nothing else. So many good products die for want of better ergonomics and marketability. That's where Microsoft puts all its emphasis. But I don't think Linux is affected by this.

The GUI's are very important for the technically inept like myself. But Linux development is so rapid that if everything had to be perfectly gooified before being considered useable, development would be ham stringed. Most of the people who use Linux are techies so are quite comfortable with the command line. But I do agree that if Linux ever goes to the masses this weakness will have to be addressed.

Right now Linux doesn't have to worry about the bottom line. It therefore doesn't need to conform to sound business principles either - only good coding. That's what makes it a very revolutionary OS.

Last edited by harrygraham; 09-11-2003 at 03:15 PM.
 
Old 09-11-2003, 12:09 PM   #19
synaptical
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Quote:
Originally posted by cordedpoodle
It is my sincere hope that the open source community gets it together. I would love to help. The only thing that's holding it back is usabilty.
speaking of just the GUI, it seems to me that KDE and GNOME are just as usable -- if not more usable -- than any version of windows ever was.

when we start speaking of the OS "underneath" the GUI, it seems to me as even a novice user that linux is infinitely more usable than windows.

can you recompile your kernel in windows? no, you can't. so that's not a very usable kernel, is it? can you open new user sessions simultaneously in windows like you can in linux with Alt+Fx? no. so that's not nearly as usable, is it? can you read Mac OS, BSD, Unix, and almost any other type of partition with windows? no. so that's not very usable, is it? can you install multiple programs, patches, and other changes without rebooting in windows? no, usually you have to reboot. so that's not very usable, is it? can you get windows for free (legally?) no, you can't get it for free. so that's not very usable, is it?

the list could go on and on, but what really needs to be revised are current ideas of usability (many funded by microsoft donations to individuals and universities that do usability "research") that say, "the OS should do everything for the user transparently, without the user ever learning anything about the OS." that's about as unrealistic as expecting people to be able to fly planes without any training, by just getting in the cockpit and going. the day we see that is the day we see a lot of crashed airplanes (edit: oops, ref. to 9-11 tragedy unintentional ).

Last edited by synaptical; 09-11-2003 at 12:11 PM.
 
Old 09-11-2003, 01:29 PM   #20
Genesee
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with flexibility and power comes complexity and a greater need for knowledge. there's no getting around that.

however, people also confuse "foreign" with "complex" -- it is no more complex to type a command at a prompt than it is to place a cursor over a bitmap and click twice, nor to store files in directories by category instead of in a single registry file. I would argue it is less complex, actually.

but I agree that user interaction is crucial, and there has been a lot of activity in that area. and one of the greatest features of open source is that the source to everything is free and available - gnome, kde, etc. were all created by people that recognized the things you mentioned, and you are able to do the same thing.


Last edited by Genesee; 09-11-2003 at 01:30 PM.
 
Old 09-11-2003, 04:53 PM   #21
harrygraham
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Red face reality check

Microsoft for all its weaknesses, does make software with more gradual learning curves. Their programs are a marvel in user-friendliness. It's too bad that the heart of the OS is so flabby.

The problem is that once you get used to Linux, you forget the pain and difficulties you went through to learn it. You forget the long nights racking your brain to figure something out. Some people don't like putting themselves through all that just to have a superior OS. I don't blame them.

I set up a computer for an older gentleman last week with Windows 98. If I had set it up with the most user friendly Linux OS - Mandrake, he would have been on the phone to me every hour to explain this or that. I'd be giving him lessons for six months before he'd catch on. With Windows he can function independently with almost no help. Of course this is entirely different from the question of quality. Linux is better quality in many ways. But I think Microsoft deserves some kudos for making a very accessible product.
 
Old 09-11-2003, 06:24 PM   #22
cordedpoodle
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Genesee,

I think you are forgettin "intuitive". Apples OS has been the most intuitive. It has nothing to do with foreign or complex. Command lines are hardly intuitive. You must memorize commands. Once you learn how to use a dialog box you will probably know how to use it the next time.

As I've suggested if Linux coders spent a week or two out of their lives reading about usability you'd understand. For instance knowing how to use a grid makes all the difference in a dialog box. It's really astounding how much easier a well gridded dialog box makes even against a poorly designed dialog box with the same widgets.

Or can anyone here tell me the various advantages of shape vs. color in icons? I mean scientifically? I doubt it. But there are scientific studies made that prove color is best for some widgets whereas shape is better for others.

And it's not the apps. One would expect new apps to have lesser quality GUI or no GUI at all. It's the System, specifically the file system or the representation of the file system That really sucks and should have been fixed long ago. I mean the File Finder app is just about useless to me.

Rant, Rave... don't get me going...

Anyway I'm in it now so...
 
Old 09-11-2003, 06:33 PM   #23
synaptical
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Quote:
Originally posted by cordedpoodle
I think you are forgettin "intuitive". Apples OS has been the most intuitive.
dragging a floppy icon to the trash to eject it is intuitive? sounds more like what you learned and are used to to me.
 
Old 09-12-2003, 08:29 AM   #24
harrygraham
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Quote:
Originally posted by cordedpoodle


And it's not the apps. One would expect new apps to have lesser quality GUI or no GUI at all. It's the System, specifically the file system or the representation of the file system That really sucks and should have been fixed long ago. I mean the File Finder app is just about useless to me.

Rant, Rave... don't get me going...

Anyway I'm in it now so...
If the file system is really the problem, then why haven't they fixed it in Unix? After all, Linux is really a poor man's Unix. The file systems are almost identical.

Your idea of replacing the file system as being something akin to a "fix" has floored me. You obviously do not comprehend what you ask.. At least I can imagine how much work is involved. It would probably require tossing Linux - including the 4000 Unix-like programs that go with it - and starting over from scratch. All this so you won't have to learn a slightly antiquated file system? Methinks you ask too much.

Of course, eventually this might be the direction GNU will go. Unix was first made when ... in the 1960's? It may already be in the works, who knows?

Last edited by harrygraham; 09-12-2003 at 08:40 AM.
 
Old 09-12-2003, 11:38 AM   #25
cordedpoodle
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I rant about the Mac OS too. Don't like the trash, in the dock. Don't like the Dock.

But the file system in Mac OS9 is the easiest, OSX (unix as you know) is the next easiest, Windows next, followed by Linux.

Maybe we are talking apple and oranges here. Most here use Linux for servers I'm guessing I'm talking about using it as a desktop OS.

Hey it is what it is. I think we all here want Linux to succeed on the desktop. The biggest impediment to that now IMHO is the filing system.

On the plus side the installation was relatively easy. I was pleasantly surprised. The main problem I had was putting the installer files onto CDs. RedHat neglected to state Step One. Every thing else was pretty easy. What they don't tell you is that the files are virtual disks. I burned my first cd with the virtual disk inside another virtual disk. Simple fix, all they need is to tell the user that the file is a mountable virtual disk. At least from my view as primarily a Mac OS user.

The free apps are great. Open Office is great. Gimp is pretty good. Evolution Email looks fine.
 
Old 09-12-2003, 11:54 AM   #26
bigredmed
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As a rank newbie, I would have to agree.

The Open Source community could also help itself by getting people who tend to be early adopters to read the instructions and try to use the product, then help to clarify the instruction set so that future users with less enthusiasm will be willing to use it.

I can get the GUI to work in SuSe 8.2, but can't get basic questions answered because SuSe won't support you and this board is too over run with other requests for help to get to all of them.

Again, I would be happy to participate in a Newbie "gamma test" of any OS software. I would bet that there are a lot of people out there who would be willing to put our skills and interest to work to support this movement in this manner.
 
Old 09-12-2003, 12:08 PM   #27
MrMoke
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Cool

I agree that installing rpm packages can be frustrating

Open a Terminal window as root

keyin:#man rpm
This gives you the basics of the command, :q will exit

if the package is not yet installed:

keyin:# rpm -q -p --dump your-package-name.rpm
where your-package-name is replaced with the appropriate name, the -p option tells rpm that the package is currently uninstalled

You should see a list of where everything will be placed
 
Old 09-12-2003, 12:50 PM   #28
synaptical
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Quote:
Originally posted by cordedpoodle
Hey it is what it is. I think we all here want Linux to succeed on the desktop. The biggest impediment to that now IMHO is the filing system.
first you say the "biggest impediment" is the GUI interface, now you say it's the file system. i'm sorry, but i'm having trouble taking your rant seriously. it seems like you just want to complain.

of course another beauty of free/open software is that if a person doesn't like something, they are also 100% free to change it. if they don't know how to program and don't want to learn how, then they're stuck with what is available, right? either way, ranting about it on the LQ board doesn't seem very productive.

 
Old 09-12-2003, 02:32 PM   #29
ferretmanus
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also as a newbee ive felt like that a whole bunch. i am also an uber newbee. but i am trying something else where i really dont need the interface, creating a linux webserver and proxy server for my house, which is running windows. windows is great for gaming and chat ect, and also for the fact i have lan partys with people who dont really know what the hell is going on with linux. this is very confusing to me, especially getting to know it all. i rant and rave and go crazy and if it wasnt for this board and my gf i would be insane. but i do feel that there needs to be better explanation, ex: the kiss method of teaching, for us newbees. i dont mind learning all the linux tags, because ive had to learn french and html 4.0, javascript, ect... so its getting easier to get it all. i found out that the linux filesystem is very similar to a webpage filesystem. i also agree to what has been posted about windows, they are great with the kiss interface. i have set up my family and grandparents with a computer, and they are still having bits of trouble. but if i got into the whole linux thing on their laptop, omg it would so be trouble. but when i hear our ranting and raving friend who is making this whole post string sound like a bad sitcom, i just have to say go and j/o or something, releive the stress, look up a newbee guide, i found one but ill get back to you on the adress, and do it right. there are thousands of people to help and all you need is patience. its taken me over a year to get good at html and over 2 to get good at french. its all just a language you need to learn the structure of! so, a tout a lhuere!
 
Old 09-12-2003, 05:12 PM   #30
jhansman
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Quote:
It is my sincere hope that the open source community gets it together. I would love to help. The only thing that's holding it back is usabilty.
As a user of Linux for a whole month now, I understand the above sentiment. It is my sense that many Linux users like the fact that it is harder to use than Windows or the Mac, and this is precisely why they chose it as their OS. I come from a time when DOS 3.3 was the dominant OS and as Windows 2.0 was making a dent, hardcore DOS users detested its usability, which, admittedly was poor at the time. I like Linux not because I hate Microsoft or Windows, but simply because I'm bored now and Linux provides me with an new learning computer challenge, something I haven't had for a long time.

The irony here is if RH or any of the other distros become so easy to use that they also become indistinguishable from Windows or Macintosh, the very thing that sets it apart will be lost. I fully agree that for the novice, Linux has far too many obscure and arcane aspects. Still, that has to be part of its appeal.
 
  


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