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Old 01-02-2006, 03:49 AM   #31
muha
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Registered: Nov 2005
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as for tutorials and such:
there is a section called 'linux bookmarks' where you can search for 'suse' which gives you the following:
http://bookmarks.linuxquestions.org/linux?like=suse

that gives you some helpful links such as:
http://www.susewiki.org
tutorials, faqs (frequently asked questions) for suse

and http://www.suseforums.net which is another good forum for suse-starters
 
Old 01-02-2006, 10:19 AM   #32
megalomando
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Muha,

Thank you for the links I have much to learn.

I'm finding it interesting that something so well designed as an operating system like Linux is without a built in gui to handle the mundane initial requirements of a newcomer.

From what I read before deciding to explore Linux, Suse is supposed to be one of the most turn-key distros. It did identify and install most everything I needed to get onto the internet but then it was unhelpful with no tutorial to explain how to install a program, or where to put those files or.... well pretty much left me clueless.

So many engineers appreciate Linux so there must be a logical attraction to this variety of OS but many of us newcomers are not engineers. My livelihood is in health care and for my experience, computers run the software and my involvement has been getting familiar with the software. Installing the software is rarely a problem. In Linux, apparently it's hands on with pretty much everything. If that is the case then some kind of genuine help should accompany a distro at least in the form of a starter manual. It would sure cut down on the repetition of the questions asked in all the forums...

The more people that are turned off by lack of support or don't know about forums to get help in, the less people will stick with much less use Linux and that means less demand for drivers and interest from software & hardware providers. The supply & demand connection surely is obvious advantage to all Linux users.

I'm surprised that this hasn't been recognized and addressed by those that produce the distros. Perhaps Ubuntu offers this? I've only installed Suse but it's reputation was that of a good starter distro.

The kinds of clear explanations that Stress Junkie has offered is exactly what should accompany a distro.

Such an explanation should be available as an on-line tutorial in Linuxquestions.org.

But I digress, Thank you for the links!
 
Old 01-02-2006, 06:40 PM   #33
stress_junkie
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megalomando,
Once again I did you a disservice. This time is was because I expected the new Firefox to install exactly like the old version. When I read your description of what happened to you I realized that, as you probably suspected, this version of Firefox does not have an installer. Instead, the tar file has all of the file where they should be relative to each other. The only thing that you have to do is position yourself in the correct location and untar the file. I just did this in the command line. I will just cut and paste my commands from that terminal window here. Let me know if you have any questions. When the terminal window lines start with a dollar sign I am using a normal user account. When the terminal window lines start with a # then I am logged on as root. I have already downloaded the file into a directory /home/download/firefox before these commands were issued.

$ cd /home/download/firefox
$ ls
firefox-1.5.tar.gz
$ gunzip firefox-1.5.tar.gz
$ sux -
Password:
# cd /opt
# ls
. MainActor_V5 gnome kde3 novell snavigator
.. firefox insight mozilla openoffice.org2.0
# mv firefox firefox.1.0.6
# ls
. MainActor_V5 gnome kde3 mozilla openoffice.org2.0
.. firefox.1.0.6 insight novell snavigator
# tar -xvf /home/download/firefox/firefox-1.5.tar
<files are listed as they are installed>
# ls
. firefox insight mozilla snavigator
.. firefox.1.0.6 kde3 novell
MainActor_V5 gnome openoffice.org2.0
# chown root:users firefox
# chmod 750 firefox
# find firefox -exec chown root:users {} \;
# find firefox -type d -exec chmod 750 {} \;
# find firefox -type f -perm +100 -exec chmod 750 {} \;
# find firefox -type f ! -perm +100 -exec chmod 640 {} \;
# ls -l firefox
total 12707
<files in firefox directory are listed>
# ls firefox/plugins
. .. libnullplugin.so
ls firefox.1.0.6/plugins
. .. flashplayer.xpt libflashplayer.so libnullplugin.so
#
# cp firefox.1.0.6/plugins/*flash* firefox/plugins
# chown root:users firefox/plugins/*
# chmod 750 firefox/plugins/*
# ls -l firefox/plugins
total 2080
drwxr-x--- 2 root users 1024 Jan 2 18:12 .
drwxr-x--- 11 root users 1024 Nov 11 20:00 ..
-rwxr-x--- 1 root users 856 Jan 2 18:12 flashplayer.xpt
-rwxr-x--- 1 root users 2096844 Jan 2 18:12 libflashplayer.so
-rwxr-x--- 1 root users 19224 Nov 11 20:00 libnullplugin.so
#
=========

That part about copying files (cp) from the old firefox.1.0.6/plugins directory to the new firefox/plugins directory is all that I had to do to install Flash Player in the new version of Firefox.

Last edited by stress_junkie; 01-02-2006 at 07:08 PM.
 
Old 01-02-2006, 07:55 PM   #34
megalomando
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Stress Junkie,

A disservice? Oh no, you've done more to help me than anyone else has and what you've shown me has led me to understandings I didn't have a few days ago. Heh, I'm surely not an Einstein but I'm not the slowest car on the road either and you've given me some things to try and they have in turn let me explore with a greater understanding.

To the contrary, I'm very happy for all of your assistance. What's the absolute worst that could happen if I make any mistake? I suspect I'd have to reformat & reload. That... is not a big deal.

I'll have more questions for you when I get done with your latest suggestion. I'll be back for more

Thanks!
 
Old 01-02-2006, 09:11 PM   #35
Trio3b
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help

To megalomando,

You were perfectly right to use the BIOS to switch OS if that is what made YOU comfortable and if that was your level of proficiency at the time. As you progress, you will see that there is a way to have a linux boot loader give you the option to boot either OS and you may prefer that.

Please do not be discouraged by the sarcasm and lack of diplomacy by one or two people. Sounds like stress_junkie is enjoying helping you. Disregard the one or two others who have become instantly bored. They have forgotten that this is a H-E-L-P forum and it is full of good information.

In order to keep your frustration level to a minimum, ask yourself a couple of questions and this will help you formulate a game plan and schedule for learning GNU/linux.

Why are you moving away from Windows?
Do you need Windows for business for the time being?
Should you dualboot as you are doing or can you take the plunge into linux?
What do you expect from using GNU/linux?

There is sometimes a steep learning curve. Using OpenOffice may be easy because it is similar to MS Office. Setting up a home network with SSH may be harder and take a week or two.

Regarding the command line. As you know by now, most distributions now come with a GUI interface and you may choose to install them or not. Some people are comfortable with text interface and some people are comfortable with visual/auditory/tactile interface (GUI).

Because linux is based on UNIX, it was originally designed by and for people who ate, slept, and drank computers and the manual pages and many linux documents are feature-centric and are really reference manuals for people who already know how to do things. This is very hard for the new user, so don't feel bad about it.

good luck

Last edited by Trio3b; 01-02-2006 at 09:26 PM.
 
Old 01-02-2006, 09:18 PM   #36
KimVette
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Location: Lee, NH
Distribution: OpenSUSE, CentOS, RHEL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saikee
I can only help people who are prepared to help themselves.
Agreed. THere is so much info on here answering "how do I get a command line" or "how do I run fdisk" or "how do I edit a file" that I don't bother answering them. If a person is too lazy to use the search feature to find out the basics, they should consider not using computers at all. Call it elitist, but really - I have a big problem with rehashing oft-asked questions for lazy people when the basic part of the question is a mere search away.

(don't know where search is? Check out the blue-grey line at the top of the page - you'll see Home, Forums, HCL, Reviews, Tutorials, followed by *gasp* Search)
 
Old 01-03-2006, 07:01 AM   #37
MasterC
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Let's try to keep on topic here. Constructive posts are always welcome

If you can't find something constructive to say, feel free to move along and find a post that you can (or will) help in.

Thanks!

Cool
 
Old 01-03-2006, 01:28 PM   #38
megalomando
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Trio3b

Thanks for the comments.

Discouraged? No.

Amused at "know it alls" posting smarmy and fatuous comments that do nothing constructive? Yes.

We all like to feel important and that's their way of assuaging their own egos and expressing perceived control. Some call it trolling, I consider it childish.

Your suggestion of reflection to help focus my quest to GNU/Linux is a good one:

"Why are you moving away from Windows?"

I do not like the future of windows under Microsoft's direction. I fear what may be the end result to the consumer as regards "Trusted Computing". As I've always thought too many "rules/laws" become stifling, Linux's reputation is that of "for the people, of the people". I like that.

In addition, I find the software I install manage to have many services/programs running when I do not wish them to be there. Windows does not give me say in that. I am with the understanding that Linux allows me to have more say in what does what & when. I like that too.

I have experienced enough BSOD with Windows when I am doing nothing unusual with the computer that I have become tired of internal conflicts with software or OS which make windows unreliable. To wit: I installed XP on a new hard 250G SATA drive on Christmas day. After installing fresh, all my programs and drivers it was the next day that I received a BSOD saying windows was shutting down to protect my computer. I'm not running any unusual programs but there's a conflict somewhere and I'm tired of unreliability. I understand Linux is a stable OS when configured well.

"Do you need Windows for business for the time being?"

Yes. I have to see if Wine will allow me to use the existing software under Linux. If the answer is yes, then I can happily leave Windows forever.

"Should you dualboot as you are doing or can you take the plunge into linux?"

Dual Boot because of the above.

"What do you expect from using GNU/linux?"

As above. With the addition that I enjoy repairing electronics. Being an extra class ham radio operator for 26 years, I've built and repaired many transmitters & Receivers as a hobby. I wouldn't mind learning how to do the same with an OS & I believe Linux is the most readily available one to do that with. There is much to learn & do so it might well become a hobby I will enjoy spending tinkering time with.

"There is sometimes a steep learning curve. Using OpenOffice may be easy because it is similar to MS Office. Setting up a home network with SSH may be harder and take a week or two."

My only need for a connection with office is when someone sends me a Doc file or a file in access or rarely; excel. If I need to read or respond to those documents files in a way the sender can use the file when I send it back with my additions, I am sated. If not then I need to have the windows option for that which Linux won't handle at my skill level.

"Regarding the command line. As you know by now, most distributions now come with a GUI interface and you may choose to install them or not. Some people are comfortable with text interface and some people are comfortable with visual/auditory/tactile interface (GUI)."

Actually, I don't know that. That's something I have wondered about and not found much on yet. I'd like to be able to easily get my chosen programs to run in linux so I can use them while I learn the command line options, the "steep learning curve" part.

"Because linux is based on UNIX, it was originally designed by and for people who ate, slept, and drank computers and the manual pages and many linux documents are feature-centric and are really reference manuals for people who already know how to do things. This is very hard for the new user, so don't feel bad about it."

I figured that. When I attended Northeastern U. in Boston back in 72, I hung around the electronics lab even though I was then a Bio major. I remember those friends I knew back then poring over computer technology. It would take people like that to create something like an operating system.

I still feel a distro should have a readme or visual tour of Linux as regards a newcomer. With that, many of the questions would not need to be asked here. Doing a search helps but if you don't know what to look for it can lead you to many wrong paths. For an analogy; Xing or Sung means what? Xing is chinese for Star and Sung is Korean for star. If you don't know the language then how do you know what to say? If I don't know what to look up then how many dead ends of unfamiliar terminology do I wade through in a forum to find I am reading on something totally unrelated to my question?

Since Linux doesn't offer this kind of "welcome" program to the newcomer, then perhaps such a wiki could be made available & posted as such prominently as a sticky in the newbie forum. I bet it would be well read.

"good luck"

Heh, thanks but it's just going to take time & help, not luck.

Cheers!

Last edited by megalomando; 01-03-2006 at 01:30 PM.
 
Old 01-03-2006, 05:00 PM   #39
Trio3b
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linux help

Yes there is a Catch-22 for newbies. If you don't know what you need to do, how do you know what to ask?

The wikis that you refer to are out there, but there is no 'central location' for newbies. The Linux Documentation Project is a good place to start. Browsing the forums even without asking questions can be helpful and will lead you to a question and/or answer you had not thought of, but ties into what you're looking for.

Mandrake 10.0 and 10.2LE have been friendly GUI oriented but still retain the ability to learn command line. Software installation uses rpms (Redhat Package Manager) which is used by a number of distributions. Just as there are .dll (dynamic link libraries) for Windows, so are there "dependencies" (libraries) for linux applications. These must be taken into account if an application is going to load and perform properly. There are other package managers out there. Yast, apt-get, etc.,

Anyway most distros come with almost anything you ever need or want and if they don't, each distro has an online site or "repository" from where you can download additional software. That's what the package managers do.

As for running Windows apps on linux, I have very little experience with wine so can't help you there, but I have almost completely migrated my business to GNU/linux with the following:

MS Office -> OpenOffice , KOffice
MSWord -> OO writer or Kword or Abiword
MS Excel -> OOcalc or Kspread
Internet Explorer -> Mozilla-firefox (and others)
Outlook -> Korganizer, Evolution
Document scanning and graphics - Xsane, GIMP
CD burning -> K3B
CD ripping -> KAudiocreator
Media players -> Xine, Totem, Amarok, Kaffiene, KsCD, many others
Databases - kexi, MySQL
2D drawing ->OOdraw or Qcad

There are some Windows apps you may have to keep if they are ABSOLUTELY needed for business, such as Adobe Photoshop if you require exacting industry standards or Autocad if you are licensed architect or surveyor. For the rest of us, 99% of opensource software does 99% of what we need.

Command line is an acquired taste for GUI oriented people and sometimes absolutely necessary. The fact is that it is an arbitrary (to us mortals) language created by and for programmers. It really is a 'special' language and you will have to learn about a dozen or two commands to get most things done. (even though there are hundreds).

Pick one distro and give it about 6 months or so. Recommend you avoid shuffling distros around as this will only prolong the learning curve.

hope this helps
 
Old 01-03-2006, 07:31 PM   #40
J.W.
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Just FYI the Fultus E-library has the SuSE manuals online. They're very complete and informative
 
Old 01-03-2006, 08:46 PM   #41
megalomando
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.W.
Just FYI the Fultus E-library has the SuSE manuals online. They're very complete and informative

Hi there JW,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll check them out & thanks!

Like I'm sure everyone else here has been in their life, I've been a novice at many things. All of the difficult endeavours took a lot of time to become savant. What's the chances of the moderators of the various forums getting together & agree on some links that would really help the newcomer through the initial "getting familiar" stages. Trial by fire is not the best way to learn if making content and satisfied converts is the goal. A little trial by fire may be good but I suspect a trail-finder guide around the blaze is probably better.

There's the distro forum and if there's distro specific links that the newbie would learn the common & needed basics from for that distro, then a sticky with that info indicating the same would be a blessing. General Linux links could be here as a sticky or what the heck, a distro specific set of links in those forums and an all encompassing sticky here with all the links offered by distro...

If I knew the material I'd volunteer to do it myself but heh, I'm the one needing the answers at the moment.

Thank you for that link though, I just looked at it for a moment and it looks really interesting. I'll go there & see what I find.
 
Old 01-04-2006, 02:47 AM   #42
J.W.
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Good to hear - SuSE generally does a great job with their documentation, and I think you'll find the online manuals to be useful. As for a centralized "getting familiar" set of links, that's probably trickier than it might seem, simply because each newcomer to Linux (and LQ) will have a different skill set, and different experience levels, so I'd say that trying to come up with an all-purpose, one-size-fits-all set of "getting started" links isn't sure bet.

However, if you haven't already checked them out, you might want to spend some time looking into LQ's Linux Answers section, as well as LQ's Linux Wiki Both of those sections contain a wealth of guides, HOWTO's, and tutorials, along with the threads here in the forums. Overall, LQ strives to be as useful and helpful a resource as possible to Linux users of all levels, but hopefully most of the common introductory topics are covered fairly extensively. That being said though, if you have comments or suggestions on how to make LQ better or more useful, please submit your ideas in the Website Suggestions & Feedback forum. Thanks, and again please feel free to post about any questions you might have as you get up to speed with Linux. As you mentioned, everyone here at one time or another was a Linux Newbie, so we all know that it can take some time to get acclimated, particularly if you've had years of Windows-only experience
 
  


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