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irajjs 02-02-2010 02:17 PM

sugestion
 
Hi

I am a newbie,but i have noticed that,giving some wrong commands or clicking on an unexpected or wrong place (choice) sometimes acts as a bug and causes the whole desktop or just the window (application) to stop working normally (hangs),so if the whole OS hangs and even ctrl+alt+del or ctrl+c.... doesn,t work,then user has to reboot by using hardware or shut down ....which some times causes some disorders as its result.
My suggestion is to make and install a software to be able to recognize this wrong behavior and stop continuing the activity to prevent hanging,and then confirm about user choice and make warnings,and then if user insists ...it may go on !
Regards

BeaverusIV 02-02-2010 11:13 PM

I believe it is a bug (And yeah, I had this happen to me when I started). If you can replicate the behaviour then report it. Its quite hard to program for every eventuality and the more weirder ones are ones that only people who have no clue happen to come across.

irajjs 02-03-2010 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeaverusIV (Post 3850320)
I believe it is a bug (And yeah, I had this happen to me when I started). If you can replicate the behaviour then report it. Its quite hard to program for every eventuality and the more weirder ones are ones that only people who have no clue happen to come across.

Hi

I have experienced a lot of these cases mostly on working by fedora,ubuntu,redhat...(older versions),so it wouldn,t be possible to report each case,but as i said mostly when user does an unexpected action,for example if user wants to install an application or configure a device and in the middle of the way returns by pushing cancel. Also sometimes by clicking on a wrong choice which reasonably can cause a conflict,but user does this unwanted or carelessly so although this is a bug but on normal acting by users who are more capable and are sure about what they are doing this(usually) would not happen,also the system configures itself with the user in the long run and,the reverse,other wise the user has to change the OS.

i92guboj 02-03-2010 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irajjs (Post 3850854)
Hi

I have experienced a lot of these cases mostly on working by fedora,ubuntu,redhat...(older versions),so it wouldn,t be possible to report each case

Well, I am sorry to hear that. Because that's exactly how it works: you report a bug and help to solve it. Not necessarily with your coding skills, there are many other ways to contribute. Just reporting a bug is helpful. No one can fix a bug if s/he doesn't know that the bug exists. Logic.

There's no magic wand around that will magically catch all the bugs that appear and work around them without the user noticing it. If that was possible, believe me, in around 19 years of linux it would have already been done. Problems need to be addressed one at a time.

Some bugs are specific to a given application (i.e. firefox, audacity, whatever else). Some bugs are given by a conjunction of factors (ABI breakages, lib collisions, etc.), some other might be a problem in a given driver or a core piece of the system, and some others are the result of bad packaging practices (and hence, they are specific to a given distribution or a family of distributions).

Quote:

,but as i said mostly when user does an unexpected action,for example if user wants to install an application or configure a device and in the middle of the way returns by pushing cancel. Also sometimes by clicking on a wrong choice which reasonably can cause a conflict,but user does this unwanted or carelessly so although this is a bug but on normal acting by users who are more capable and are sure about what they are doing this(usually) would not happen,also the system configures itself with the user in the long run and,the reverse,other wise the user has to change the OS.
Those that you describe look more like usability issues than real problems. Some programmers are not the best when it comes to user interface designs, they program tools that work and they expect the user to have an elementary degree of understanding on how these tools work. In any case, as said above, the problems need to be addressed one at a time, and no one can address a problem that hasn't been noticed by anyone in the programming team unless an external factor (you) reports it.

ps. Please, try to use more descriptive titles in the future.

TB0ne 02-03-2010 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irajjs (Post 3849914)
Hi

I am a newbie,but i have noticed that,giving some wrong commands or clicking on an unexpected or wrong place (choice) sometimes acts as a bug and causes the whole desktop or just the window (application) to stop working normally (hangs),so if the whole OS hangs and even ctrl+alt+del or ctrl+c.... doesn,t work,then user has to reboot by using hardware or shut down ....which some times causes some disorders as its result.
My suggestion is to make and install a software to be able to recognize this wrong behavior and stop continuing the activity to prevent hanging,and then confirm about user choice and make warnings,and then if user insists ...it may go on !
Regards

Bugs are one thing...but you're wanting someone to somehow write software that just 'knows' when the user doesn't mean what they're doing??? How, exactly, do you propose that?

The computer only does what YOU tell it. It has no way of knowing it's a stupid idea, the wrong place, etc. That's up to you.

As others have said, if you find a real bug, report it to the software authors, so they can fix it. Report DETAILS...version/distro of Linux, version of the software, and how to reproduce the bug. Be part of the solution.

irajjs 02-03-2010 05:41 PM

Reply and thanks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TB0ne (Post 3850985)
Bugs are one thing...but you're wanting someone to somehow write software that just 'knows' when the user doesn't mean what they're doing??? How, exactly, do you propose that?

The computer only does what YOU tell it. It has no way of knowing it's a stupid idea, the wrong place, etc. That's up to you.

As others have said, if you find a real bug, report it to the software authors, so they can fix it. Report DETAILS...version/distro of Linux, version of the software, and how to reproduce the bug. Be part of the solution.

Dear friend TB0ne:
-This is what i mentioned first:
sometimes acts as a bug ,then our friend BeaverusIV said: I believe it is a bug
Your next saying:
-you're wanting someone to somehow write software that just 'knows' when the user doesn't mean what they're doing??? How, exactly, do you propose that?
This is possible in many cases,for example my own case! If you read my all posts you will know that how i learn to work with all software,which is first based on my previous experiences (mostly related to windows software although i have learnt windows software and all program files related to windows in the same way and now i think i do not need much help regarding windows) and reading help pages,and documentation and frequently asked questions.Of course Yahoo site has been of great help in guiding me trough internet (I started learning computer itself and software usage by using internet ! and Yahoo ! and Yahoo help)
Another possibility could be your small brother or sister or any unqualified person who might access your computer,also if you yourself are sleepy or drunk,or sick...etc.
-your other saying:
The computer only does what YOU tell it. It has no way of knowing it's a stupid idea, the wrong place, etc.
Although This is true nearly in all cases,but it,s not the same in exactly all cases!
for example when i was trying to reconfigure my microphone my speech recognition software being concerned about loosing the correct tune prevented me to run the wizard and closed the wizard window several times after warnings about closing that window by myself and my paying no attention to that warning,because i thought it,s my computer and i can do anything to that even wrong! Of course i didn,t insist too much because computer was right,but there are cases that computer is not right but thinks that it is right!!
there are many warnings,and even helping messages that computer gives to user ,because the software is designed to care about user!!
And i have noticed that computer to some extent understands in such a way as humans (this is what some people say computer has a soul!!)
- you said:
If someone helps you out, please click the "Thanks" button!
Again please take a look at my earlier posts,i have thanked them and tagged their answers to my questions as friend and more... ,but i am not always connected to internet and sometimes i can not access internet for a long period of time! So, quick answering is not always possible.
Dear i92guboj you said:
Well, I am sorry to hear that. Because that's exactly how it works: you report a bug and help to solve it
This is not always the same,for example if you want to format a disk a message warns you about loosing all your software on that.Also on using terminal when i gave useless command The bash made fun of me telling that: usually no one prints his own log ,but i don,t care. So i new that this was a useless command for my goal in installing applications or making configurations.
Again i have to mention that i did not report a bug and did not ask for help,because as its' title shows that was a suggestion....and fortunately i experience much less (but a few)problems by installing and using mandriva recently.
-You also said:
no one can address a problem that hasn't been noticed by anyone in the programming team
OK! i am just trying to attract the attentions to a general problem which can have a common solution.

If i just should report specific bugs and disorders then:
1- i can tell you about amarok which hanged when i was adding some(1600) newly copied music files to its' collection,the only message that i could see was this: multiple applications are running at back ground,then gradually all desktop hanged such that i had to reboot using case button!as result of that sound got a problem and worked as null until the next reboot!

2-Also my second hard disk was not detected at first on installation,but then when using harddrake it was detected but when trying to configure that (as it was recommended) a message said that file system should be changed to ext2...etc, but,I think if i do that the windows software probably won,t be able to use that hard disk as before,so i couldn,t configure and use that on linux yet.
3-On installing orca a one time message! said to me to type something consisting of three letters but since i was busy i forgot that and now the orca does not start(doesn,t show on the screen)
4-I also can not connect to internet using my dial up modem which works well on windows
Now i need help in these 4 above cases,and i thank any one who spends to read my posts and many thanks to those who answer regardless of being helpful or not

evo2 02-03-2010 05:53 PM

1. Sounds like a real bug, and probably should have been reported.

2. I can't help with: I don't know what "harddrake" is and you haven't told us what you were installing.

3. I don't know what orca is.

4. This is probably a so called winmodem: not really a modem at all. This was the bane of many laptop owners in the 90's. I can only suggest you do what I did: get a really modem: perhaps a pcmcia card (assuming this is a laptop).

For anyone to really be able to help you with 2,3 or 4 you'll probably have to provide detailed information.

Evo2.

BeaverusIV 02-03-2010 06:01 PM

I'm guessing you aren't a native English speaker, I didn't understand some of what you were saying, but I can tell you that modems on Linux are not worth it unless you really need to have it. In all my years I've never gotten one to work... but then again maybe they've made improvements since I last tried. Good luck with it anyways.

I am guessing you were trying to suggest that there needs to be different system for error management so that certain things happening that shouldn't be fatal don't become fatal and programs work together instead of against each other (Or something like that). Afaik, this would require an entirely new framework for linux programs that everyone would have to work with to make sure everything 'plays by the rules'. It's just not gonna happen.

pixellany 02-03-2010 06:22 PM

Please, do NOT make software more idiot-proof than it already is. One tired truism is: "If you try to make it idiot-proof, I will find an idiot who can break it."

Whenever people set out to do things like this, there is a high probability that you wind up with multiple layers of band-aids. Taking the metaphor to the extreme, the skin underneath is deprived of oxygen, and the patient dies of gangrene.

Noble goals for SW:
intelligent UI design, follows written and unwritten standards.
good documentation
"appropriate" safeguards---eg an extreme action requires some overt effort, such as clicking "OK" or putting the "f" in "rm -rf"
simplicity (e.g. the opposite of MSOffice07)

BeaverusIV 02-03-2010 09:42 PM

I think it's more trying to raise awareness of the robustness of a program (Making sure it can handle all/most eventualities) rather than making it more 'user-friendly'. I am definitely with you in that I hate how everything seems to get dumbed down too much so that power users have to find/make another tool to keep up productivity.

TB0ne 02-03-2010 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeaverusIV (Post 3851705)
I think it's more trying to raise awareness of the robustness of a program (Making sure it can handle all/most eventualities) rather than making it more 'user-friendly'. I am definitely with you in that I hate how everything seems to get dumbed down too much so that power users have to find/make another tool to keep up productivity.

Yes, but I think the OP is missing the point totally, and wants FM (F___king Magic).

One program that somehow, monitors ALL the other software you might have, and SOMEHOW 'knows' that what you're doing is bad/wrong/whatever....BY ACCIDENT, and not that you're trying to do something you WANT. How, exactly, is the computer supposed to know if you're young/drunk/sick/whatever???

Not sure the OP has a good grasp on how software really works, and why..

BeaverusIV 02-03-2010 10:32 PM

I don't think they want it to differentiate between intentional and unintentional use, but to not crash when said use happens. I too had this when I started in linux where I was trying to figure out how to do stuff (mainly system configuration/customisation) and it would crash when I chose certain options (that didn't like to be set at the same time). I don't think we need the software to try and figure out what we want, merely to inform us we can't do something before it brings the system down (As OP was saying that they needed to do a hard reboot because of these crashes).

jschiwal 02-03-2010 11:04 PM

Often when a program seems to lock up it is do to some modal dialog that didn't pop to the front, but the system is waiting on.

There was a problem with the version of Amarok that comes with SuSE 11.2. In the podcast tree list, sometimes you can no longer expand a node or select an item. Waiting doesn't help. I did discover that by starting to drag a node or item, this causes the lockup to go away. this was probably a bug rather than a resource deprivation issue. It think the program thought it was in a mode it wasn't in.

Some programs do not handle error conditions properly. Making a mistake, such as entering the wrong directory should not cause the program to segfault. Imagine that this code is a program segment running as a subprocess.

These aren't Linux problems. You will face this type of thing whether running a program like Amarak in Linux, and encoder in Windows, or FinalCut pro on a Mac.

The latest and greatest will have the most bugs. Whether you are using an unstable branch of a Linux distro or a fancy Windows program that was released on a tight schedule. IMHO, the worst offenders are device manufactures who release products before they are debugged. They may meet a pared down version of the protocols, with some bugs in parts that they did release. The device programmers program to the standard specs. A lot of code is workarounds for devices that don't work as advertised. Sometimes you will see some salty language in the kernel source. "A workaround for ... which doesn't work to spec ..." is very common. These problems can't be anticipated.

At least in open source software, someone usually gets around to fix the problem. In propriety software, there often isn't an incentive to fix post release bugs. The end user is just expected to purchase an upgrade of the next release.

brianL 02-04-2010 04:55 AM

What we really need is human beings who never make mistakes, but that is impossible.

irajjs 02-04-2010 03:38 PM

Rely to all
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brianL (Post 3852085)
What we really need is human beings who never make mistakes, but that is impossible.

Hello everybody.

Dear evo2
-hard drake is an application used to detect hardware,i have said that my last installed Linux is mandriva which is fine.
-orca is a screen reader and magnifier.
-My modem is a Gigabyte 56k modem,in my view modem itself is fair enough,but i think there is a lack of configuration and dialing tools...etc
Unfortunately hardware manufacturers usually do not set a Linux drivers on the software CD in the hardware package but mostly just windows drivers!?

Dear BeaverusIV

-Yes i am not a native English speaker,neither i have been or travelled to English speaking countries.Access to English speaking Radio or TV channels is also not availabe (recently)
- No,i am suggesting to create something like a task manager in windows which is a powerful tool in the hands of user(specially in windows7),also,to create more,configuration,harmonizing,provisioning tools to prevent crushes,at least to prevent a system hang out.Provisioning software capable of giving warning messages to users about conflicts and eventual crashes.
I am not a software creator,i just made a suggestion to point to a problem to be solved.

Dear pixellany

-I wish to make software crash-proof that already it is not.
-If software can not swallow and digest what they eat,it causes death too.

Dear TBone

Yes! Of course,i am not a Linux specialist,but i have to repeat that in some cases there are such provisioning,configuring,harmonizing,watching programs
A general task manager which interacts enough with user,could be of great help.

Thank you all who participate in this discussion,but i expect others to be constructive,rather than destructive


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