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Old 11-14-2007, 06:45 PM   #46
ColonelPanic
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I see this thread is still sort of half alive. I was very busy the last few weeks so I couldn't follow up on this. I just wanted to get a couple of things straight but no offence taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge View Post
Please don't go round assuming simplicity in a solution unless you are prepared to come up with code yourself. (Even half-baked would be a start.)
I was never assuming simplicity at all. In fact, the opposite is true. It definitely was a question first of all and perhaps rather wishful thinking from a Mac user who is used to fix certain erratic hardware behaviour simply by exchanging or hacking kext files. First of all I'm trying to help out my wife who is the 'real' Ubuntu user in the house.

I don't see why I should be coming up with code being a noob in a noob forum. This is a very precise (and very old) problem which has been repeatedly reported and never ultimately fixed. As a matter of fact it can't be faulty hardware in our case (and apparently most other users) since, as mentioned, shutdown does work with other distros and it even works in Ubuntu using the little trick I described above. I could give all the hardware specs in all the details I am able to provide (which excludes any code written into the firmware or whichever is relevant to trigger a proper shutdown - once again I'm not a developer). The point is though that it is not even necessary as many other people with the same mobo/CPU who have the same problem have already submitted bug reports.

Just for testing purposes I took the issue to a totally different level and installed OSX86 (better known as 'hackintosh') on this machine and guess what... everything works without a glitch. As absurd as it seems, this computer has never seen this level of stability and flawless operation before. Something I was hoping to achieve the 'proper' way with Ubuntu as we're all seriously tired of Microsoft products in this house. The other 'easy' distros do a proper shutdown but are somehow lacking compared to Ubuntu. Shame really.

Thanks much for the replies fellas.
 
Old 11-14-2007, 08:09 PM   #47
zamot
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Hi, my silence was due to some experiences I was doing. The shutdown problem is solved in my case. First I did go back to windows (my work can't wait), then I started to download several distro's (home and in the internet café) and bought also a magazine with mandriva and fedora included.
I put aside several distros, because of problems they had while working with them. Debian even couldn't be installed after 4 attempts I made. The majority of distros seems to be made at the image of their developpers.
From those I tried only two really worth a while to experience: PCLinuxOS and Suse (I didn't try Mint neither those distros less userfriendly, already too much MB downloaded).
With both distros everything went well, every element of my system was well recognized. I first used PCLinuxOS for a while and after changed to suse. The first is amazing, extremely configurable, great performance, MAC style desktop, but it has 3 negative points for me: doesn't seem to have an integrated software update (like Ubuntu or Suse), didn't see any applet for the network manager in the notification area - and this is crutial for me since my wireless network goes down frequently - and finally it is a too small community, even if it has a great success. I will be back to PCLinuxOS as soon as I will manage better linux. For now it's not yet the best option for me. Suse is fantastic, luminous, great colours, updated software and it is incredibly userfriendly. I made my own system configuration easily. The only thing in which Ubuntu beats Suse is in the software update manager (graphically more intuitive and better performance). Suse has also a great web site from where we can install directly all software we need through a research. So, after 2 weeks I am quiet satisfied. With Ubuntu I had frequently a freezed system, impossible to make shutdown, some graphic card problem and could not write on my NTFS external disk without being ROOT (this is extremely annoying, since we can not even log in as ROOT – i discovered tough that if I write nautilus in a shell I can manage files like root). With Suse everything is smooth till now. I just regret my dear dictionaries I had with windows and that they also patronize on us like Ubuntu not alowing the root log in.
Do you know that ASUS made also an OS based on linux that can be handled even by kids? They will sell a priceless (less than 300 bucks) very light laptop with this OS integrated (with windows it will be much more expensive). This is a great new, since hardware that comes from fabric with linux avoid us this kind of problem. Only like that the big brands will stop imposing difficulties (I didn't tried yet my webcam under suse, but didn't work before). LG didn't even answer my questions about the ACPI problem with Ubuntu.

The conclusions: the shutdown problem doesn't seem to be connected with the linux kernel. The same in different distro gave different results. So we must try different distros till we find the adequate for our system. I prefered PCLinuxOS, but the best for me is Suse. It is also strange that I can handle my NTFS usb HD with Suse and PCLinux and not with Ubuntu (with this distro it's not just that I can't write on it, but also it was not hot swap, if I took it out, the next time didn't mount without force it under a command or use it before in windows).
 
Old 11-15-2007, 04:49 AM   #48
ColonelPanic
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Hi zamot,
good to see you've found the right thing for you.

As you've mentioned, it's becoming more and more obvious to me (you can say I'm a bit late ) that you should look for the distro that works best with your hardware. That is, in a more or less trial-and-error way. This is an approach not everybody has time for (and the energy after a stressful working day). Plus, not everybody has a 'developer's brain' and actually the vast majority of people are not comfortable with programming code and arcane commands which are reminiscent of IT systems from the seventies.

Although I believe that the trial-and-error approach really defeats the purpose of an OS (actually a loose group of OSes) that seems to want to detach itself from the 'handcuff and strangle' methods of the mainstream industry, reality will always kick in at some point. The (in)famous quote 'It just works' seems to be only applicable if the range of supported hardware is narrowed down to a manageable size which is small enough that the OS distributor can virtually guarantee compatibility and flawless operation (--> see Apple or Sun for example).

I suppose it can be assumed common knowledge that the breadth of Linux support for hardware is increasing by the minute but I tend to think now that its depth is not always following up at the same pace. I'm aware that the hardware market is busier than a bee hive but I don't think it's good for the image of an OS to 'sit out' the bugs until the hardware is so obsolete nobody talks about it anymore.
 
Old 11-15-2007, 05:33 AM   #49
Simon Bridge
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Quote:
I suppose it can be assumed common knowledge that the breadth of Linux support for hardware is increasing by the minute but I tend to think now that its depth is not always following up at the same pace.
This is a good point - it is very common for a project, particularily a driver, to get orphaned when it only just goes.

I present as an example, the genesys scanner backend - no longer maintained, but anyone who wants to can improve it. It will get the scanner to work in greyscale. In color, it will scan once then jam. To unjam, you pull the power chord.

Thing is, the scanners that need it are quite old now and were always cheap. The original maintainer no longer has any. I was having a go, but I ended up with a new scanner before I could come to grips with it. I discovered that nobody else seemed to have one and I couldn't give mine away (apparently it wasn't so hot in windows either). So I gave up.

Of course, if someone paid me I'd look into it - but I have other fish to fry.

The same effect occurs all over.

If the newbies with the problem don't tackle it, who will? It's not normally as hard as it looks, though the acpi standards are pretty cryptic... it may not be that.

I have been noticing that newer hardware is increasingly open-source friendly. eg. I can flash my bios without needing windows now. My mobo vendor supplied linux notes.

Generally, quality HW works better than the cheap stuff... partly because the hackers like to use the quality stuff and partly because it's, well, quality. That leaves the rest of us with cheap machines floundering with almost-working HW and technical workarounds. Even if good HW is accessible, that doesn't help if the stuff you've got is being difficult.

Your starting point is to install the latest kernel - preferably from CVS.
With that hang on shutdown, you have to read around the problem until your eye's bleed.
Access and read your logs - so far, nobody has shown me log reports.
Learn about the debugging tools, this can show you if a process is looping instead of being killed properly. And so on.

This is not all at the HWs door - the kernel project notoriously gives low priority to "home" users with low-end hardware. The people to got interested are the distro maintainers who target your demographic. Hunt through their bug reports, and write your own. Supply lots of information.

If this is ubuntu, then shutdown issues are upstart issues, report suspected bugs to:
https://launchpad.net/products/upstart/+bugs
... this is an active project, so you should get attention.
 
Old 05-26-2008, 08:04 PM   #50
nooby
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Quote:
29-10-07, 22:28 post #31
ColonelPanic writes

After testing a bit I came across some weird behaviour. Without having changed anything in my 7.10 install I did a suspend from the regular Gnome shutdown menu. It worked properly. It would turn everything off and when I hit the power button the machine would pick up where it left. Then I did a shutdown and the machine powered off properly.

I rebooted and tried to shut down but that would make the machine freeze again.

Then I tried the same procedure as described above and it worked.

So after suspending and waking up the machine it powers off properly.
Weird...
I will test this tips maybe on my machine one more time. Using the latest 8.04 distro with wubi before I give up on it.

If that doesn't work then I will use the Ulteo linux instead on it.

That one has no shut down problem on my machine. if others want to test it it can be found here www.ulteo.com

Last edited by nooby; 05-26-2008 at 08:05 PM.
 
Old 05-27-2008, 04:54 PM   #51
nooby
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I've tested it several times now and it seems to work. To only make restart fails.
it can work one or two times but the third it gives error and the software asks for the
repair and recovery CD from Windows.

but if I do suspend first and then boot up again and then do restart then I am able
to boot into windows and to use that to make a clean shut down and then it never complains.

All works.

But wow what a cumbersome thing to do.

Is there no easier way? If this thing works don't you who make the programming get
what is going on? Could you not suggest how to do that less time consuming?
 
Old 05-28-2008, 11:12 AM   #52
nooby
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Could I find out what goes wrong if I do things like
lspci

00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 82915G/P/GV/GL/PL/910GL Memory
Controller Hub (rev 0e)
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82915G/GV/910GL
Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 0e)
00:02.1 Display controller: Intel Corporation 82915G Integrated Graphics
Controller (rev 0e)
00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family)
High Definition Audio Controller (rev 04)
00:1c.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family)
PCI Express Port 1 (rev 04)
00:1c.3 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family)
PCI Express Port 4 (rev 04)
Family) USB2 EHCI Controller (rev 04)

00:1f.2 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FW (ICH6/ICH6W) SATA
Controller (rev 04)
00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) SMBus
Controller (rev 04)
02:00.0 Ethernet controller: Marvell Technology Group Ltd. 88E8053 PCI-E
Gigabit Ethernet Controller (rev 19)


I mean what should I write so it logs what happens when I do a
cli or terminal Suspend and then a "resume" and then a Restart
So I can look at it after everything works and see what process
fails to be shut down.

Please help!
 
Old 06-23-2008, 02:28 PM   #53
nooby
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My compromise is to use ubuntu 8.04 and to not shut it down ever.

I first do a suspend from Ubuntu and wake it up and then
I do a restart and dual boot into windows and shut it down
from within windows xp.


Then if I do it that way now problem with the files getting corrupted anymore.

Take longer times but I have things to do in windows anyway.
Windows Live Mail client is the mail client I use so good to
check before I shut down if an important mail have arrived.

And this is June 2004 and if I just wait maybe two month then
all ASUS motherboards will have their Linux Express Gate on
them in Bios and they start in five seconds so that is handy.

No need to have trouble with non-compatible hardware anymore.

asus p5e deluxe and p5q deluxe have this Express Gate Linux too
if you want to build your own machine

Last edited by nooby; 06-23-2008 at 02:30 PM.
 
Old 07-01-2008, 09:05 PM   #54
Simon Bridge
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There is word that the 8.10 release is setting sights on mobile computing - the intrepid kernel already has marked improvements for acpi stuff. May end up a matter of waiting.
 
Old 11-14-2008, 12:50 PM   #55
zamot
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NO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge View Post
There is word that the 8.10 release is setting sights on mobile computing - the intrepid kernel already has marked improvements for acpi stuff. May end up a matter of waiting.
Unfortunately, no. Still no shutdown neither sound. And what is worst for me now my external usb HDD become read only (even in windows) and there is no way to mount it or even force it to mount. I think I will end up to hate linux as much as I hate windows.
 
  


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