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Old 10-11-2007, 03:46 PM   #1
zamot
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Shutdown problem under Ubuntu


Hello,

it's my first post. So, sorry if I am not used with the context here. I am a newbie.
I changed to Linut two weeks ago. Everything went well. I had a lot of problems (resolution, external drive mount, language that changes by itself, etc) but I learned by myself to solve all, except one. My laptop doesn't shutdown properly (command line -h now neither). Problem continues after I upgraded to 7.10. I have to force the shutdown with the power buttom. If I don't take out the external drive before the shutdown process when I log on again it becames impossible to mount it without force it by command line.
I have both services activated: ACPI and APMD. They are both needed?
All the solution I saw in a google search didn't work.
It is a very annoying problem. Actually, I don't shutdown since long time ago, I hibernate till now.
Could another distro solve the problem? Perhaps Suse?
Besides that, I am quite happy with the substitution of windows and even if I don't have time to learn about Linux I progress nevertheless.
Only negative point: I lost my dictionaries under windows (and some other very nice applications) and they don't have a similar linux version.

Thanks very much
 
Old 10-11-2007, 06:14 PM   #2
Simon Bridge
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OK - you select "system > quit > shut-down" and what happens? It doesn't shut down, but what does it do?

What kind of laptop is this?

In BIOS, you only need the most basic ACPI enabled. Special "features" usually make a mess of things.

You do not need both apm and acpi - pick one (nudge: the latter).

These "dictionaries"? Linux users use the online resources for these things. If you can be specific, we can help.

Last edited by Simon Bridge; 10-11-2007 at 06:21 PM.
 
Old 10-11-2007, 08:09 PM   #3
AceofSpades19
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7.10 is unstable I wouldn't advise using it right now
 
Old 10-12-2007, 06:31 AM   #4
nooby
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Some say this problem is hardware related. The hardware makers don't make hardware that are compatible with how the Linux kernel is written and kernel is written as the standard is?

So the hardware makers send drivers for windows but not for linux and don't tell the linux programmers enough info on how to write workarounds.

Too few of us using linux for the hardware makers to care about?

So often linux users tell us after we bought the laptop or desktop that we should have bought a computer compatible with linux. Too late for us to know that now when we already have maybe three computers that are not compatible.

I am also curious on if there is a distro that have solved this.

The linux installation program seems to be able to do restart several times but when one first use linux it seems to change something and then at least I lost the shutdown. I wish that someone who knows how that is that is done cause maybe there is a workaround there. If one could mimic that behavior. Some say it has to do with something named DSDT.

why was the installation program able to restart the computer but not the usual linux program able to? Are the installation program running an old MS DOS program or Assembler code maybe?

Could one borrow such subroutines to shut down the computer then? I mean if the installation program already knows how to shut down, why not run that command again? I don't know how to but shouldn't the kernel programmers know how to do it again? Are they too buisy programming more exiting things to even try? It is a mystery to me.
 
Old 10-12-2007, 04:23 PM   #5
zamot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Bridge View Post
OK - you select "system > quit > shut-down" and what happens? It doesn't shut down, but what does it do?

What kind of laptop is this?

In BIOS, you only need the most basic ACPI enabled. Special "features" usually make a mess of things.

You do not need both apm and acpi - pick one (nudge: the latter).

These "dictionaries"? Linux users use the online resources for these things. If you can be specific, we can help.

Thanks for such a quick answer!
First question: when I do select shutdown the process starts and I see the ubuntu logo for a couple of minutes with the orange bar moving from left to right and vice-versa. After the screens becomes black, like the computer made the shutdown, but there is still the AC power light on and the power button also. I have to force the shutdown with the power button.

Second: it is an LG LW20 Express

The BIOS has no options to change connected with ACPI. I did check that as soon as I noticed the problem.

About the dictionaries, for my work I need a good portuguese dictionary, also a good french one and english too. And bilingual dictionaries between these languages. The problem for me is that most of my time I am inside a library where I don't have an online connection, so the online resources are available only by night.

Thanks again
 
Old 10-12-2007, 04:30 PM   #6
zamot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AceofSpades19 View Post
7.10 is unstable I wouldn't advise using it right now
I was trying to see if the 7.10 could shutdown the laptop since the 7.04 couldn't. But no, it is the same like 7.o4.
Besides that it works well. The only bug I remark is that since I have to hibernate instead of shutdown, afterwords the below bar of the desktop disapears misteriously (it only comes back if I restart).
 
Old 10-12-2007, 04:31 PM   #7
larkl
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I've seen this inability to shutdown come and go as I've changed distros. Sorry that I don't have any recommendations, but I've seen it happen.
 
Old 10-12-2007, 04:36 PM   #8
zamot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nooby View Post
Some say this problem is hardware related. The hardware makers don't make hardware that are compatible with how the Linux kernel is written and kernel is written as the standard is?

So the hardware makers send drivers for windows but not for linux and don't tell the linux programmers enough info on how to write workarounds.

Too few of us using linux for the hardware makers to care about?

So often linux users tell us after we bought the laptop or desktop that we should have bought a computer compatible with linux. Too late for us to know that now when we already have maybe three computers that are not compatible.

I am also curious on if there is a distro that have solved this.

The linux installation program seems to be able to do restart several times but when one first use linux it seems to change something and then at least I lost the shutdown. I wish that someone who knows how that is that is done cause maybe there is a workaround there. If one could mimic that behavior. Some say it has to do with something named DSDT.

why was the installation program able to restart the computer but not the usual linux program able to? Are the installation program running an old MS DOS program or Assembler code maybe?

Could one borrow such subroutines to shut down the computer then? I mean if the installation program already knows how to shut down, why not run that command again? I don't know how to but shouldn't the kernel programmers know how to do it again? Are they too buisy programming more exiting things to even try? It is a mystery to me.

Hi Nooby,

actually I read so many solution's proposals by users and it seems some worked in some computers, but not in mine. You make good questions, but in reality my linux program CAN restart the system, it can also suspend it and hibernate. It just can't shutdown.
 
Old 10-12-2007, 06:22 PM   #9
Simon Bridge
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Shutdown:
This is usually an ACPI issue - sometimes a combination of boot options will help.
Laptops often require noapic nolapic to work. You could also try noacpi (not a long-term solution).

The DSDT mentioned is the tables used by BIOS to tell it how to handle ACPI events. You have to extract the tables and decompile.

These are often compiled to MS standards, which are different from the intel standard (which MS helped set, and then ignored). Sometimes recompiling to the intel standard is good enough to get ACPI working properly. If this is really the issue then you will likely find a DSDT already compiled for your laptop for download.

Also - often - there is a line in the DSDT which effectively says: if the OS is not Windows, stop working. (Some people will be having this problem with Vista too...)

Gentoo Wiki has a whole page devoted to this laptop:
http://gentoo-wiki.com/HARDWARE_LG_LW20
... cites ACPI issues but no problem on shutdown.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaptopTestingTeam/LgLW20-34DB
... confirms the shutdown issue in Kubuntu 6.06.1

And that seems to be it. It looks like you just have to live with it.

However... try shutdown(8) with the -P option, and/or halt -p ... this explicitly requests a poweroff and it is what the power button is supposed to do (and we know that works right?)

OT:

Dictionaries:
O peixe de Babel é a maneira usual traduzir indicações entre línguas. Mas eu posso sympathize.

Les bons dictionnaires existent, vérifier cependant la plupart du temps l'épellation. La traduction est un problème.

Have a look at: http://www.freedict.com/onldict/por.html

dictd is the freedict server (dict the client) for translation. I see them both and copious language packs in the debian and ubuntu repos, presumably other distros too. Does cross translation on individual words.
 
Old 10-13-2007, 05:17 AM   #10
nooby
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Thanks to all who answered me Nooby.

I hope the OP read it too. Seems to be good advices.

So one need to learn how to compile then. So if one know things on that level then it is possible to use any computer?

Not easy for us newbies to do but maybe compiled versions already exists if one look around persistently until one find them. Sad reality for us who bought a linux incompatible computer.
there are solutions but only if one know things on that more advanced level.

We have to Lobby to the Intel folks we want them to do this then. To make it easy for those who buy an intel machine to use linux on it.
 
Old 10-13-2007, 04:55 PM   #11
Simon Bridge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nooby
So one need to learn how to compile then. So if one know things on that level then it is possible to use any computer?
assuming you mean the DSDT stuff? Nope.

The issue is complex. The gentoo wiki has an excellent collection of entries. Like this one:
http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Fix_Common_ACPI_Problems

This is pretty complete overview except it seems to miss out the newer initramfs method of inserting a custom DSDT.

There are other tables that can contain important info too.

The issue is so profound that there in a project to replace the entire firmware with linux instead. At this level, you can run everything.
http://linuxbios.org/index.php/Main_Page

Quote:
Not easy for us newbies to do but maybe compiled versions already exists if one look around persistently until one find them. Sad reality for us who bought a linux incompatible computer.
there are solutions but only if one know things on that more advanced level.
Well, if you don't research your computer before you bought it... consider, a friend of mine buys a new sparc PPC and tries to install MS Vista that he also bought. This fails and he brings it to me. I tell him that the PPC won't support Vista, only MacOS (and linux). He then complains that it is useless me telling him that now!

Quote:
We have to Lobby to the Intel folks we want them to do this then. To make it easy for those who buy an intel machine to use linux on it.
It is the OEMs who install the BIOS and the DSDT. Usually, intel-chipset machines are pretty good.

The move to Vista is bringing these lessons home to Windows users too... their existing computer may not work well with Vista even if it does have a pretty sticker. This sort of thing will happen when the OS is not pre-installed.

These days there are companies that will sell you linux pre-installed. I think the fav right now is the IBM Raven X60 Tablet ... or something.
 
Old 10-14-2007, 02:51 PM   #12
nooby
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Much appreciated! Very interesting links. Scared as I already am I hesitate to think of burning a bios. such could fail. Have to learn how to do a back up then of the current bios.

I find it likely that some reader of this thread will be able to follow the advices at the link you provided so that is of much value.

Nooby
 
Old 10-15-2007, 05:04 PM   #13
zamot
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Hello,

Following the Simon's post (thank's, all the links are quite useful), I found this information about DSDT in these links. But they refuse the idea of a machine running windows propoerly and that would need firmwire to do the same properly with Linux. They say SUSE can handle with the problem, if I undestood well.

http://www.intel.com/technology/iapc...s_override.htm

http://acpi.sourceforge.net/index.html

http://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kern...es/README.ACPI

I quote them: "Supported systems should run ONLY the DSDT supplied by the platform vendor. Further, the maintainer and the development team generally consider it a Linux bug if Windows handles an un-modified DSDT and Linux does not."

To change the DSDT it seems also too risky for a newbie.

The shutdown with -p doesn't work neither in my computer, but i could see the process in text line and didn't see no fail indication, just ends again with the black screen and still power on.

Thanks for the dics. The french translation is good, the portuguese not really.
But I need some dic installed in my laptop. Perhaps I could install the one I had under windows emulating it in Linux? I read there is a program for linux who permits it.

I will write to LG also asking about this.

zamot
 
Old 10-18-2007, 06:00 PM   #14
nooby
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zamot, very interesting read and some of it support my very newbie take on it.

We should not need to go into doing bios to get a machine to work.

Did I get that right that SuSe works. I have hope then for my machine cause Ubuntu didn't shut it down. I should try SuSe then.
 
Old 10-18-2007, 07:57 PM   #15
Simon Bridge
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Quote:
We should not need to go into doing bios to get a machine to work.
This is a yes and a no... the firmware supplied by the vendor should be sufficient to run the computer. However, the various BIOS options exist simply because the vendor cannot be expected to anticipate every demand that will be made of the hardware. For custom uses - and this includes running an OS that is not supported by the vendor - you must expect to interact with the BIOS.

Ideally, the vendor will support linux, or, ot least, will stick to the appropriate international standards. Then BIOS need not be touched - or will have a "linux settings" option. We will see more of this in the future. Already I see many onboard BIOSs supporting linux - the manual for my ASUS P5PE-VM mobo even has a linux section.

Laptops will lag behind with this as they are expected to only run the OS pre-loaded in it's default configuration. Anything else is not supported.


Quote:
Further, the maintainer and the development team generally consider it a Linux bug if Windows handles an un-modified DSDT and Linux does not.
Which is a fine sentiment - however, sometimes needed information in an OEM system is not available via the nvram. Instead the vendor sticks it in a custom partition or some "special feature" software as a form of vendor lock-in. (Upgrade from anyone else and ACPI stops working.)

In other words, the vendor has deliberately broken the ACPI implementation.

This sort of thing cannot be considered a bug in linux. It is more an artifact of a market where the dominant player sets the rules then breaks them.

So: you will find full linux support, generally, from high-end laptops.

As with all things tech: buyer beware. At least with open source it is, in principle, possible to do something about it. If ACPI stops working in windows, you are bunta'd.

Aside: I should point out that it doesn't always go the MS way. There are laptops whose acpi is not reliable in windows but works in linux. Especially where the oem install had a service-pack added to it later (like when a vendor exploits a quirk of windows that gets fixed in the service pack.)
 
  


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