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Old 11-05-2013, 02:09 PM   #16
Shadow_7
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90% of the linux learning curve is knowing that something exists and it's name. It's no harder than windows in my opinion, just different. Instead of autoexec.bat, config.sys, cmd.exe, msdos.sys, regedit.exe and things you have /etc/ and /boot/ things.

If a printer works in linux, you don't have to run multiple versions of linux depending on the printer. Like one has needed to do in windows for some printers that only came with a win95 driver, or mE driver, or vista only driver. It either works or it doesn't. And working things in linux generally don't get deprecated, but sometimes that does happen. A lot of distros are pretty good at out of the box these days. And a lot of printer protocols like postscript or IPP are fairly OS agnostic. And some like hplip on lower end printers aren't all that bad in linux, out of the box in a lot of cases.
 
Old 11-05-2013, 02:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
HPs in OSx are connect them to the network and poof OSx sees the printer and it just works. In Linux its a single line command and poof you are printing.

MS world its download 150M+ driver, wait for it to unpack, install for 10-30min, reboot and PRAY the printer works.
Not only that, the MS driver (the old XP variant) invariably prints a test page or repeatedly puts up a warning about aligning your cartridges which, according to HP tech support, could only be stopped by reinstalling the printer driver (there goes another involuntary test page). What a waste of toner! Glad those days are behind me.

Yes and I agree, keep notes, preferably on paper, or a separate machine or in the cloud or on your phone...
 
Old 12-02-2013, 05:29 PM   #18
Mikech
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Smile HUH???? What Planet are you Guys From?

Some of you guys are out of touch with reality; living in some sort of la-la land of LINUX contentment. I do not mean that to be rude but simply as a statement of concern. I respect the hell out of all you experts and wish I were one. Its just not a priority.

Its obvious some of you who were the most hurt at the original e-mail's inferences are system administrators or at least very knowledgeable about LINUX. So OF COURSE installing a printer seems trivial to you!

But for the majority of us who use our computers as a tool for work (and have no interest in tinkering with them) its not easy doing anything in LINUX. Fortunately once we get things working, most of the time we don't have to. But if we change hardware or anything else we have a real chance of being screwed. Without the help of people like you guys (who can do in 10 minutes what the ordinary user cannot do at all or only after hours and hours of research) we would not be able to use LINUX at all!

For instance, I just installed a new version of Mint (16) and it did not recognize my HP 722c printer (which is on the LINUX approved list). I can't add it either using the GUI. That is a 20 year old printer that has been recognized by every other version of LINUX for the last 20 years (although in the old days I had to tinker to get it to work). If I were using Windows I could fix it and make it work because everything is available as a GUI. I don't need to know or remember a lot of the arcane gibberish that you guys are so fond of. I can always intuit from the available options. But in LINUX I haven't the faintest idea what to do so I asked for help on the Mint forum. And I will probably get it and will get the printer working after a few days and many hours. If I don't get help I will have to reinstall Windows.

BUT if I wanted to use Windows I wouldn't be on this forum. So like the original poster said, dealing with time-consuming installations (of any sort) is the PRICE I PAY for the privilege of using LINUX and not being a slave to a corporate entity. The orignal poster was dead on accurate in his assessment (for anyone who is not an expert).

Trying to convince a user like me or the original poster that we are stupid and defective for not being able to do things in ten minutes like you can, is an example of the continuing problem holding back wide acceptance of LINUX on the desktop. LINUX experts are out of touch with the LINUX experience for the ordinary user. They don't understand us, they resent us, and they can't understand why we stubbornly refuse to memorize or make thick books of notes about arcane gibberish. They are especially upset that we won't use LINUX they way they want us to, i.e., become experts on the command line. That is the single biggest reason why LINUX is STILL no threat to Windows on the desktop!

But I do like it when it works. I just can't fix it when it breaks (which isn't often). By the way I found this thread looking for a solution to my printer problem.
 
Old 12-02-2013, 06:54 PM   #19
m.a.l.'s pa
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Whew!

Well, I guess the OP is correct in that with Linux you do pay a price. But while they say that time is money, I'd much prefer to pay with my time than pay out of my pocket.

Buy Linux friendly hardware (keep the receipt so you can take it back if it doesn't work!) and keep good notes, as others have noted above.

And as always, use what works best for YOU. Most people I know are better off with Windows or a Mac, in my opinion, but Linux is best for me.
 
Old 12-02-2013, 08:40 PM   #20
Zyblin
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It is false to assume that there are never any hardware/driver problems with MS Windows. There are two ways to get MS Windows on a computer. For example HP will bundle MS Windows with their tools, drivers needed for the hardware for that specific computer and a lot of times you will see useless and/or trial software you have to pay for. Than you have to uninstall it or leave it and let it clutter your PC. You also have to make your own backup discs as soon as you get the computer since they no longer ship the reinstall discs. The other way is something like IBUYPOWER. They will have everything installed and also send you a straight MS Windows disc, a disc with drivers for the motherboard and an additional disc(s) for any added hardware such as a PCIE x16 Video card. But without the additional discs or the extras that are bundled together with it MS Windows is very likely not going to be able to pick up the hardware by default, this is very true for newer hardware and older MS Windows releases such as Windows Vista and even Windows 7. So the "price" has to do with the hardware manufacturers and how they force people to use MS Windows because of their lack of driver support for other operating systems.

On the other hand. Linux distro's, by default, come with many more drivers for various hardware right from the start. If hardware manufacturers would start making drivers as well for their hardware, which some do, than that would put Linux well above MS Windows. However they can't just do that because of the hold MS Windows has on them. This also includes that laziness of some software makers as well.

The best thing to do is to research and make sure the hardware does work, without problems, with the specific OS being used and what needs to be done or what drivers are needed. This applies to both Gnu/Linux and MS Windows. The research does not take long and their are plenty of places online, for example, to find out what hardware works with Linux and if there are any problems/issues people have had. It is very easy however if someone can't Google, can't type a question and can't read. Than they may not want to be on the computer at all let alone trying to connect a new piece of hardware to it.

Edit: I meant to say there are three ways. Of course you can just buy the MS Windows OS and that will probably not have a lot of support needed for various hardware/drivers.

Last edited by Zyblin; 12-03-2013 at 01:31 AM.
 
Old 12-02-2013, 10:22 PM   #21
tommcd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikech View Post
I respect the hell out of all you experts and wish I were one. Its just not a priority.
I wish I was an expert as well. I am just an end user. I have learned a lot about Linux over the 7-8 years that I have been using it. However, I will never be a Linux expert. I use Linux because it is faster, better, and easier to use than Windows. Also, you have no worries about malware on Linux.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikech View Post
But for the majority of us who use our computers as a tool for work (and have no interest in tinkering with them) its not easy doing anything in LINUX.
If you have a mission critical system that is used for your livelihood, then just use what works best for you. My home computers use Linux, but my work computer uses Windows. The work computer is not mine, so I can not install another OS anyway. However, I can sympathize with the fact that you need a work pc that just works without fussing around with it.

I would suggest using Linux on home or hobby systems that are not mission critical so you can have fun and learn in your spare time. The first time I installed Linux (Ubuntu 4.10)
I installed it on an old pc I was not even using anymore just to see how well I could use it. I then put it on my main home computer and have been using various Linux distros ever since.

Last edited by tommcd; 12-02-2013 at 10:26 PM.
 
Old 12-03-2013, 01:13 AM   #22
mdlinuxwolf
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The hardware compatibility list is your friend. For what it's worth, vista can't use my hybrid drive or work with my ancient hp t65 printer. Mint and fedora do so without a problem.

Sometimes, it's just easier to use bacula and then switch distros.
 
Old 12-03-2013, 02:06 AM   #23
Randicus Draco Albus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikech View Post
Its obvious some of you who were the most hurt at the original e-mail's inferences are system administrators or at least very knowledgeable about LINUX. So OF COURSE installing a printer seems trivial to you!
If someone believes people who know how to install an OS and volunteer their time on a board are professional administrators, that person is the one out of touch with reality.

Quote:
Trying to convince a user like me or the original poster that we are stupid and defective for not being able to do things in ten minutes like you can,
I did not bother re-reading the thread, but I doubt anyone accused someone of being stupid for not catching on quickly. If the person was called stupid, it was probably because of something stupid the person posted. Such as insulting the "administrators" on the board.

Quote:
is an example of the continuing problem holding back wide acceptance of LINUX on the desktop.
Bovine excrement.

Quote:
LINUX experts are out of touch with the LINUX experience for the ordinary user. They don't understand us, they resent us,
More B.S.

Quote:
and they can't understand why we stubbornly refuse to memorize or make thick books of notes about arcane gibberish.
Not true. Although I am excruciatingly far from being an expert, I do understand why some people stubbornly refuse to learn. It is called, as you referred to, stupidity. It is stupid to want to use something different if one does not want to learn how to use it.

It should not be necessary to point out the problem with the "arcane gibberish" reference.

Quote:
They are especially upset that we won't use LINUX they way they want us to, i.e., become experts on the command line.
Again, experienced users advice new users on the best way to use the system. If a beginner does not want to learn, it is not the fault of those offering advice.
 
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:08 AM   #24
brianL
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I'm not a professional systems administrator or a Linux expert. The only qualifications I've got are the ability to read and follow instructions. Learning Linux or anything else takes time, there are no magic pills.
I'm lucky, I've got a cheap (initial cost, anyway) HP printer that's been recognised by every distro I've thrown at it.
 
Old 12-03-2013, 10:17 AM   #25
suicidaleggroll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikech View Post
they can't understand why we stubbornly refuse to memorize or make thick books of notes
All of the rest of your rant can be safely ignored, this quote is the root of your problem. If you refuse to memorize or take notes, then how can you possibly expect to learn anything? This applies to all walks of life, not just Linux. It applies to Windows, your daily life, your job (whatever that may be, technical or not), relationships (both romantic and non)...everything. If you refuse to memorize and refuse to take notes, you will never learn anything, and blaming the rest of us for your willful ignorance is blatant stupidity.
 
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:43 AM   #26
DavidMcCann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikech View Post
For instance, I just installed a new version of Mint (16) and it did not recognize my HP 722c printer (which is on the LINUX approved list). I can't add it either using the GUI. That is a 20 year old printer that has been recognized by every other version of LINUX for the last 20 years (although in the old days I had to tinker to get it to work).
A quick trip to HP's website shows the company no longer support it. After 20 years, you're lucky it's still alive!
Quote:
LINUX experts are ... can't understand why we stubbornly refuse to memorize or make thick books of notes about arcane gibberish. They are especially upset that we won't use LINUX they way they want us to, i.e., become experts on the command line.
I don't consider myself an expert and I never advocate using the CLI in preference to the GUI, but my computer days started when you got an OS on a floppy disk, and taught yourself with a manual: no internet. If you can't be bothered to learn or make notes, what do you expect?
 
Old 12-03-2013, 11:10 AM   #27
zrdc28
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Ninety five percent of knowing how to set up any Linux system is knowing how to use Google, and know how to cut and paste.
 
Old 12-03-2013, 11:34 AM   #28
m.a.l.'s pa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrdc28 View Post
Ninety five percent of knowing how to set up any Linux system is knowing how to use Google, and know how to cut and paste.
Or not even necessarily Google, but just knowing how to do good web searches.
 
Old 12-03-2013, 01:15 PM   #29
Zyblin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrdc28 View Post
Ninety five percent of knowing how to set up any Linux system is knowing how to use Google, and know how to cut and paste.
And the other five percent is banging your head against your desk ;-)
 
Old 12-03-2013, 01:33 PM   #30
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyblin View Post
And the other five percent is banging your head against your desk ;-)
Those 5% of head-banging are, at least for me, splitted in 3%: I really can't figure it out, and 2%: I did something really really dumb.
 
  


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