LinuxQuestions.org
Support LQ: Use code LQ3 and save $3 on Domain Registration
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Linux Forums > Linux - Newbie
User Name
Password
Linux - Newbie This Linux forum is for members that are new to Linux.
Just starting out and have a question? If it is not in the man pages or the how-to's this is the place!

Notices


Reply
  Search this Thread
Old 11-04-2013, 08:13 PM   #1
DavidLee1A
Member
 
Registered: Dec 2012
Distribution: Debian Wheezy amd64
Posts: 123
Blog Entries: 12

Rep: Reputation: 5
One issue with Linux Distros is you pay a price


Some Newbies will eventually run into this: I find that I have a habit of immersing myself in linux for a while and then moving to other things once my "project" is running nice. Well, I needed to get a new printer ... so now I have to install the drivers and get everything running and right now I don't have the time and patience to mess with it. I'm fed up with windows but Linux is higher maintenance sometimes. Thus, you pay the price of higher maintance in having time to forget linux commands/methods and having to relearn them when you need them.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 08:25 PM   #2
lleb
Senior Member
 
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Florida
Distribution: CentOS/Fedora
Posts: 2,630

Rep: Reputation: 495Reputation: 495Reputation: 495Reputation: 495Reputation: 495
no need to pay that price in time if you buy hardware that is FOSS friendly.

if you fail to purchase hardware that functions properly with Linux, then not to be rude, but that is your fault. plus all it does it provide more money for companies that continue to ignore the FOSS community. I personally refuse to support companies that do not provide Linux drivers for their hardware. its that simple.

that way the companies that are supporting FOSS get more money and thus will have more to continue to invest in FOSS support.

as a side note, Kyocera, Lexmark, HP, and many others are so simple to install in Linux and OSx vs windows its not even funny.

HPs in OSx are connect them to the network and poof OSx sees the printer and it just works. In Linux its a single line command and poof you are printing.

MS world its download 150M+ driver, wait for it to unpack, install for 10-30min, reboot and PRAY the printer works.

Last edited by lleb; 11-04-2013 at 08:27 PM.
 
3 members found this post helpful.
Old 11-04-2013, 08:30 PM   #3
jefro
Moderator
 
Registered: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,374

Rep: Reputation: 2198Reputation: 2198Reputation: 2198Reputation: 2198Reputation: 2198Reputation: 2198Reputation: 2198Reputation: 2198Reputation: 2198Reputation: 2198Reputation: 2198
I agree with the OP. It gets worse too. Kernel and apps change and dependency hell happens.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 08:32 PM   #4
suicidaleggroll
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Nov 2010
Location: Colorado
Distribution: OpenSUSE, CentOS
Posts: 5,258

Rep: Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidLee1A View Post
Some Newbies will eventually run into this: I find that I have a habit of immersing myself in linux for a while and then moving to other things once my "project" is running nice. Well, I needed to get a new printer ... so now I have to install the drivers and get everything running and right now I don't have the time and patience to mess with it. I'm fed up with windows but Linux is higher maintenance sometimes. Thus, you pay the price of higher maintance in having time to forget linux commands/methods and having to relearn them when you need them.
So your complaint is that Linux works so reliably, that you quite literally set it and forget it, and have to re-learn the commands when setting up a new system? This is in comparison to Windows where it's failing so regularly that you never forget what steps you need to fix it? Which one costs more in maintenance again?

Why don't you just write a text document describing the steps/commands to set things up as reference for your future self?

I'm not so sure I agree with the underlying implication either. My office purchased a new printer not too long ago. In about 30 minutes I had it set up and running properly on 10 different Linux machines, all from my workstation in my office without disturbing the users on any other system. I then spent the next hour setting up the printer on four Windows machines, displacing the user from each machine for 15 minutes while I had to sit in their chair and set things up for them (two man hours required total since each user was unproductive while I was setting up the printer on their machine). So 0.5 man hours to set it up on 10 Linux machines, versus 2 man hours to set it up on 4 Windows machines. By my count, that makes the maintenance cost 10 times higher for Windows.

Last edited by suicidaleggroll; 11-04-2013 at 08:39 PM.
 
4 members found this post helpful.
Old 11-04-2013, 09:26 PM   #5
Zyblin
Member
 
Registered: Oct 2013
Distribution: Fedora 20 Jam-KDE Spin (32bit-PAE) and Debian/KDE Testing (64bit)
Posts: 131

Rep: Reputation: 13
No one would ever buy Mac specific hardware for a PC. They would make sure the hardware they want or need works with what they have. Same goes for Linux. Always make sure the whatever is bought works with your set up. It really is simple to do. Hardware compatibility lists are everywhere.

Also. Does anyone remember what "dependency hell" was really like back in, for example, the late 90's? While there is a "light" version of it now, kind of, it is nothing even close to what it was before. In such a short time Linux has come very far.

Last edited by Zyblin; 11-04-2013 at 09:56 PM.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 09:29 PM   #6
suicidaleggroll
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Nov 2010
Location: Colorado
Distribution: OpenSUSE, CentOS
Posts: 5,258

Rep: Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyblin View Post
Also. Does anyone remember what "dependency hell" was really like back in, for example, the late 90's?
I learned Linux on RH7 back in 2000-2001, so yes, I remember...lol. I have no desire to repeat that experience.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 09:31 PM   #7
TroN-0074
Senior Member
 
Registered: Dec 2011
Location: Michigan USA
Distribution: OpenSUSE 13.2 64bit-Gnome on ASUS U52F
Posts: 1,444

Rep: Reputation: 340Reputation: 340Reputation: 340Reputation: 340
Usually HP printers are Linux friendly so if you are in the market for a printer look into HP
 
Old 11-04-2013, 09:47 PM   #8
Randicus Draco Albus
Senior Member
 
Registered: May 2011
Location: Hiding somewhere on planet Earth.
Distribution: OpenBSD
Posts: 1,644
Blog Entries: 8

Rep: Reputation: 577Reputation: 577Reputation: 577Reputation: 577Reputation: 577Reputation: 577
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidLee1A View Post
Thus, you pay the price of higher maintance in having time to forget linux commands/methods and having to relearn them when you need them.
That is an interesting observation. I cannot relate to it, which is what makes it interesting. There is no chance that I shall ever remember every little trick I have come across. That is why I keep notes for future reference. When a time comes to do something I cannot remember how to, I open one of files with notes and read for a few seconds.
 
2 members found this post helpful.
Old 11-04-2013, 09:58 PM   #9
suicidaleggroll
LQ Guru
 
Registered: Nov 2010
Location: Colorado
Distribution: OpenSUSE, CentOS
Posts: 5,258

Rep: Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947Reputation: 1947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randicus Draco Albus View Post
That is an interesting observation. I cannot relate to it, which is what makes it interesting. There is no chance that I shall ever remember every little trick I have come across. That is why I keep notes for future reference. When a time comes to do something I cannot remember how to, I open one of files with notes and read for a few seconds.
Agreed.

My "linux_guide" document is just over 700 lines long right now. It contains short notes to myself about how to do things that I do or encounter often enough that googling it every time is inefficient, but rare enough that I'm not able to memorize the steps.

examples:
Code:
libtool: Version mismatch error.  This is libtool 2.2.4, but the
libtool: definition of this LT_INIT comes from libtool 2.2.6b.
libtool: You should recreate aclocal.m4 with macros from libtool 2.2.4
libtool: and run autoconf again.
        run "autoreconf -i -f" and try again
Code:
IDL: Unable to start IDL_IDLBRIDGE slave process.
google-chrome unable to start
        The cause of both of these is the permissions on /dev/shm
        As root, run "chmod 1777 /dev/shm" to fix it.  If the problem is recurring on reboot, add this line to rc.local
Code:
3ware driver installation
        http://www.3ware.com/kb/article.aspx?id=12690
        Find the source code that applies to the current kernel (uname -r)
        Make sure there are no spaces in the directory structure for this source code
        make
        cp 3w-sas.ko /lib/modules/<kernel>/kernel/drivers/scsi
        yum install mkinitrd if you don't already have it
        mkinitrd -v -f --with=3w-sas --with=scsi_mod --with=sd_mod /boot/<boot_img>.img <kernel>
                boot_img could be initrd-<kernel>.img, initramfs-<kernel>.img, etc.  Check /boot to see what's there, and check /etc/grub.conf to see what img file is being loaded when you boot
        when it's done, reboot so it boots from the new kernel img file (the one with the 3ware driver), make sure tw_cli and 3dm2 see the card
And many, many others.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 10:26 PM   #10
Zyblin
Member
 
Registered: Oct 2013
Distribution: Fedora 20 Jam-KDE Spin (32bit-PAE) and Debian/KDE Testing (64bit)
Posts: 131

Rep: Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by suicidaleggroll View Post
I learned Linux on RH7 back in 2000-2001, so yes, I remember...lol. I have no desire to repeat that experience.
Me either. That is one experience that gives me a headache just thinking about. I think the first one I tried was Suse 6 and, though I can't remember which, Red Hat 5 or 6. It has been awhile, a lot of changes and a LOT more distro's. I guess when you first try or start something that long ago you get to appreciate how good things are now, even with any possible flaws here and there.

Ok, getting back to topic. Another thing I did, other than writing notes, was to thumbtack a few memo type notes on my wall, near the computer. Keeping a notebook with all of this is much better though. Or create a text file with all this info, cut and paste it together, and print it out if writing is not something one is into. Finally creating a digital copy and storing it, for example, online at Spideroak or your favorite online storage place. However if you are having PC issues, and not able to access the digital version, you are screwed.

Last edited by Zyblin; 11-04-2013 at 10:29 PM.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 11:10 PM   #11
zrdc28
Member
 
Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Alabama USA
Distribution: Slackware current
Posts: 276

Rep: Reputation: 51
MyNotex is a great way to keep this info, I keep it on my computer and sync with dropbox and have it wherever I go.
 
Old 11-04-2013, 11:45 PM   #12
tommcd
Senior Member
 
Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Philadelphia PA USA
Distribution: Lubuntu, Slackware
Posts: 2,230

Rep: Reputation: 291Reputation: 291Reputation: 291
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidLee1A View Post
Well, I needed to get a new printer ... so now I have to install the drivers and get everything running and right now I don't have the time and patience to mess with it.
In the future, if you ever need a printer, go with HP.
My HP Photosmart printer was easier to install in Linux (Slackware and Lubuntu) than it was in Windows. In Linux it was working straight out of the box. On Windows the supplied driver did not work. I had to download the basic (not full featured) driver from the HP website and fuss with it for about an hour before it would install and run properly on Windows XP.

Some printers are easier to get running on Linux than Windows!
As others have said, you need to choose your hardware wisely. This is much easier these days than it used to be since more hardware manufacturers are designing products with Linux support.
 
1 members found this post helpful.
Old 11-05-2013, 12:10 AM   #13
jmc1987
Member
 
Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Distribution: Debian, CentOS, windows 7
Posts: 872

Rep: Reputation: 112Reputation: 112
Well as for my Desktop, installing the Driver from their website and building the kernel module comes to basically killing Xorg and running the script, easy as that. Overcourse you do have to have some development tools, but Nvidia Directions have always been straight forward.

On the easier note, installing Nvida drivers from Debians repo is far easier and Faster, then just run nvidia-xconfig and your already off to a good start. So now you don't like tweak xorg.conf? Well Nvidia has added a nice little nvidia-settings, Run as root and save to xorg.conf. WOW another easy.

Now my Dell Laptop life isn't as easy, but easy. I run Debian on it too, but I have to install b43 braodcome firmware, but also right out of Debians repos. Now for the Vidia Card is radeon x1200's model and since AMD doesn't push so much on Linux Support, they said the hell with me and droped support for the Driver a few xorg versions back. Thanks to the Open Source Communities, they have built a well Working open source driver for the card, and it actually out performed my Windows Driver when it was running Vista. At first I thought it was odd, but hell in Debian with the Opensource driver I could play some 3d games. Another win for Linux.

So you can't down Linux based on your choices. You can only down your choices for which you chose to run Linux on. Anytime I buy hardware, I make sure it has Linux Support Bottom Line. Your life becomes 10x easier to deal with it.

As for tweaking and tooning, take notes. I run servers and often building new web servers, do you think I remember all my build commands off the top of my head? Know I make notes and guild lines to help me keep things Uniform. That is something all Tech Savvy Administrators will do if they have to constantly customize things.

Last I checked, when I didn't take notes with Windows, I was stuck relearning the same thing over and over again. So your argument should be "Why don't newbies take notes of what they done"
 
2 members found this post helpful.
Old 11-05-2013, 08:19 AM   #14
onebuck
Moderator
 
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Midwest USA, Central Illinois
Distribution: Slackware®
Posts: 12,541
Blog Entries: 23

Rep: Reputation: 1943Reputation: 1943Reputation: 1943Reputation: 1943Reputation: 1943Reputation: 1943Reputation: 1943Reputation: 1943Reputation: 1943Reputation: 1943Reputation: 1943
Member Response

Hi,

System & Admin documentation is a good habit to continue while working with any OS in order to keep yourself sane. I do have a good memory but rely on my docs/notes/scribs created during any system/admin sessions for particular systems. Heck, I even doc my network, printers and even overall diary entries to refresh my memory whenever performing actions on equipment. Each systems has a spiraled notebook, paged and no erasures or page removal to keep the document sane & legal. Just cross out then initial to justify the changes. Saved my butt more than once.

Old habit, I kept detailed LAB notes so that at any moment the status or necessary changes made to get something working or minute details about experimental setup(s) could be understood. Just like commenting your code so that at any moment you could understand what is being done or had been done to get something working.

Quote:
"Knowledge is of two kinds. We Know a subject ourselves, or we know where we can find information upon it."- Samuel Johnson
 
Old 11-05-2013, 12:31 PM   #15
Habitual
LQ Addict
 
Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Distribution: LM17.1/Xfce4.11.8
Posts: 7,159
Blog Entries: 10

Rep: Reputation: 1968Reputation: 1968Reputation: 1968Reputation: 1968Reputation: 1968Reputation: 1968Reputation: 1968Reputation: 1968Reputation: 1968Reputation: 1968Reputation: 1968
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyblin View Post
Does anyone remember what "dependency hell" was really like back in, for example, the late 90's?
Sure do, all day of compiling just to get a desktop.

Sound on early Slack kicked my gluteus maximus.
 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LXer: Humble Bundle Does it a Third Time, 5 Great Indie Games at 'Pay What You Want' Price! LXer Syndicated Linux News 1 04-13-2011 10:19 AM
LXer: Analyzing The Eee PC Windows Linux Price Issue LXer Syndicated Linux News 0 05-09-2008 10:20 AM
Kmplayer will not pay file on usb drive: Permissions issue? arubin Slackware 2 11-28-2007 01:36 PM
LXer: What Price Will Linux Pay to Be MainStream? LXer Syndicated Linux News 0 05-11-2006 05:21 PM
Hardware issue? GUI Freeze on Linux Distros reeprflame Linux - Hardware 5 10-12-2004 11:37 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:47 PM.

Main Menu
Advertisement
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration