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Old 11-22-2008, 08:10 AM   #16
H_TeXMeX_H
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I'd have to agree that helping people with homework only helps them fail. Here's a good example:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...6/#post3344907

It's also true that many institutions make you sign a waiver to respect a 'code of ethics'. However, this is only so that they can take legal action against you if you do cheat. From what I've seen, few people are truly concerned with the ethics of their actions, so I doubt an ethics-based argument will convince them. Besides, ethics is too abstract a concept for most people. Instead, know that every time you ask for help with homework and someone else does it for you, you're the one that loses in the end. If you need resources to solve the problem I will give you those, other than that, I will not help with the problem if I think it is homework.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 08:43 AM   #17
onebuck
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Hi,

'H' I agree the 'code of ethics letter' may seem to be a forgotten method. Some institutions don't enforce as some. I know of several students that were placed on probation and the results were dramatic. Just slapping the back of their hands doesn't work. To corporal, so if the student realizes that they will be thrown out then the consequences will be theirs to explain. Be it to their parents or a future employer who does a full background check for the federal support job that the student applied for. Since he/she went to another school after a major screw up.

Sure we should not need to sigh such a letter. Ethics should be something natural but we are social. So what you see and accept may cause you some problems someday if you moral fiber is weak.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 09:01 AM   #18
kr4ey
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I hate to be rude but....This thread is not "Homework" is it?
Or being lazy on how or where to find answers is it?
This is about newbies posting on LQ about trying to finding answers to how to use Linux, and not finding them. And sometimes double posting. So what if they double post, they did get the answer they wanted and there system is not fixed. Like this thread.

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...urgent-685258/

Hell he or she has probably already formatted there Linux partition and resized there Windows partition and will never visit this forum ever again or use Linux again, just because people are cruel. When I stated using Linux 10 years ago I never knew about a howto or Google.

What the users did on the above thread and others is cruel. And it would turn me off from ever using Linux and this forum ever again.

Let it rest and help people... That's what this forum is about.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 10:03 AM   #19
MensaWater
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You didn't originate this thread so how can you state what it's "all about"?

I thought the OP made it clear what this thread was all about and responded to my interpretation of that.

As to being somewhat cruel you're correct that some people seem to live for doing nothing other than attacking folks that ask questions. It makes me wonder why they come here in the first place.

However, on occasion I do believe you need to be a little rude to folks that have made it clear they don't think they should follow the rules or do their own work. I have a lot more respect for an idiot that tries his hardest to learn but can't than I do for a genius that can't be bothered to try. Believe me I've worked with both types and I'm a lot more likely to be rude to the latter than the former.

You may think it is rude to tell someone doing obvious homework that the point in such exercises is to learn but I don't. I do think however that when you do answer you should actually explain the elements of the answer so the person asking has an idea how to get there by himself the next time.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 10:22 AM   #20
kr4ey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onebuck View Post
I don't understand why fellow LQ members don't see the problem when they answer such posts/threads with answers that will intern be used by the poster. Examples are good but the poster should perform some effort on his/her part and not plagiarize.
Maybe from the above quote and from the comments from the OP on this thread.

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...rinter-685275/

Maybe we all should sit back and take a look at ourselves before making such stupid comments, when trying to help others. It does not help when new users are trying to find answers.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 11:25 AM   #21
onebuck
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Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by kr4ey View Post
Maybe from the above quote and from the comments from the OP on this thread.

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...rinter-685275/

Maybe we all should sit back and take a look at ourselves before making such stupid comments, when trying to help others. It does not help when new users are trying to find answers.
You have a right to your opinion as I do mine. Too label it as stupid, I look at myself daily in the mirror and know where I stand in this world both ethically or morally. I fail to see how to instruct someone in the manner that you linked from one of my posts will help. I post to assist and I do find that ethics and morality here on the LQ Newbie forum can be lacking. Once you loose the ethics where else will you fail? What is wrong with the post that you linked?

My original statements stand. I see too many posters here on the LQ Newbie forum trying to get someone to do 'THEIR' homework. It's one thing to example or direct to another reference but to flatly post direct answers is wrong. Especially if the poster hasn't attempted to perform any form of the assigned tasks. I will sometimes ask what has been performed. But generally I can see a homework assignment since I've given enough out in my time here on this earth.

As for new users to find 'answers' statement. No, theres nothing wrong in that since it is another condition or situation were the case is totally different. Therefore assistance is different as per your linked post.

I maintain a Wiki here on LQ and I send a lot time on it to aid the GNU/Linux community. This wiki provides a lot of useful links that will aid all, not just newbies. I reference it a lot in my posts, see my sig. My point is that there is more than direct answers, a map will aid you but if you can't read it then you are lost. Effort, desire and energy are required if you want to use something properly, be it GNU/Linux or whatever.

You are welcome to look at 'Slackware-Links'. More than just SlackwareŽ links!

Last edited by onebuck; 11-23-2008 at 03:33 AM. Reason: correct error
 
Old 11-22-2008, 01:44 PM   #22
Larry Webb
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onebuck, I do not question your ethics or standards and approve of your teachings to a certain extent. Where I disagree is the line in the sand you have made.

My impression is that if I at least do not have a twelve year minimum education and majoring in some type of computer education we should not be trying to use the linux system. I used my first computer approx. ten years ago and did not hear of linux till three years ago. My point is that when trying to learn how to modify a file in terminal using a live cd and vi. After numerous tries and posts on my part a member from New Orleans recognized that I had no idea what I was doing and gave me a step by step on the modification of that file. I have forgot what the thread title was but never will forget the lesson he spelled out for me. I almost swore off of LQ at that time. What I am trying to say is not every linux want to be is going to a university nor has a 100 IQ but should feel welcome to LQ

Last edited by Larry Webb; 11-22-2008 at 01:47 PM.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 02:45 PM   #23
H_TeXMeX_H
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@ kr4ey

I didn't see anything out of the ordinary in either of those posts. There were only some small misunderstandings and frustrations, nothing major. Mostly what triggered the problems in those threads is the generality and ambiguity of the OPs' questions. In both threads the OP asked very general and even ambiguous questions. These tend to be answered by either telling the OP to google it or point them to a general site to go from or just RTFM. Why ? Because of the nature of the question that was asked. It's true RTFM is not said all that often, but in some cases it may even be warranted.

It is the OP's job to ask a question that is specific, to the point, and that makes sense. Also, try not to write run-on sentences. I mean, come on, it's the least I can ask to just write short, concise, easy to read sentences that get to the point. Don't ramble on about different topics that have nothing to do with the question asked. I really have a hard time reading these kind of sentences mostly not because they are run-ons, but because they lack logic. The logic is lost in long run-on sentences, the subject becomes ambiguous after a few missed punctuations, the purpose dissolves into the sea of rambling words... at this point I stop reading and close the tab. That's why you probably won't find me responding to threads like this.

I also avoid threads that are titled "HELPS !!!!1111 MeSSSSS !!@" "I needs helps wis ze linuzz" "Wuz diz linuz, nezz hepl" "UUUUUURRRRRRGGGGEEEEEEEENNNNNNNTTTTTTTT !!!!!!!!!!!!111111". No ! Just no. You won't get an answer from me by doing this. I consider this trolling whether the OP is doing it intentionally or not. You can think I am mean, but I've had enough. The people that do this also tend to never be seen again after this first post. Not beneficial for me or them. They will simply have to learn not to do this.

I also understand that many people are not native English speakers ... neither am I actually. As long as you make an effort to make yourself understood, I and I'm sure many others will help get things straightened out. If you make an effort so will I, that's my policy. If you misspell words, start threads titled "HHHHEEEELLPPSSS" containing either a few short, unintelligible phrases or very long, incoherent run-on sentences, then you are either trolling or not making any kind of effort and thus don't care too much about the question you are asking (so then why should I care ?), because it is not likely to be answered at all or in a nice and helpful way.

And now probably, you will say that I am mean, inconsiderate, and arrogant. Maybe ... or maybe I just don't like it when people don't make an effort to solve their own problem. Because, as onebuck said, this is a place where we help you help yourself. There's actually not much we can do to help you directly, all we can do is help you get the resources you need to solve your problem. If you don't care enough, then there is no hope in solving your problem, because in this case we can do nothing really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Webb View Post
What I am trying to say is not every linux want to be is going to a university nor has a 100 IQ but should feel welcome to LQ
I agree that everyone should feel welcome, and I really don't think one's IQ has anything to do with this. There was a saying, I saw it in an auto body shop, it said what is important is not your intelligence, or wealth, or knowledge, or fame, or pretty much anything else, what is most important is your attitude, because you can have everything, but if you don't have the right attitude you'll really have nothing. If you have the right attitude then you are welcome here and you will likely have a lot to gain. If you have the wrong attitude, in many cases you are still welcome, but you will likely not get much out of it.

Now that was a long post, I don't like long posts ... darn.

Last edited by H_TeXMeX_H; 11-22-2008 at 02:47 PM.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 03:21 PM   #24
onebuck
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Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Webb View Post
onebuck, I do not question your ethics or standards and approve of your teachings to a certain extent. Where I disagree is the line in the sand you have made.

My impression is that if I at least do not have a twelve year minimum education and majoring in some type of computer education we should not be trying to use the linux system. I used my first computer approx. ten years ago and did not hear of linux till three years ago. My point is that when trying to learn how to modify a file in terminal using a live cd and vi. After numerous tries and posts on my part a member from New Orleans recognized that I had no idea what I was doing and gave me a step by step on the modification of that file. I have forgot what the thread title was but never will forget the lesson he spelled out for me. I almost swore off of LQ at that time. What I am trying to say is not every linux want to be is going to a university nor has a 100 IQ but should feel welcome to LQ
No one said a degree or anything of the sort is required to use GNU/Linux. The line in the sand as you state is fading. That's my frustration! I have tried to simply state that we need to have some ethics and moral ground. Nothing wrong with that position but if you feel their is that too is your right.

I don't try to alienate a user but I may come across as terse but that's me. I try my best to point the user in the right direction even if it's a homework problem (pet peeve). I know how it is to start with something fresh and the requirements to gain some understanding so I do see where you are coming from. It's just too many want the easy route.

I do appreciate our Mods here on LQ and find that they do a great job with the many personalities they must contend with. Sometimes I'm sure they miss something unless it is reported.
Glad to hear you haven't given up on LQ.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 04:11 PM   #25
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H TexMex H Well I disagree with you on how a thread it titled and worded. I don't care how its titled or worded if a user needs help he or she should get it regardless. Like in this thread, it would have been nicer if somebody would given the OP some direction instead of kicking he or she out the door before they even get thru it.

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...urgent-685258/
 
Old 11-22-2008, 05:27 PM   #26
XavierP
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Titling a thread "Help Me" or "Urgent" shows a disregard for even the friendliest advice. This is a help forum, so help is assumed. This is a Linux forum, so why would the user need to put that as a title? And finally, this is a volunteer forum and no one is paid to be here, so no thread is more urgent than any other thread. The whole point is to help us help you - if you put something meaningful in the title and post all relevant info our members can make a judgment. If you post "Help Me - Firefox stopped working" there is nowhere for us to go.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 05:41 PM   #27
kr4ey
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If you post "Help Me - Firefox stopped working" there is nowhere for us to go.
That is foolish example. You simply ask the OP for more information, just don't disregard his post (or post something stupid).
 
Old 11-22-2008, 05:47 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierP View Post
Titling a thread "Help Me" or "Urgent" shows a disregard for even the friendliest advice.
There's also the issue of usefulness. Let's suppose that every single thread were retitled, overnight by the moderators, to "Help Me". I can't imagine anyone getting any help at all in such a mess. The rules here aren't onerous in any meaning of the term. They were designed to get the greatest amount of help to the greatest number of people. If you (kr4key) and others, decide that the "Help Me" posters are deserving of your diligent attention, then you are saying that those who post by the rules aren't. That's simply not fair to those who take the extra effort to do it right.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 06:14 PM   #29
kr4ey
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So your saying its OK for the helpers here at LQ to go ballistic when a user posts a question that the helper knows is easy and not hard to find. That's what it amounts to. If that were the case we would not need forums. And the OP of this thread has nothing better to do but complain.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 06:22 PM   #30
Quakeboy02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kr4ey View Post
So your saying its OK for the helpers here at LQ to go ballistic when a user posts a question that the helper knows is easy and not hard to find. That's what it amounts to. If that were the case we would not need forums. And the OP of this thread has nothing better to do but complain.
What I'm saying is don't respond to "Help Me" without at least letting the poster know that they aren't helping themselves by using such a subject.

OK, right now, not later, but right now, click on the "New Thread" button. Now, read it. What does it say about "Help Me" threads? It's right there at the top on the left.
 
  


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