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Old 11-20-2008, 06:32 PM   #1
onebuck
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Newbies to Linux, LQ and Ethics


Hi,

I come from academia therefore my intent is to aid the people who try to use shortcuts to achieve something without effort (cheat).

I'm finding that a lot of the newbies, but not all are soliciting direct homework problem requests. There's nothing wrong with the assistance of homework but the drift of most is homework laziness. Education is important to excel in this professional world along with ethics.

Most higher education students at institutions sign some form of a 'code of ethics'. Students are required to sign this letter and to abide by the rules of the letter. I wonder how many read the letter or even the LQ rules.
Most professionals don't have problem with the signing of a ethics letter when they accept a position. Students should realize that to cut corners and too blatantly cheat will not help them to gain the knowledge to perform in the professional world.

I don't understand why fellow LQ members don't see the problem when they answer such posts/threads with answers that will intern be used by the poster. Examples are good but the poster should perform some effort on his/her part and not plagiarize.

Maybe 'professional ethics' is not a problem for some but when you fail ethic rules then you cannot be trusted. And that's probably why we are having so many problems with some of todays youth in higher education.

I'm not being judgmental but I do see a trend! The easy way is not always the path to follow.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 07:29 PM   #2
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When it obvious to me that it is homework I generally point that out to the poster and tell them the point of homework is to do the work so they learn. See this thread:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...-linux-682134/

Others also noted it was homework and one of the moderator closed the thread.

However, the main point of LQ is not insure that students don't cheat but rather than people who are stuck or have a problem get help. I for one don't assume that most questions are homework but rather are people doing real work either for their own home setup or at their jobs. If I'm going to err I'd rather accidentally do someone's homework for them than to leave a real newbie searching for help hanging. Usually I do try to add explanations as to why I did what I did in the hopes the newbie will learn how to figure it out in future. This usually includes mention of using the man pages.

Having been a professional Admin since 1991 I know that almost as important as knowing how to do something is the ability to research information when you do NOT know. In the old days that research typically required cracking manuals and finding the information therein. I'm not going to bemoan the ease that younger admins have doing searches on the internet or asking questions in forums these days especially when on occasion I myself use those same sources for things that are new to me.

In the end the student who cheats to get the answer only ends up cheating himself by not making the effort to learn. In this industry the average new hire goes through at least 2 (and often more than that) technical people to get jobs and we usually are pretty good at distinguishing the people who know what they are talking about from those who think they'll coast on having a degree or a certificate.

In point of fact the main qualification for most technical jobs is the ability to solve problems. It is very difficult for people who only have book learning to skate because the first time a system crashes they'll be stuck. I saw this demonstrated rather well in a recent troubleshooting exercise where one person couldn't get past the most basic step of getting logged into a system he didn't know root on.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 07:49 PM   #3
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I've always thought that at least 30% of students are just plain lazy (which is why I am not associated with academia - but I'm happy to take on a student who's genuinely keen to learn).

I find that professional ethics is optional for most managers; I was working in a research lab and I had managers hounding me to do all sorts of unethical things - I just told them to shove it - they can do their own criminal work - what sort of dope would it take to be some overpaid moron's fallguy? (Said research institute has since shot itself in the foot multiple times and lost all credibility with the international community.)

Anyway, I certainly don't see much changing with lazy students; as 'Cecil Adams' puts it: The straight dope - fighting ignorance since 1973 (it's taking much longer than we thought).

Tom Lehrer had something to say about ethics: If you've got integrity, it means your price is very high! He also had something to say about plagiarism: Plagiarize! Let no one else's work evade your eyes! There's a reason the good lord gave you eyes, so don't shade your eyes, but plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize! Only be sure to call it "research".
 
Old 11-20-2008, 08:16 PM   #4
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Hey! Not all lazy students are cheaters now! A few years back I was a lazy student after all but I never did anything that could be considered unethical... I just rushed everything the night before it was due =P! So I did the research in a rush =P, I think the whole point is no-body is going to do anything that is going to be plagiarized, I don't think it's about not wanting to help but alot of students would be willing to do the good old copy and paste. After all, other people is a good way to research, everything you do in research is just a collection of other people's information as such but I would agree that alot of people should learn to use search engines better .
 
Old 11-20-2008, 08:51 PM   #5
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Hi,

My point, plagiarize something from LQ, a net search or from a book it is still not right. To use an example to understand something is one thing but to do as some have pointed out 'copy & paste' is still cheating. No excuse.

I for one have seen too many students attempt to pull this off with crib cabinets thinking we didn't know their lab report came from the frat house files. Their grades and performance evaluations reflected their work/effort. Our labs objectives and lab setups were completely redone and rotated to prevent this. Really peeved some students but a necessary action to prevent this from happening. Heck educators can be just as unethical by using someone else's lesson/lab plans. That's lazy to me plus not ethical.

I make no excuses for this type be it a student or a colleague. I just believe we need to walk the higher ground and do what is right.

Some of what I've spoken off is just frustrating to me as I know it harms everyone in the long term. I don't want a professional to get a job because he cribbed or cheated his way to the job. A lot of certification societies do tend to filter the bad out but not always since some find a way through somehow.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:44 PM   #6
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How about the piece on tonight's CBS news---kids posting instructions on You Tube on how to cheat.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:51 PM   #7
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Linux is a light unto a world bathed in darkness. I liken her to a woman with class. She doesn't ask for money, but she needs to know you're through with the town slut, who requires money up front, defragging, is always infected, and blabs what you do in private over the whole Internet.

Linux does not divulge her secrets to the faint of heart. You have to explore. If you try linux, and then go back to Windows, linux will never speak to you again. Windows was created for women, children, and people with adhd. Linux was created for MEN. It is an operating system, but also a rite of passage. You have to earn linux, with blood sweat and tears.

But I promise you, after you learn some of the secrets, your progress will multiply exponentially. Digging is how you learn about linux. Half the purpose of linux homework is acquainting the student with the vast array of documentation that comes with linux.

Here's the bottom line: Money only comes to professionals who want to work. I know this is America, but people who think a college degree will fool computer professionals into thinking a job candidate is really sharp, are out of their minds.

Look, if you steal homework, plagarize, and just sort of slime your way through college; only companies on a really tight IT budget will hire you. They'll get some guy who's a marketing manager to come lie to you, and tell you he works in IT, how great a place IT is to work, and that he started at a low salary, but raises come fast, and you'll make a fortune if you stick with the company.

But your first day you notice 17 discharged fire extinguishers in the data center, laying all over, and theres a rack that's billowing smoke. So your training for the first day is putting out fires. This place will beat the work out of you. You'll spend all day justifying why you ARE NOT to blame for every problem in the whole company, and not even every problem at that location.

When it's time for your first raise, that same guy from marketing will come to your cube, and hand you a propeller beanie, and say, "Keep up the good work. You'll be driving a Jaguar someday."

Then there will be random people, who seem to find out who the new IT guy is, and his extension, and they will call you. "Hi, my name is Tiffany. I'm 18, and I'm trying to learn how to use a mouse."

You'll say, "Hi Tiffany, I have a propeller beanie. Do you want to see it?"

She'll say, "No. But if you help me, I'll do anything, absolutely anything-to get this mouse to work."

"ANYTHING?"

"Yes, anything. I've tried everything."

"You haven't tried everything, I hope."

And you'll find out where her desk is, go there, and find out her PC isn't powered up, because she hit the power button on the monitor, not the chassis, because it said POWER. You'll see that same guy from marketing walk by, and Tiffany will say, "Hi Cruise. I can't wait 'til tonite."

So you went there for nothing, which is always the way it works with IT, and hot 18 year olds, because hot 18 year olds find men debugging software for 36 solid hours, strung out on Pepsi and Cheetos, without a shower, or change of clothes, or having NOT looked in the mirror over the last 1.5 days; unsexy.

Next year when raise time comes, that marketing guy will have retired at age 30, and another marketing guy, who you don't know will come to your cube, hand you a company pocket protector, and say, "Keep at it champ. Take this pocket protector, on the house. You won't need to buy as many shirts as you have previously. By the way, are all your shirts short sleeve, button front, tight around the belly, and YELLOW? You GEEKSTER!!"

You'll never see natural light again, because your next stop is the salt mine, 2 kilometers under earth's surface, where you'll be chained to your railroad pick.

All because you thought wealth could be obtained, without investment of time or effort. This is what American youth is being sold on. It's the oldest con in the Universe. You show kids all kinds of electronic gadgets, cute bikini models plastered with cosmetics and glitter dust, great cars, luxurious accomodations, fine clothing; and then say, "All this can be yours, and more, if you go to school, and get a degree.

What this really means is: If you're a hard worker, remain focused, on goals within the capability of your talents and skills, and you live on a cash basis, even with automobiles, and invest half your income; you will have all of what you wanted when you were 17, when you're 40.

I cannot personally attest to this, because I'm not that old yet, and I had a little help from my parents. I'm still a hard worker. I don't stick with any single occupation, but I've had some really cool jobs. When I was in High School I went around early in the morning after a snow fall, and rang door bells, asking homeowners if they wanted to be shoveled out; for a fee.

By the time I got to college, I was so grateful not to shovel snow for a living, I really dug in. Busting concrete wouldn't be a bad way to learn work. But kids all have a dream, until school is over. Then they realize they were only putting off the invetible: Failure, because that's what dreamers do.

They go to college because they want to make a fortune. D'oh. Homer Simpson. People who have money don't want everyone else to have money, so they sell kids on dreams, and the kids end up with a diploma on the entertainment center, working at Walmart.

Or worse yet, they find rich women, who buy them everything they want, and let them drink all day long. Until she knows he has no place else to go, because he gave up his apartment, and spent his entire $100.00 of savings on crack. Then she tells him to get lost.

He's drunk, so he gets mad. She calls the cops, and he goes to jail, because it's her house. When he gets released, he's homeless, with the clothes on his back.

But you can only do that last thing if you're lazy, but work out, and are an attractive young male alcoholic, who has zero ambition or morals.

Just remember one thing: Knowing the right person's name can get you alot in this world, if the name belongs to a man trusted to make decisions. Never forget a name. Middle classers have no real authority, so they don't need to remember each other's names, because there's no purpose, other than flattery.

The wealthy never forget a name, and they never burn bridges, at least not all the way.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:55 PM   #8
MensaWater
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Funny. You sound like Dilbert.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 11:52 PM   #9
pinniped
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onebuck View Post
Some of what I've spoken off is just frustrating to me as I know it harms everyone in the long term. I don't want a professional to get a job because he cribbed or cheated his way to the job. A lot of certification societies do tend to filter the bad out but not always since some find a way through somehow.
Well, you're in a minority it seems (which is why it's so frustrating). I left academia because I refused to lower my expectations just so more students could get through and the university can get more funding from the government for being so 'excellent'. I got tired of saying we're doing no one any favors because I sure as hell wouldn't hire a lower grade of graduates and the university's reputation would suffer. (In practice their reputation hasn't suffered because there are even worse diploma mills.) Many colleagues in industry are also groaning about the system, especially when it comes to hiring computer programmers.

I'm a chemist, and in my school days we had to learn a lot of math and quantum mechanics as well. The universities where I had done my undergraduate and doctoral work no longer require the same level of maths and neither have quantum mechanics in the chemistry curriculum. So these subjects which students were expected to know fairly well 80 years ago are no longer required - why, is the world growing dumber? I don't think so - I think that expectations are lowered to push more people through the university system and thus increase profits. Few universities are still dedicated to learning and exploration and not many are willing to turn away the students who really don't have what it takes to make a good chemist. I figured I was wasting my time trying to fight for academic excellence so I left and went into pure research.
 
Old 11-21-2008, 05:52 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by AwesomeMachine View Post
Linux is a light unto a world bathed in darkness. I liken her to a woman with class. She doesn't ask for money, but she needs to know you're through with the town slut, who requires money up front, defragging, is always infected, and blabs what you do in private over the whole Internet.

Linux does not divulge her secrets to the faint of heart. You have to explore. If you try linux, and then go back to Windows, linux will never speak to you again. Windows was created for women, children, and people with adhd. Linux was created for MEN. It is an operating system, but also a rite of passage. You have to earn linux, with blood sweat and tears.
ROTFL (as they say). You cannot be serious!

Ethics? That'th down Thouth, ithn't it?

Last edited by brianL; 11-21-2008 at 09:47 AM.
 
Old 11-21-2008, 08:10 AM   #11
onebuck
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinniped View Post
Well, you're in a minority it seems (which is why it's so frustrating). I left academia because I refused to lower my expectations just so more students could get through and the university can get more funding from the government for being so 'excellent'. I got tired of saying we're doing no one any favors because I sure as hell wouldn't hire a lower grade of graduates and the university's reputation would suffer. (In practice their reputation hasn't suffered because there are even worse diploma mills.) Many colleagues in industry are also groaning about the system, especially when it comes to hiring computer programmers.

I'm a chemist, and in my school days we had to learn a lot of math and quantum mechanics as well. The universities where I had done my undergraduate and doctoral work no longer require the same level of maths and neither have quantum mechanics in the chemistry curriculum. So these subjects which students were expected to know fairly well 80 years ago are no longer required - why, is the world growing dumber? I don't think so - I think that expectations are lowered to push more people through the university system and thus increase profits. Few universities are still dedicated to learning and exploration and not many are willing to turn away the students who really don't have what it takes to make a good chemist. I figured I was wasting my time trying to fight for academic excellence so I left and went into pure research.
You must be talking about a public university. I come from a private one and yes some of what you say goes on there too. I fortunately also worked in the professional environment where there were expectations that you must meet or out the door.
I have found that the students that interned or worked in secondary school tend to understand the expectations a lot better. Most of my work study students excelled because of the work habit instilled and guidance by our staff. These guys/gals really performed the duties as required. Being in a Lab gave them some stature and respect from their peers.

I hope they remember the habits and duties that were placed upon them as I am very proud of their accomplishments to date. Being a private school helped in some ways to filter better quality students. Please don't misunderstand we got a share of students that were admitted based on their monetary stature. Most of these students were the ones in the Frats that used the crib cabinets, some went on to get a MBA. Nothing wrong in that but I really won't want a engineer with those ethics or morals.

I do remember some students in the undergraduate program that had some difficulties academically. Some of this was due to the quality of prep or secondary education. The writing skills and even simple grammar was terrible. Sure some of this is social related an indoctrination by peers. It's one thing to use English as a second language but native students have no excuse. That damn 'AOL' speak is into everything now. Some teachers tolerate the use while others struggle to eradicate it. When you have acceptance of degeneration of any form of communication then you truly are dumbing down society.

Any form of curriculum that lowers the standards should suffer from their certification. That's why we have the boards to certify the institutions so as they must perform at a level of expectations. Sure even there we have faults but most schools do try to meet the standards so they can display the certification. If they don't certify and are placed on probation. Then the students, particularly the graduates would suffer. So standardization is a good thing and should be maintained.

I can understand your frustrations. I too left the university because of the stress that I bore from all those years. The stress and work hours caused a lot of health problems for me. I miss the students and activity but not the stress. That's another story that I'm not able to get into at this time.

I really think the LQ forum should expect more from their peers or fellow members. In that we should continue to assist with standards that help everyone to excel. I for one have tried to be as helpful as possible. At first I had some problems with weeding through some personalities that were difficult. I learned to look through that and place the purpose and goals ahead of that. I just want to provide a avenue for people to excel with their endeavor with GNU/Linux. Such a beautiful tool should be available to everyone. I remember my UNIX days and the costs to use it. When GNU/Linux came along I saw something that would aid people to have the power of the computer without paying $$ to the Masters. Even gifted UNIX machines came with a price.

I don't even want to get into the M$ discussion arena. The money we spent on dumbing down the computers so students could get on faster to utilize was monumental.

I should cease since this can continue into a even larger rant.
 
Old 11-21-2008, 11:56 PM   #12
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Thumbs up Reality

I've personally evaluated textbooks used for recent primary, secondary, and public University level classes. The problem is in two places. The super wealthy drive a world in which profits are inversely proportional to the intellectual capability of the middle class. This segment desires a populous that uses sight reading, makes decisions based on emotional knee jerk reactions, and follows rules.

Public schools then become 'fair', by chopping the legs off the giants, so everyone is 4 feet tall. Average and below average students gain self esteem, because they are learning it's feelings that dictate right and wrong; and if you would only believe in yourself: 2 + 2 = 5, and 5.5 is a fair approximation of infinity.

Now the populous will spend consumer dollars, without being able to calculate the personal economic disaster looming, glued to mass media, that promises Truth, but never delivers. This is one of the greatest cons of the new millennium, which actually was used also during the latter part of the 20th Century.

Mass Media content is custom designed to imitate Truth, enticing the mind toward its natural object of desire (Truth), while delivering an onslaught of triggers, to elicit buying behavior, exploiting evolutionary relics within mankind.

One version of this is The Fact Blitz used on 24/7 news networks, like CNN. The apple on the pole in front of the donkey's mouth, is the promise of that a certain subset of all possible knowledge, that will complete the viewers current pile of random and disjointed facts, into a cohesive whole; yielding Truth, and therefore security, and therefore freedom from fear, will be delivered in the next 1/2 hour.

1/2 hour seems to be the maximum time duration people are unwilling wait for All Truth, Complete Understanding, and Absolute Power.

12 years compulsory attendance, at government secular humanisitic indoctrination centers, learning drivel, the spawn of the minds of educational psychologists, who will commit any atrocity, to keep people from figuring out why psychology is so complicated: Psychology is the study of human behavior, which only takes into account the fraction of Reality know as the three dimensional reality: things that can be observed using the organic sensory channels, of the temporal physical human body; while ignoring the vast majority of The All

This severs connection with The Mind in The All, yielding a form of ignorance that seeks satiation of physical drives, and comfort for the physical body. This inevitably leads to people worshiping consumption, and taking shopping like a drug.

Students entering post secondary schools are preoccupied with the subliminal messages being sent by the soul, into the heart, that if the body dies, that person will spend eternity in a fiery pool of sulfur, burning, forever. Consumerism is driven by the subconscious knowledge: all good one will experience will be during temporal physical life.

Money becomes an end and a means for all. The value of human beings is mathematically calculated. Human parts shops stock vital organs, removed from clones, who were made specifically for organ harvest: to be killed, so others could live.

If the public were consciously aware, of what must lie in the near future, it would be easy to understand why young people are not having children, pursue wealth singlemindedly, measure human worth based on physical appearance and personal wealth, and do not plan for the future.

There is no future. The human race is morally mortgaged, to the kingdom of darkness, and has been condemned to commit genocide against itself. It is infected with Homegaciditis (pron. hoe-Mayg-Uh-sid-Eye-tiss; etym. Homo Latin: Human; Omega Greek: Last, final, end; Cide Latin: Death; Itis Latin: Disease, pathology, illness; def. Literally: Mans' final death disease. The disease causing the human race to commit genocide against itself.

Symptoms: Sodomy, homicide, feminism, suicide, use of birth control, genocide, satanism, soelancia (Usurping The Authority of a man over his wife), galrax (Using government schools to indoctrinate children with positive or neutral aspects about sodomite lifestyles), abortion, eugenics, civil divorce, pornography, freeway killings, drug addiction, atheism, practicing the occult, sodocracy (Government by and for sodomites), rape against the woman's will, commission of psychopathic violence, BDSM, adultery, jealousy, vengeance, ignorance, guilt, justification of sin, secular humanism.)

By the time Americans open their eyes, the streets will be swarming with Chinese troops, ready to rape and plunder, because the Dollar sunk to $.05, and China holds $3 Trillion Dollars in its central bank, backing its own currency. When China loses $2.85 Trillion Dollars, that will be the end of its manufacturing heyday.

China will want revenge, because China does not share the doctrine of forgiveness we have in The USA. There is no bankruptcy in international banking. The way one country collects from another is armed invasion, and plunder.

The USA has a million man military force. China has a 500 million man military force, and 10,000 fully armed nuclear warheads. No one is coming to help. The US will be alone. There isn't anyone who could help, because everything that exists can be perceived using organic sensory channels: Vision, Hearing, Smell, Taste, and Touch.

If anyone powerful enough to stop an armed force, 500 million strong, existed, people would have seen ... Him? I mean, how could Anyone that Powerful remain unknown?

So there it is: That's why people won't take the time to invest in themselves, or others. They're scared for themselves. It isn't that hard to figure out what to do. If you're a sexually mature female, give yourself to the soldiers. If you're a male, have a stash of gold coins, precious gems, valuable but easily transported fine collectibles (Old coins work). Precious metals are the best to ransom your life. Don't be stingy. You'll get shot if you're insulting. People who offer small ransom for their own lives, are telling others their lives aren't worth very much. This can be deadly.

I have Absolute Power, and Immortality. This is My Inheritance, From My Almighty Father. He Owns The Universe, and its contents. He Reveals Himself to His Children. You would know if you knew Him.

Ok kids, it's time for bed. I hope you enjoyed this heartwarming post.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 06:12 AM   #13
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Ok kids, it's time for bed. I hope you enjoyed this heartwarming post.
I certainly did. It was a laugh a line.
Can't wait for the next installment.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 06:25 AM   #14
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I certainly did. It was a laugh a line.
Can't wait for the next installment.
Aww, come on, he's written much better in the past.
 
Old 11-22-2008, 06:30 AM   #15
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I understand your concern. But as I see it, most undeserving candidates dont make it to where the really good ones get to.
 
  


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