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Old 08-22-2010, 02:14 AM   #16
John VV
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so you were tiring to install grub on a fat32 partition
i do not think that can work
 
Old 08-22-2010, 05:59 AM   #17
basheer
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Hi,
I think if u can just re-install grub, everything will be fine.
#sudo grub-install /dev/sda

This should work.
 
Old 08-22-2010, 06:01 AM   #18
basheer
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Hi, If u can just re-install grub, ithink things will work.
#sudo grub-install /dev/sda

 
Old 08-22-2010, 12:23 PM   #19
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To solve boot problems there are some important things to keep in mind.

There are five key boot sectors that can be used on a hard disk.
  • Master Boot Record MBR / Partition Table
  • First Primary Partition Boot Sector
  • Second Primary Partition Boot Sector
  • Third Primary Partition Boot Sector
  • Fourth Primary Partition Boot Sector

When you reset or power on the computer, the BIOS will always load the Master Boot Record from the first sector of the hard disk and then execute the software in the MBR.

The default software written to the MBR will find the first entry in the Partition Table that is marked as "Active" (Linux programs name this the Boot flag). The MBR software will load the Partition Boot Sector from the "Active" partition and then execute the software in that sector. The Partition Boot Sector is always the first sector of a Primary partition.

What I described so far is what Windows Setup will provide when you install Windows. That's important to know because Windows Setup will write over the MBR and restore the default software, then mark the Windows partition as "Active". Installing Windows will remove GRUB from the MBR.

When you install Linux, many distros, including Ubuntu will change the MBR software to run GRUB. That is usually what you want, but you can also use the advanced setup of the distro to install GRUB to the Linux Partition Boot Sector (more later).

In order for GRUB to boot Windows it has to read in, then execute the Partition Boot Sector software from the Windows partition. Linux distros usually add a menu entry to do that. Usually Windows is installed in the first Primary partition, and Linux is installed in some other Primary partition along with the GRUB files and menu. With other configurations the automatically created menu entry for Windows might be incorrect.

If you somehow manage to change the contents of the Partition Boot Sector for the Windows partition, then Windows can no longer boot. How you repair the Partition Boot Sector depends on the version of Windows.

Windows 98 uses a command called "SYS" to write the partition boot sector and required boot files. You should back up the hidden file "MSDOS.SYS" from the Windows 98 root directory before you use the "SYS" command. Then restore the "MSDOS.SYS" file so that Windows will boot into graphical mode. You have to tell "SYS" the drive letter for the Windows partition.

sys c:

The files required for Windows 98 booting are "IO.SYS", "MSDOS.SYS" and "COMMAND.COM". The "IO.SYS" and "MSDOS.SYS" files are usually hidden (the hidden attribute is set). In order to use the "SYS" command you must be booted to a Windows 98 (DOS mode) command prompt and have the files that I mentioned on the booted disk, along with the "SYS.COM" file.

The real work of booting Windows 98 is done by "IO.SYS" and "MSDOS.SYS" is a text configuration file (in DOS it was software). The "COMMAND.COM" file provides the command prompt, built in commands such as "DIR" and the ability to run other commands such as "XCOPY.COM". The contents of "MSDOS.SYS" tell Windows to start in graphical mode and that essentially runs the "WIN.COM" command in the WINDOWS directory to start up Windows.

Windows 98 has a way to create a boot floppy, and you can also boot from the Setup CD in order to repair the boot files and boot sector using "SYS".

The key to avoiding boot problems is to make sure that you don't accidentally install GRUB or anything else to the Partition Boot Sector of the Windows 98 partition. If you do that then you must use the "SYS" command or reinstall Windows.

You also must be careful about adding Primary partitions that appear BEFORE the Windows 98 partition. Windows 98 assigns drive letters based on the order that it finds partitions. If you add a partition that can change the Windows drive letter to something other than C: and then you will have problems. Windows does not provide a way to change the expected OS drive letter after installing Windows. Windows only assigns drive letters to partitions that it recognizes (FAT32 and FAT16) that are not hidden.

Linux booting works differently than Windows because GRUB knows how to directly load a Linux kernel file and "initrd" disk image. However, GRUB has to start up in order to load Linux. Usually GRUB is started because GRUB is installed to the MBR and runs first. However, you can install GRUB to the Linux Primary partition instead. With GRUB installed in the Linux Primary partition you must change the "Active" (Boot) flags so that the Linux partition is marked "Active" instead of the Windows partition. The default boot code in the MBR will then start GRUB using the Linux Partition Boot Sector.

Windows NT and later can support a menu entry to start GRUB if you leave the Windows partition as active (and start the Windows boot loader first). Unfortunately Windows 98 does not easily support a boot menu for starting GRUB. So you really want to start GRUB first when dual booting with Windows 98.
 
Old 08-23-2010, 05:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basheer View Post
Hi,
I think if u can just re-install grub, everything will be fine.
#sudo grub-install /dev/sda

This should work.
Thanks, it doesn't help though.
 
Old 08-23-2010, 05:20 PM   #21
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Erik FL, thanks for your detailed comments. I can only stress that Ubuntu was installed after Win98 and I did not use any advanced options when installing Ubuntu.I don't recall it tells you much beyond where the partition is. It's possible if course Windows got messed up.

I am not keen to reinstall Windows because (if I'm correct) that means reinstalling Ubuntu too. And clearly history suggests the dual boot will break again if I do.

Do you know how to get to a command prompt from the Win 98 CD? And if I can do that and run SYS, won't that still mean reinstalling Ubuntu?
 
Old 08-23-2010, 08:26 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windows22 View Post
Erik FL, thanks for your detailed comments. I can only stress that Ubuntu was installed after Win98 and I did not use any advanced options when installing Ubuntu.I don't recall it tells you much beyond where the partition is. It's possible if course Windows got messed up.

I am not keen to reinstall Windows because (if I'm correct) that means reinstalling Ubuntu too. And clearly history suggests the dual boot will break again if I do.

Do you know how to get to a command prompt from the Win 98 CD? And if I can do that and run SYS, won't that still mean reinstalling Ubuntu?
Here are the steps to boot the Windows 98 Setup CD and use SYS.
  • Put the Windows 98 Setup CD in the drive
  • Make sure that the BIOS is set to boot from the CD drive before the hard disk
  • Restart the computer
  • If you see a menu with "Boot from Hard Disk" and "Boot from CD-ROM" choose CD-ROM
  • In the Windows 98 Startup Menu choose "Start computer without CD-ROM support ."
  • You should see the A:\> prompt
  • Enter this command to set the search path.
    PATH C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND;A:\
  • Enter this command to rewrite the boot block of partition C:
    SYS C:
  • Reboot the computer

This should not cause a problem with booting Ubuntu unless you have installed GRUB and Windows both in the same Primary FAT32 partition. To put GRUB and Windows in the same (FAT32 partition) make sure that you install GRUB to the MBR (Master Boot Record) and not the Windows FAT32 partition. In other words, install GRUB to (hd0) and NOT (hd0,0).

grub>root (hd0,0)
grub>setup (hd0)

OR

grub>root (hd0,1)
grub>setup (hd0)

THE FOLLOWING IS NOT NORMAL BUT MIGHT WORK

grub>root (hd0,4)
grub>setup (hd0)

The "setup" command for GRUB determines the boot sector where GRUB is "installed". The "root" command specifies where the GRUB files are to be found. When people say that they "installed" GRUB somewhere that isn't enough information to know how they installed GRUB. The boot sector and the GRUB files can be in different places and "install" could mean either one or both. It is important to distinguish between the location of the GRUB files versus which boot sector is used to start GRUB. I don't know exactly how Ubuntu decides those two things.

Usually a boot loader should be in the same Primary partition as the boot sector starting it. Of course, installing GRUB to the MBR breaks that rule, but then the GRUB files should still be installed in a Primary partition and not some other kind.

You have the Ubuntu root (and I'm assuming also /boot) in a Logical partition. A Logical partition is located inside the Extended partition. Normally boot loaders should be only in Primary partitions. GRUB might support having its files in a Logical partition but that might not work on some systems. It would be better to install Ubuntu and GRUB both into a second Primary partition and leave the first Primary partition with Windows just for Windows. You should at least make sure that the GRUB files are in a Primary partition.

If you want to leave the Ubuntu root partition as Logical, then install the GRUB files to a "BOOT" folder in the Windows FAT32 partition and make sure to "install" GRUB to the MBR sector to preserve the Windows 98 boot sector.

Windows 98 has no "BOOT.INI" file and the Windows 98 partition boot sector can only load "IO.SYS". A Windows boot sector (any version) can only be installed to a partition boot sector and NOT the MBR. Windows Setup also assumes that the Windows bootloader(s) are located in the first Primary partition that is visible to Setup. You can move them manually after Setup but cannot select where Setup will install them.

To boot any other OS besides Windows 98, you need some other boot loader to start first (GRUB, the Windows XP NTLDR, or the Windows Vista/7 bootmgr). GRUB is the only one that can start directly from the MBR. The others can only start from a Primary partition's boot sector.

There are some reasons why you might lose the ability to boot Windows 98.
  • Something wrote over the Windows 98 Partition's Boot Sector.
  • Something deleted, renamed or moved the hidden IO.SYS file.
  • Something moved or deleted other required files such as "MSDOS.SYS", "COMMAND.COM" or "WIN.COM".
  • The default software in the MBR sector has been damaged by a virus or an incomplete installation of a new boot loader.
  • A new boot loader installed to the MBR does not chain to the Windows 98 Partition Boot Sector.
  • You installed Windows 98 to a drive larger than 127 GB that requires 48-bit LBA hardware and software support.
  • Your computer has a CPU that is too fast. There are some bugs causing Windows 98 and ME boot problems on fast computers.

Windows 98 is not designed to work on drives larger than around 127 GB and the results can be unpredictable including boot problems or corruption of data in different locations of the disk.

48-bit Logical Block Addressing is not supported by Windows until XP Service Pack 1. Disks larger than 127 GB might fail to work properly. If you use a Windows XP Setup CD it's best just to make sure that it has at least Service Pack 1, or better yet SP2.
 
Old 08-23-2010, 10:42 PM   #23
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Erik FL, Thanks for your concern. I followed your instructions to run SYS at a Win command prompt and booted back into Ubuntu (no option to boot to Win). What is the next step?

grub>root(hd0,0) always gives " syntax error near unexpected token '(' "

You said "if you want to leave the Ubuntu root partition as Logical, then install the GRUB files to a "BOOT" folder in the Windows FAT32 partition and make sure to "install" GRUB to the MBR sector to preserve the Windows 98 boot sector."

I don't care what I do as long as I don't have to keep reinstalling both OS'es and the solution is extensible to 10.10 when it comes. I note Ubuntu boots from (hd0,4). I don't know where to find any equivalent to Windows Disk Management that gives the hd codes for what exists. What would you suggest and how do I get the grub commands such as root and setup to work.


Thanks again
 
Old 08-24-2010, 01:11 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windows22 View Post
Erik FL, Thanks for your concern. I followed your instructions to run SYS at a Win command prompt and booted back into Ubuntu (no option to boot to Win). What is the next step?

grub>root(hd0,0) always gives " syntax error near unexpected token '(' "

You said "if you want to leave the Ubuntu root partition as Logical, then install the GRUB files to a "BOOT" folder in the Windows FAT32 partition and make sure to "install" GRUB to the MBR sector to preserve the Windows 98 boot sector."

I don't care what I do as long as I don't have to keep reinstalling both OS'es and the solution is extensible to 10.10 when it comes. I note Ubuntu boots from (hd0,4). I don't know where to find any equivalent to Windows Disk Management that gives the hd codes for what exists. What would you suggest and how do I get the grub commands such as root and setup to work.


Thanks again
If you can boot Ubuntu then you should only need to add a menu entry for Windows to "/boot/grub/menu.lst".

In "menu.lst" you will need an entry like this.

Code:
title Windows
rootnoverify (hd0,0)
chainloader +1
Note that there is a space between "rootnoverify" and "(hd0,0)". There is also a space between "chainloader and "+1". Usually you can also press the "c" key during the GRUB boot menu and then type in the last two commands if you don't yet have a menu entry.

Apparently GRUB does work with its files installed to (hd0,4) so you don't need to change that. If you reinstall GRUB, there is a space after the "root" command before the hard disk or partition in parentheses. There is also a space after the "setup" command.

To install GRUB again to (hd0,4) you would use these commands at a GRUB prompt.

Code:
root (hd0,4)
setup (hd0)
The "(hd0)" without a partition number says to install the boot code to the MBR. You have to do that if the GRUB files are in a Logical partition.

You should not need to do this, but you can copy the "/boot/grub" files to the Windows partition using Ubuntu. You have to copy them with Ubuntu since Windows 98 can't read from a Linux partition. After copying the files to the Windows partition then you can press "c" during the GRUB boot menu and enter these commands.

Code:
root (hd0,0)
setup (hd0)
You still must install GRUB to the MBR. You can't install GRUB to the Windows partition's boot sector because you want to leave that having the Windows boot software. So, DO NOT use "setup (hd0,0)". That would overwrite the Windows boot sector with GRUB's software.

If you do have to reinstall or install Linux, tell the installer that you want the advanced mode, and tell it to NOT install GRUB. I think that might be what is writing over your Windows boot sector. You can always manually install GRUB or edit "menu.lst" after installing the Linux files.

You may also want to look at this information in the GRUB documentation. I found it quite helpful.

Creating a GRUB boot floppy / Installing GRUB natively

Ubuntu may now be using GRUB 2 and you should be aware of a partition numbering difference with GRUB 2. GRUB 2 starts numbering partitions with 1 instead of 0, so if you try to use things like "(hd0,0)" you will get an error. GRUB 2 uses (hd0,1) for the first primary partition on the first hard disk. GRUB 2 also creates "menu.lst" automatically so editing that is not a good idea. The next time any configuration change is made to GRUB 2 it will write over your edited "menu.lst" with a new copy. If you have a "grub.cfg" file then you probably have GRUB 2. GRUB 2 is rather complicated and I don't know much about it at the moment.
 
Old 08-25-2010, 05:32 PM   #25
windows22
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Erik,

menu.lst now has


# This entry automatically added by the Debian installer for a non-linux OS
# on /dev/sda1
title Windows 95/98/Me
rootnoverify (hd0,0)
chainloader +1

At a GRUB prompt I get

grub> root (hd0,4)
Error 21: Selected disk does not exist

In fact no disk exists whatever (hd) I enter.

Where in Windows would you suggest I copy the /boot/grub files?


Thanks
 
Old 08-25-2010, 08:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windows22 View Post
Erik,

menu.lst now has


# This entry automatically added by the Debian installer for a non-linux OS
# on /dev/sda1
title Windows 95/98/Me
rootnoverify (hd0,0)
chainloader +1

At a GRUB prompt I get

grub> root (hd0,4)
Error 21: Selected disk does not exist

In fact no disk exists whatever (hd) I enter.

Where in Windows would you suggest I copy the /boot/grub files?


Thanks
When you get this error are you seeing the grub prompt when you boot, or are you starting grub from Linux and then getting an error when you type in "root (hd0,4)"?

If you see the "grub>" prompt during booting then "GRUB" is installed properly but not able to access the correct disk for loading Linux through the BIOS. That could be due to using a RAID controller or a disk larger than the BIOS will support.

If you get this error trying to run and install GRUB from Linux then I recommend installing GRUB from a GRUB "native" boot floppy or CD rather than Linux.

You can usually find out where GRUB thinks your Linux files are located by asking GRUB to search for the boot image. At a GRUB prompt type this.

find /boot/vmlinuz


If the file is not found then GRUB can't find the disk, or perhaps the "vmlinuz" link has not been created to reference the correct version of Linux. The "vmlinuz" image can either be an actual file, or more often a soft link that just points to the correct file.

Since you're using FAT32 for Windows, GRUB should also be able to find your Windows files.

find /io.sys
find /msdos.sys
find /command.com


When you search for the files, GRUB displays the device where it saw the files, such as "(hd0,0)" or "(hd0,4)".

If you put GRUB in the first Primary partition with Windows then I recommend that you create a directory called "boot" with a sub-directory called "grub". When you install GRUB make sure that you use these commands.

root (hd0,0)
setup (hd0)


The "root" command will actually check that GRUB can recognize the filesystem (FAT32). Using "rootnoverify" tells GRUB to assume that it can't read files from the partition. For NTFS you must use "rootnoverify".

When you're having problems with GRUB, using a GRUB boot floppy or boot CD is a good idea since you eliminate the problem of GRUB having to figure out the BIOS drive IDs based on the Linux disk device names. The "find" command from a GRUB boot disk will tell you exactly what device names will work in GRUB since the boot disk calls the BIOS directly. For example, I have an Intel RAID configuration and GRUB can never find the correct BIOS ID's when installed from Linux. I have to boot from a floppy to install GRUB.

Also, it's important that you know which version of GRUB you are using. GRUB versions higher than 0.9 probably have different commands and are versions of GRUB 2. You also have to have a patched version of GRUB 0.9 in order to boot from an "ext4" filesystem used by newer distros.
 
Old 08-25-2010, 08:52 PM   #27
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What I would also suggest when booting Ubuntu and Windows: Make sure the Windows partition exists BEFORE the Linux partition; if you install Linux on partition 1 and Windows on partition 2, for instance, Windows won't be recognized. This being because GRUB only looks for other operating systems on the partitions before it.
 
Old 08-30-2010, 06:44 AM   #28
windows22
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Hi Erik

The errors are running grub from a grub> prompt. All the commands you suggest are unrecognised or file not found.

I have no idea where to get a GRUB CD - can you suggest that? Synaptic says GRUB is 0.97-29ubuntu60.

Can I boot into Windows 98 using the Win 98 CD in any way, assuming it recognises Win 98?

None of this seems to explain why the grub menu.cfg has gone missing or why it all worked for a while. Is replacing that cfg an option?



Thanks
 
Old 08-30-2010, 09:45 AM   #29
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I think your problem revolves around the fact that your kernel entries in the menu.lst file are all for Ubuntu 10.04 which uses Grub2 by default and has no menu.lst file. As you have indicated above, you have no grub.cfg file under /boot/grub which is the file that replaces the menu.lst file used in Grub Legacy. Since you updated to Ubuntu 10.04, you should have a /boot/grub/grub.cfg file. I don't know what happened there. If you can get this situation resolved, I would not expect any problems booting W98 with correct entry. I am not an Ubuntu user and have not used Grub2 but there is a link to a detailed tutorial on using Grub2 below that might be worth reading. It has a sample grub.cfg file and a section to Reinstall Grub among numerous other things. Hope it helps!
 
Old 08-30-2010, 12:06 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yancek View Post
I think your problem revolves around the fact that your kernel entries in the menu.lst file are all for Ubuntu 10.04 which uses Grub2 by default and has no menu.lst file. As you have indicated above, you have no grub.cfg file under /boot/grub which is the file that replaces the menu.lst file used in Grub Legacy. Since you updated to Ubuntu 10.04, you should have a /boot/grub/grub.cfg file. I don't know what happened there. If you can get this situation resolved, I would not expect any problems booting W98 with correct entry. I am not an Ubuntu user and have not used Grub2 but there is a link to a detailed tutorial on using Grub2 below that might be worth reading. It has a sample grub.cfg file and a section to Reinstall Grub among numerous other things. Hope it helps!
Yancek is probably right, and you actually have GRUB 2 that uses completely different commands than I suggested. If you plan to use Ubuntu you are better off to learn about Grub 2 and then create the correct configuration file.

However, if you want a Grub v0.97 boot disc, here is a link to one that I created from Slackware.

Grub Boot CD ISO file

Right click on the file and save it to your computer. Then use a CD burning program to burn the ISO image file to a blank disc. Make sure that you use "Burn Image" or something similar in your CD writing software. If you see an ISO file on the CD after creating that then it isn't correct.

You will need to copy the files from the CD's "install/boot/grub" folder onto your hard disk. Then boot the CD and use the grub prompt by pressing the "c" key during the GRUB menu. Use the "root" and "setup" commands to install GRUB. You can put the files in either the Windows 98 partition or the Ubuntu partition. Just make sure that you use the correct device name for the "root" command. The default "menu.lst" that I provided only does chain booting, but you can edit that to add a Linux entry for Ubuntu. You should be able to chain boot the Windows 98 partition. At the grub command prompt you can also type in commands to boot Linux.
 
  


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