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Old 03-04-2005, 09:47 AM   #1
Rick069
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Linux Maintainance


How is linux as far as files accumulating when uninstalling applications, internet files etc.. Do I need special software to "houseclean" and free my OS of files that are unessesary?
 
Old 03-04-2005, 10:00 AM   #2
bigjohn
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Id imagine that it would depend on which distro you're using. Linux distro file structures are usually pretty logical, inasfaras app's etc, don't usually use "the scatter gun approach" to writing files to the hard drive!

A good example is with the gentoo that I use, if I know what I want to uninstall, I just open a terminal window and do "emerge unmerge xxxxxxxxx", gentoo's package manager (called portage) will find the named package and remove that, but also check any dependency issues and see if any of "them" are used by other app's, if not it bins them as well, but if they are shared, then it leaves them alone.

I believe that debians "apt-get", mandrakes "URPMI", "YUM" (yellow dog and possibly fedora) also work pretty much like that (probably most of "them", though I couldn't say really as I've only ever used gentoo, debian and mandrake).

Thats AFAIK of course!

regards

John
 
Old 03-04-2005, 12:34 PM   #3
slakmagik
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Re: Linux Maintainance

Quote:
Originally posted by Rick069
How is linux as far as files accumulating when uninstalling applications, internet files etc.. Do I need special software to "houseclean" and free my OS of files that are unessesary?
I agree with bigjohn - depends on the distro. As far as dribbles of files, while it's possible that your package manager or the 'make uninstall' target don't perform properly, every app removal should be clean. But it depends on what you define as the app and, again, your method of uninstall. For instance, you may install app foo which requires lib bar. When you remove foo, you have no need for bar (unless you've compiled app baz later that *also* uses bar) but removing foo will only remove foo unless your package manager tracks dependencies and orphans and crap like that. But if you explicitly remove bar, that should do it. The only things that are really supposed to be variable are /var, obviously, and /tmp. You should clean /tmp at every boot through your init scripts (though you don't have to) and can generally clean most of /var the same way, as far as /var/run and whatnot, though PIDs are generally expired automatically. But, no, there's no big demand for the huge number of third party apps that try to compensate for the ineffectiveness of Windows.

Then again, when it comes to the crap the desktops generate, apart from just installing and uninstalling, I don't know. Linux, itself, is pretty clean.
 
Old 03-04-2005, 02:11 PM   #4
Rick069
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I plan on installing Xandros. I'm concerned about third party apps that I may install using codeweaver or apps made for linux. I'm not really concerened with the open source apps that already came with Xandros since I get a choice of what I what to install during the setup of the particular distro I've got. From what I understand linux dosn't have a registry and I won't have to compress a registry since linux doesn't have one. Am I right?
 
Old 03-04-2005, 07:07 PM   #5
slakmagik
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick069
I plan on installing Xandros. I'm concerned about third party apps that I may install using codeweaver or apps made for linux. I'm not really concerened with the open source apps that already came with Xandros since I get a choice of what I what to install during the setup of the particular distro I've got. From what I understand linux dosn't have a registry and I won't have to compress a registry since linux doesn't have one. Am I right?
I'm going to bow out - I don't know anything about Xandros or Codeweaver. But you're saying that what you're worried about is how closed source proprietary apps will mix with Linux? That may be more of an issue but I'd figure those directories would be segregated from the true Linux system. In other words, you should just be able to blow out /opt/proprietary or the like. Just guessing there. But, no, Linux definitely has no registry despite some misguided efforts to give it one. Most everything's in distinct text files in /etc. Anyway - like I say, maybe someone more familiar with these details can help.
 
Old 03-04-2005, 09:46 PM   #6
Frank616
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Rick:

No, Linux does not have a registry. You will find that keeping Linux clean is not as difficult as in Windows in part because there is no registry.

Now, as to using CrossOver Office, why do you want to load a whole lot of Windows programs on a Linux box? In most cases, there are perfectly capable Linux-native replacements for Windows programs. What are you planning on loading?

Be aware as well that CrossOver Office does not support a wide range of Windows applications.

In my experience, CrossOver Office is not a great solution. Too many things don't work properly. No disrespect to the authors. It is just plain tough to make it work. However, CrossOver appears to load the applications is separate directories, and you can unload them cleanly, as far as I can tell. If all else fails, you can just delete the directory that the app is in, and its gone. No registry, remember.

Win4Lin 5.x with Windows 98 SE is far more capable, in my opinion, for running legacy Windows applications. You will need a genuine licensed copy of Windows 98, however. Win4Lin also installs all Windows apps (and indeed, Windows itself) in a separate directory in the Linux filesystem. There are issues here in keeping Windows itself clean, but there are simple ways around this. Let me know if you need to know more about this. I have not found it to be an issue, however, as I am using mostly Linux apps. My Win98 install in Win4Lin has been pretty 'static' for a long time now. In any case, what is loaded on Win98 on Win4Lin has no effect on the Linux install itself. Linux sees Win98 as just one more app, and the whole works can be cleaned out of your Linux install without affecting the Linux install itself.

Now, as to installing additional Linux-native apps on Xandros, this is a breeze. Xandros provides access to their software repository through Xandros Networks. This is NOT A PAID SUBSCRIPTION like Linspire is, so there are no additional charges once you buy the distro. Xandros Networks is a front-end for apt-get, which is a very capable package manager for Debian-based distros (RPM is the equivalent for the Red Hat type distros). Of the two, I like apt-get much better.

Xandros Networks keeps track of what is on your machine, and what you load. If you want to remove it afterward, it is removed cleanly. No 'junk files' left over afterward to my knowledge. Xandros Networks / apt-get work in many ways like CleanSweep for Windows. They keep track of the install so that they can totally uninstall afterward.

Xandros Networks will also add and remove packages from other sites, including the Debian site. Anything that Debian has available, Xandros Networks will install or uninstall in exactly the same way. XN will do the same from a CD.

Hope this helps. Let me know.

Frank.
 
Old 03-05-2005, 08:28 AM   #7
bigjohn
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Well I'm gonna disagree with frank616, because I've got crossover office 3.01 installed, but in truth I only have that so I can have office 2k pro and "jellyfish backgammon" installed.

The office 2k pro, is basically to keep "er indoors" quiet, she's a teacher and they only have M$ at school (yes I've started to show her that OOo.org will also do everything she'd need, but she's also a bit of a technophobe so it's nice and slow, plus the jellyfish backgammon cost me 25 about 3 years ago, so I want to get my money's worth out of it ).

You should look at the codeweavers site, because If my memory serves me correctly, their recommended method of install is in the /home directory or partition (whichever you actually use, I have /home partition). So it wouldn't actually matter about missing dependencies, orphans etc etc.

If you made sure that when you set things up, you make it so you have seperate /root and /home, whatever you end up having distro wise, will mostly be installed in the /root, so that if you decide to have a play and change you just install the new distro to the /root and then you just have to make sure about having the /home showing in the /etc/fstab so it can mount automatically. It then shouldn't matter about the stuff above i.e. the windows app's.

Also frank616, it's fair to say that if the windows app will install under crossover and it is indeed a better app, then why the hell not? A point in fact example is Dreamweaver, sure there's stuff that's getting better under linux, but it's still not a patch on dreamweaver and if you've spend hundreds of 's or $'s on it then another 30/55$ (or however much it is) for the latest Xover office/plugin isn't gonna break the bank and allows familarity/productivity to continue while you learn maybe Nvu, or Quanta, or whatever (hell even bloody emacs if you're a web design sadist ).

regards

John
 
Old 03-05-2005, 08:32 AM   #8
Komakino
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigjohn
... (hell even bloody emacs if you're a web design sadist ).
Why's that sadistic?! I did my whole site in Vim There's nothing like being hands on. Besides, I did most of it in perl for easy addition of new pages.
 
Old 03-05-2005, 11:48 AM   #9
KimVette
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frank616
Rick:

No, Linux does not have a registry. You will find that keeping Linux clean is not as difficult as in Windows in part because there is no registry.
Actually, the registry was designed partly to help KEEP Windows installations clean. There are Microsoft Windows Logo certification guidelines for installer implementation and design, and mechanisms are in place to avoid/eliminate "DLL Hell" and litter left behind both during an install and after an uninstall. Unfortunately, either most developers don't know how to use these mechanisms, how to follow the guidelines, or project management WON'T allocate the time for proper installer architecture and design (I ran into this in my career as a release engineer) or simply don't give a rat's behind about users' machines because hey; they sell the software with no warranty express or implied, so why should they care? It's sickening but it's reality.

The registry is not to blame for that. It is the developers of the various programs you installed.
 
Old 03-05-2005, 07:02 PM   #10
Frank616
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BigJohn:

>Also frank616, it's fair to say that if the windows app will install under crossover and it is indeed a better app, then why the hell not?<

I was not suggesting that Windows apps be abandoned. I feel that there are better ways of running most of them on Linux, however. CrossOver works well with MS Office, and a few select others. Other than that, it is a kludge. No offense intended. What they are trying to do is very difficult. However, Open Office and Star Office (if you need the support) work as well or better. Why waste time on legacy software?

I speak from painful experience. I'm a WordPerfect user. WordPerfect won't run at all on CrossOver Office. It runs fine on Win4Lin. There is also an older linux-native WordPerfect 8 that has been sporadically available. I have five copies of that as well. However, I'm making myself learn Open Office. The switch is painful, but I think it is going to be worth it in the long run.

So, why not begin moving to Linux native apps as soon as possible? You can run Windows apps on Windows if that is what you want to use.

Frank.

Last edited by Frank616; 03-05-2005 at 07:05 PM.
 
Old 03-08-2005, 03:45 PM   #11
bigjohn
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@ Frank616,

Sorry if I sounded like I was "having a go back at you", that was in no way intended.

My point is, and has been for a while now, that if you're used to how an app works and it can be made to run under linux, relatively cheaply, then why not stick with it, at least until you're ready to try something native?

Let's face it, you sound as if you have a fair bit of knowledge already, I don't have any real IT background and feel that it's very important to give those who are new to the linux world the best possible "initial linux experience", otherwise you will get a large number of those who don't "get it" straight away, ending up with the unhelpful "linux is crap" attitude.

Which I feel does the community no favours whatsoever.

I think that I'm only still here because of my stubborn attitude and my dislike of the ubiquitous M$ business practices (I have nothing against there products per se, some of them are very good, some not so).

I'm not a natural car mechanic, so when something goes wrong I spend many a stressful hour shouting at my monitor, phrases like "F**, f***, f***, what am I missing?" "Why can't these b******* write these f****** docs in plain english?" and always end up answering my own questions.

Like, one of my soap box subjects being poor documentation. Though I also know that those with the ability to "develop" are often on a higher level technically, and as such will have forgotten more than I'm ever likely to know about linux. They also can't see just how much prior knowledge people need to have to be able to benefit fully from their efforts.

I often think that the TLDP should start a new side shoot to the project, maybe call it TLDP usability. Afterall, everyone would benefit, because I have to presume that it's easier for someone to run plain english through a translator app, than it is for "technical english".

regards

John.

p.s. Oh and kludge it maybe, but Xover office is cheaper than win4lin, and I suspect considerably easier to install/manage (ha, even I couldn't go wrong with Xover, I've never wanted to even try win4lin I'd probably make a "pigs ear" of it!)
 
Old 03-08-2005, 04:03 PM   #12
JaseP
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As for Codeweavers or any other wine flavor,... they create their own fake windoze drives, usually in the user account of the person installing the app, so,... your sig other can have her Office, while you keep yours as OpenOffice.

I use seperate user accounts to manage my wine implementations (some things run better on newer ones, some on older ones). Codeweavers or any other wine will create a fake registry, but its easier to edit than the real thing.
 
Old 03-08-2005, 05:29 PM   #13
Frank616
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BigJohn:

>Sorry if I sounded like I was "having a go back at you", that was in no way intended.<

Never even crossed my mind! Absolutely no offense taken, or even suspected.

>My point is, and has been for a while now, that if you're used to how an app works and it can be made to run under linux, relatively cheaply, then why not stick with it, at least until you're ready to try something native?<

I understand. I stayed with WordPerfect for a long time before giving up and going to Open Office. I ran WordPerfect on Win4Lin (which, by the way is available now in a home edition for $30) for a long time before 'biting the bullet.'

>Let's face it, you sound as if you have a fair bit of knowledge already, <

Not really, but thanks for the compliment. I've been using Linux pretty much full-time for a little over a year, and I started with it just over three years ago. I'm still learning, and I have no technical backgroud either.

>I don't have any real IT background and feel that it's very important to give those who are new to the linux world the best possible "initial linux experience", otherwise you will get a large number of those who don't "get it" straight away, ending up with the unhelpful "linux is crap" attitude.<

Good point. I wasn't intending to take away from that. Just hoping to open a person's horizons a bit. I just wonder sometimes if sticking with the old app and forcing to work on a non-native OS isn't more work than just moving to a native app up front, that's all.

>I think that I'm only still here because of my stubborn attitude and my dislike of the ubiquitous M$ business practices (I have nothing against there products per se, some of them are very good, some not so).<

Then it looks like I have found a 'kindred spirit.' You express my feelings precisely.

Thanks for the follow-up, John. I hope to be frequenting this forum a little more as time goes on. I've heard well of it, and I'd like to check it out.

Frank.
 
Old 03-09-2005, 02:47 PM   #14
bigjohn
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Tell you what Frank,

You can see from the date when I registered, well it wasn't much after I made the fatal error of putting a Suse disc in my system, just to see what would happen. Ha, Linux was what happened.

It would appear that I just found LQ before you did

Sure I've got info from other places, but LQs' been pretty much my main source of advice/assistance/ideas and suggestions!

Mandrakeusers is good for specifically mandy questions and I also spend a lot of time these days digging around the gentoo forums (having also previously made visits to the knoppix forums as well).

I'm still not convinced that I'll ever really "get linux", but this community thing, well like it's a big "WOW", that's definitely in favour.

shit, I'll have to be careful, I'll be offering to help old ladies across the road, whether they want to cross or not!

regards

John
 
  


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