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Old 01-05-2014, 04:16 PM   #31
andy78
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You will survive without the command line, but it does not hurt to know a few command lines.
Some basics can really be handy.

like installing a binary (.deb) or run the software update manually if you run in to some problems.
 
Old 01-05-2014, 04:59 PM   #32
kareempharmacist
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Let's talk practically .almost every book about Linux forces the user to be a "System Administrator" Sys Admin.Why?!! Can we use Linux without the command line in our every day life?.I guess No .I am not a beginner nor a geek I use Linux specially when I want to do something and want it to be virus-free like copying from a usb stick or to it.
Good news that Linux Mint and Steam paved the way to the normal user.So I suggest advocating Mint for every beginner.Steam support for Linux will motivate companies and game makers to target Linux as a potential market.

Last edited by kareempharmacist; 01-05-2014 at 05:00 PM.
 
Old 01-05-2014, 05:38 PM   #33
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kareempharmacist View Post
Let's talk practically .almost every book about Linux forces the user to be a "System Administrator" Sys Admin.
No, they don't, anymore than Windows books 'force' the user to be administrator. You can USE your system as a 'regular' user...but can't CHANGE it.
Quote:
Why?!!
For the simple reason that making changes to your system requires administrator rights, no matter WHAT OS is used. Want to do things in Windows? Then you need admin rights...same with Linux.
Quote:
Can we use Linux without the command line in our every day life?.I guess No .
Wrong, sorry. You no more need the command-line in Linux than you do in Windows or Mac. It is handy, and for experienced users MUCH quicker most of the time, but you don't NEED it.
Quote:
I am not a beginner nor a geek I use Linux specially when I want to do something and want it to be virus-free like copying from a usb stick or to it.
If you're not a beginner, then you know the things you've said here are wrong. If you have a file with a virus on it, and copy it to a USB stick in Linux...the virus will still be there...it just won't affect your Linux machine. But it WILL affect your Windows machines, so what does that accomplish?
Quote:
Good news that Linux Mint and Steam paved the way to the normal user.So I suggest advocating Mint for every beginner.Steam support for Linux will motivate companies and game makers to target Linux as a potential market.
Mint is only ONE distribution geared towards 'beginners'...and Steam won't motivate any company, unless people use it...and most games are NOT on Steam...just some.
 
Old 01-05-2014, 06:52 PM   #34
andy78
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You mean you must be a system administrator to copy files from your disk to a usb stick, why?

You don't need to be a system administrator to use linux for ever day use but at first time you might as with all new systems need to dedicate som time to get used to it, it could be as little as 5 minuter or as much as a week, or more depending on impression and experience.

Im saying the same thing to the people who converterd over to mac and 6 months later they belive its a gift from god "did you really get the feeling of it and new where every options was without trying it out for a while"

If you can click on menues, icons and files in windows then you can do so in linux no matter of linux distribution.
If you can't accept that the applications have different names regarding webbrowser, filemanager, menues, software center, then windows.
Then you will never be able to change to a different operating system and you should stick what with what you are running today.
 
Old 01-05-2014, 07:28 PM   #35
astrogeek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy78 View Post
You mean you must be a system administrator to copy files from your disk to a usb stick, why?
I have quoted andy78 here for illustration, but my comment is not really directed at him.

My comment: I think we all blur the meaning and usefulness of *nix privileges somewhat when we use terms like "system administrator" and "admin user" to cover every case of different or elevated privileges, and allow that use by others to go uncorrected or un-noted.

It creates a subtle confusion among new users coming from other OSs where "Administrator" does not actually correspond directly to any particular *nix previlege, and in particular is not the same as the root user.

For the quoted example, copying files to a USB stick does NOT require that you be a "system administrator" on a Unix or GNU/Linux system, it simply requires that the user or process doing the copying have the necessary permissions to perform that operation on that device whatever they may be - a very different thing altogether!

If I configure a particular USB mount to ONLY allow writing by daffyduck, then writing to it does not require that I be "admin", or root, or some other user - it requires that I be daffyduck when I try to write to it. Additionally, by definition, the root user may always write to it.

The *nix permission paradigm is vastly more flexible and fine grained than "system administrator" and we obscure that fact, and its intended usefulness when we use those terms. We would do much better to try to educate new users to the proper use of that permission scheme than to allow them to assume that they know what a "system administrator" is from some other, mostly irrelevant context.

Last edited by astrogeek; 01-05-2014 at 07:52 PM.
 
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:26 PM   #36
haertig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kareempharmacist View Post
Can we use Linux without the command line in our every day life?.I guess No .
Don't be so sure about that. Are you able to use the the DVR hooked up to your TV? I think just about all of those things run Linux. And none of them force you to use a command line to the best of my knowledge. Are you able to use the 99% of the websites in the world that run on Linux? No command line there either.

If you want all-GUI in Linux, you can have all-GUI. Most experienced users don't want that though. And since experienced users are typically the ones who choose Linux...
 
Old 01-06-2014, 02:14 AM   #37
Randicus Draco Albus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kareempharmacist View Post
Good news that Linux Mint and Steam paved the way to the normal user.
Steam has nothing to do with using any operating system.
Quote:
So I suggest advocating Mint for every beginner.
Some would agree with you and some of us would not.
1 - Mint is not the only distribution that targets Windows users.
2 - Some people would not recommend Mint, Ubuntu and a few others on philosophical grounds. Namely, their lack of commitment to the free software movement. Include any proprietary shitware that makes life easier and train the resulting converts to believe an open source system is Windows or Mac without a price tag.
 
Old 01-06-2014, 06:43 AM   #38
turboscrew
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I tend to agree that Linux is for geeks - not still, but again.
But I think because of sloppy backward compatibility.

Someone has installed some SW last year and written instructions of how to do it.
When you try to do it following the instructions, it doesn't work:
packages have changed - in different pace, and there is no "this month"-instructions,
and the latest packages are no more compatible.

That seems to be the trend of all open source stuff.

I can't use my smart card reader (arc38, non CCID) anymore, because the PCSC interface has changed and there is no driver for the new interface, and I had problems with my printer driver due to libcupsys2 => libcups2.

Last edited by turboscrew; 01-06-2014 at 07:15 AM.
 
Old 01-06-2014, 09:57 AM   #39
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrogeek View Post
I have quoted andy78 here for illustration, but my comment is not really directed at him.

My comment: I think we all blur the meaning and usefulness of *nix privileges somewhat when we use terms like "system administrator" and "admin user" to cover every case of different or elevated privileges, and allow that use by others to go uncorrected or un-noted.

It creates a subtle confusion among new users coming from other OSs where "Administrator" does not actually correspond directly to any particular *nix previlege, and in particular is not the same as the root user.

For the quoted example, copying files to a USB stick does NOT require that you be a "system administrator" on a Unix or GNU/Linux system, it simply requires that the user or process doing the copying have the necessary permissions to perform that operation on that device whatever they may be - a very different thing altogether!

If I configure a particular USB mount to ONLY allow writing by daffyduck, then writing to it does not require that I be "admin", or root, or some other user - it requires that I be daffyduck when I try to write to it. Additionally, by definition, the root user may always write to it.

The *nix permission paradigm is vastly more flexible and fine grained than "system administrator" and we obscure that fact, and its intended usefulness when we use those terms. We would do much better to try to educate new users to the proper use of that permission scheme than to allow them to assume that they know what a "system administrator" is from some other, mostly irrelevant context.
Absolutely outstanding points, and ones I had not considered, having been Microsoft-free for at least the past decade.
 
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:06 AM   #40
jefro
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There might be some truth to the statement. Linux may still be for geeks. Unfortunately the reality of it is that to live in the modern world and use technology you have to be a geek. From programming your cars radio to the thermostat to any tv to the garage door opener and the list goes on.

I am getting older and it gets irritating when I have to go online to look up how to re-program every stupid thing in my home.

Sure, there are billions who live without such issues since they can't afford food even. If you buy almost any product in a modern country, expect that you'll need to put your geek on to operate it.
 
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:30 AM   #41
rubyyarn
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Experience?

I do not consider myself an experienced user. I got pretty good with DOS back in the dark ages, then everything switched to Windows 3.0. The first rule was Don't Touch The Registry. So for me it was point, click, and pray. If something went wrong it was a job for the repairman. There was a TV show at the time that talked about Linux and how it wasn't necessary to be stuck with Windows. I think Red Hat was the flavor then. It sounded like a good idea, but somehow I never made the jump.

I like the Mint GUI because I can do computer stuff right away. I also like the easy access to the Terminal. It gives me the hope I can go back to fixing problems myself once I learn the command line. Windows gives no such option.

I don't know about the open source problems. I do like free, but I also have no plans to mess with software that already works. Creating code from scratch I shall leave to the experts
 
Old 01-06-2014, 01:22 PM   #42
turboscrew
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"I don't know about the open source problems."
That problem comes from integrating independent pieces to make a whole.
If your printer doesn't work, is it CUPS? Driver? Foomatic? Gutenprint?
Where do you ask? Nobody is "responsible" of the whole.
Also all those pieces live their own life. It's nobody's fault if new versions are incompatible.

The computers are going the same way.
You buy a computer and it doesn't work. You contact the shop, and they tell you to
contact the manufacturer, who points you to the motherboard manufacturer, who...

Then there are stuff like flashplayer. In every second version the stuff goes into different directory and you get to figure out the links to make it work.

I had to upgrade the HW, because I wanted chromium. My old system didnm't support SSE2, and the new "standard" was to compile the stuff for pocessors that do. I didn't have enough time nor diskspace to compile it myself - the webkit was too big. So, no can do.

jefro, how old? I'm almost 51.
 
Old 01-06-2014, 01:29 PM   #43
andy78
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One thing to remember if you wan't to support linux and se more development, contribute by giving a dollar or two, when you buy a printer buy one with native linux support there are a lot of them from cannon , brother etc.
no point buying a lexmark and mess around and request for driver when the manufacturar aint interested of providing one from start.
 
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:17 PM   #44
kareempharmacist
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
If you're not a beginner, then you know the things you've said here are wrong. If you have a file with a virus on it, and copy it to a USB stick in Linux...the virus will still be there...it just won't affect your Linux machine. But it WILL affect your Windows machines, so what does that accomplish?
Not just that ,the autorun.ini file and all hidden file will appear on linux which enables me to Devirus/Deconataminate/Remove the virus from the usb stick.Otherwise I will not be able to remove the virus From Windows.
My point of view is: Why do I need more time and knowledge to accomplish tasks on Linux while I need less time and knowledge to accomplish the same tasks on Windows? it is not my problem alone.
I began with linux as a system administrator. My first and only course in linux was directed towards system administrators and i didn't know that.It was my first contact with Linux.The instructor told me to forget about the mouse at all.first it was a problem but now it is not. but what about my brother,my mother and my father. Can they use any distribution other than Mint. Will they understand what a package manager is. You can use windows xp for years without typing a command ..can you do that in Linux ?!!!!
I am not against Linux .. I love it but my love is not enough. Linux should be loved and "tolerated" by most home users to survive but Linux is facing a mafia of large software companies known for producing graphic software and office suits (I don't want to mention names because this is against the forum rules..but I think you know whom I mean..)
Finally consider installing nvidia graphics driver on windows and Linux to see the difference.Consider extracting a .tar.gz file ..on Windows you do't have to type anything . On Linux you have to Memorize some some command or you will not be able to use the file .
Intensifying the use of GUIs and frontends will make Linux more popular and easier.
the large number of distribution FRUSTRATE the users and programmers alike because not every piece of software will be compatible with all or at least most distributions.
As a pharmacist loving linux I am fighting for pharmacy management software on Linux. just type "linux Pharmacy" on google the second result will be my post on crunchbang forum about Linux and pharmacy.I am loyal to Linux but as I have said before: My own love is not enough..More users' love may be enough...
 
Old 01-06-2014, 08:20 PM   #45
TobiSGD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kareempharmacist View Post
Finally consider installing nvidia graphics driver on windows and Linux to see the difference.
Windows: Go to the Nvidia site, download the driver, install it, restart the system (not necessary on newer Windows versions).
Linux: Open the Additional Drivers program, activate the driver, restart the system.

Quote:
Consider extracting a .tar.gz file ..on Windows you do't have to type anything . On Linux you have to Memorize some some command or you will not be able to use the file .
Windows: Double-click on it, Windows will complain that it doesn't understand the format, you have to download an archiving application, install it, then you can extract the archive.
Linux: Double click on it, extract the files. You do not need the command line to extract an archive, though I can do it significantly faster using one.
Quote:
Intensifying the use of GUIs and frontends will make Linux more popular and easier.
Indeed. But nowadays for the ease-of-use distros it is not necessary anymore to use the CLI, so we are already at the point where it is like in Windows. What really is needed to make Linux more popular: hardware vendors that deliver it pre-installed.
Quote:
the large number of distribution FRUSTRATE the users and programmers alike because not every piece of software will be compatible with all or at least most distributions.
Usually it is the task of the distribution mainatiners to package an application, but almost any project aimed at consumers nowadays offers Ubuntu packages (usually projects aimed at professionals use RPM instead), this is pretty much a standard, if one likes that or not.


By the way, it is not against the forum rules to mention Adobe and Microsoft and their lack of Linux support.
 
  


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