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Old 08-20-2006, 12:13 AM   #16
Emerson
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You probably can install it on every partition if you want to. It just will be ignored. Not to Windows system partition though.
 
Old 08-20-2006, 12:34 AM   #17
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So what, if any,

So what, if any, difference would it make if I write: hda instead of hda1

?

I already have grub on MBR. Should I install again to hda or hda1?

I know the MEPIS 3.43 CD lets you pick MBR or a hdd....but I will have to check to see if it lets you actually specify a partition on the hdd.

I'm gonna look at the jumpers too....maybe there is a "single" setting...and it would be easier to just do that and completely remove the 2nd hdd. LOL.
 
Old 08-20-2006, 02:13 PM   #18
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Nothing...

Nothing...not a god-#@%! thing is working

I installed GRUB on HDA1 (MEPIS 3.43 lets you select MBR or HDA1, since I already had grub on MBR I selected HDA1) and nothing worked differently.

Someone mentioned "cable select" earlier. I have no idea what that is. Unfortunately, the "Master / Slave" sticker guide on the HDD in question is missing...so I can not change its "jumpers" without knowing what I am changing them too.

Worst case scenario...I just have to leave the slave HDD connected via both IDE and power. That would be really, really strange if an operating system (Linux) requires two (2) HDDs to operate while Windows only requires one (1) HDD to operate. I know that can not be true because I know tons of people have boxes that are linux only.

Since I am at my mom's house (4 hours away) I don't know when I will be able to next tackle this issue. In the mean time, I have some more questions:

1) Now that I have GRUB on both MBR and HDA1, could / would that cause any trouble down the road?

2) The command: >>> grub-install /dev/hdxx <<< (where I presume hdxx would be hda, my master hdd), was suggested earlier. I haven't tried this yet because I don't know where to enter it while I have the live cd running. I assume in terminal, but don't know for sure. Is that correct? Would it be any different than putting it on HDA1?

3) This is not a question, but more of an observation. On BIOS, my boot order currently is:
1st) floppy,
2nd) cd burner (which is the 2nd IDE channel - master...the dvd reader is 2nd IDE channel - slave)
3rd) master HDD (the HDD with Linux which is the primary IDE channel - master)
4th) some "network" something or other.

So with that information, could someone explain why BIOS says "none" for my master HDD if I disconnect only my slave HDD? Strangely, if I reconnect my slave HDD, then BIOS lists the long serial # of my master HDD and everything seems to work well once again.

The MEPIS community is rather slow in responding so that is why I have been posting here. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and welcome more. Thanks again!
 
Old 08-20-2006, 06:10 PM   #19
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This is not a Linux (or Mepis) problem - it's a BIOS issue. Hence if you were to try and install Windows it would also require both drives installed, so forget any "Window s\vs. Linux" comparisons.

I think this is caused if you have 2 drives jumpered as Master, and you remove the one from the "master" location on the cable. Been a while since I played with that sort of thing. Did you try my suggestion of (physically) moving the drive ??.

I'd just leave the disk in and not mount it - then you can mount it manually in need. Say to copy backups onto it, or whatever.
As for grub in both the MBR and the partition boot sector, don't worry about it. If you were to chain-load it from another loader there is the potential for problems, but that is unlikely in your scenario I suspect.
 
Old 08-21-2006, 01:15 AM   #20
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A BIOS issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by syg00
This is not a Linux (or Mepis) problem - it's a BIOS issue. Hence if you were to try and install Windows it would also require both drives installed, so forget any "Window s\vs. Linux" comparisons.

I think this is caused if you have 2 drives jumpered as Master, and you remove the one from the "master" location on the cable. Been a while since I played with that sort of thing. Did you try my suggestion of (physically) moving the drive ??.

I'd just leave the disk in and not mount it - then you can mount it manually in need. Say to copy backups onto it, or whatever.
As for grub in both the MBR and the partition boot sector, don't worry about it. If you were to chain-load it from another loader there is the potential for problems, but that is unlikely in your scenario I suspect.

So you think it is a BIOS issue? Well, I am certain that the master / slave hdd are jumpered correctly. I checked several times.

Regarding your suggestion of physically moving the drive....this is what I did (i.e., this is what I interpreted your suggestion to mean): I completely disconnected both hdds. Then, I took the slave hdd interface (IDE cable and power cable) and connected them to the master hdd. However, the problem was the same.

Did I interpret your suggestion correctly?

On a different note, I have thought of a new idea: What if I were to simply disconnect the slave hdd and then re-install Linux on the one (and only) hdd available? Then, assuming that goes well, I could (in theory) just connect and mount the slave hdd as needed. The last time I installed Linux, I had both hdds connected but if only one hdd is connected, maybe I can sidestep the issue.
 
Old 08-21-2006, 07:56 AM   #21
Emerson
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Quote:
Someone mentioned "cable select" earlier. I have no idea what that is. Unfortunately, the "Master / Slave" sticker guide on the HDD in question is missing...so I can not change its "jumpers" without knowing what I am changing them too.

So you think it is a BIOS issue? I am certain that the master / slave hdd are jumpered correctly. I checked several times.
This is more like your issue. How can you be sure jumpers are set correctly if you even do not know what Cable Select is? And stickers are missing?

P. S. Do not call people "someone", this is plain rude.
 
Old 08-21-2006, 11:13 AM   #22
tnandy
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Quote:
Someone mentioned "cable select" earlier. I have no idea what that is. Unfortunately, the "Master / Slave" sticker guide on the HDD in question is missing...so I can not change its "jumpers" without knowing what I am changing them too.
Quote:
I am certain that the master / slave hdd are jumpered correctly. I checked several times.
If you don't know what cable select means, then I'm not sure how you can say you are certain you have set the jumpers correctly. Further, setting jumpers is a hardware issue where partitioning, MBRs, GRUB are all software issues. You must solve the hardware issues before the software issues have any meaning.

On most later model hard drives there are several pins that are not used for the power plug or the data ribbon connector. These extra pins are the jumper pins. A jumper is a tiny plastic sleeve containing a metal connector. Placing the jumper over a particular pair of the pins tells the hard drive it is the master drive. Placing the jumper over a different pair of pins (or sometimes removing it entirely) marks the hard drive as a slave. Placing the jumper over yet a third pair of pins sets the hard drive to "cable select". This last setting means that the placement of the hard drive on the cable decides whether the hard drive is the master or slave. It depends on the cable, of course, but generally, the hard drive connected to the end is the master and the one connected in the middle is the slave.

The jumper pins differ in placement depending on the brand and model of the hard drive. If there are no stickers on the drive itself, you will have to go to the manufacturer's web site and look up the jumper settings. In order for your computer to work, you must set the jumpers properly for its current configuration. You can't get around this by anything you do in software.

Personally, I never use cable select. Further, if possible, I always pin the hard drive connected to the master position on the cable as master and the drive plugged into the slave spot as slave. This has nothing to do with the operation of the computer and everything to do with being able to tell at a glance which drive is the master and which is slave.

Regardless, you must properly set the jumpers on any hard drives that will be connected or the BIOS will not properly recognize the hard drives. Some brands of hard drives set as master must be jumpered differently depending on whether a slave is connected or not. This is probably why your setup fails when you remove the slave drive. I suggest you set up the computer with both hard drives connected permanently. You can use software later to "turn off" the second hard drive for whatever reason.

Now as to the confusion over hda versus hda1: "hda" refers to the master hard drive connected to the first IDE controller, "hdb" to the slave drive on the first controller, "hdc" to the master on the second controller, etc. "hda1" refers to the first partition on the master drive connected to the first IDE controller, "hda2" is the second partition on the same drive. "hdb1" would be the first partition on the slave drive connected to the first IDE controller.

You can think of the master boot record (MBR) as a tiny, hidden partition at the beginning of every hard drive. The space for the MBR is automatically allocated--you do not need to use fdisk or any other partitioning software to create it. It has just enough room for a boot loader program like GRUB. It is NOT the same as the /boot partition in Linux. The only thing this boot loader program does is choose which partition on which drive will get booted. (When there's only one operating system installed on the computer, there's only one choice for the boot loader. Most exclusive Windows users don't even know the MBR and boot loader exist because this single choice is handled for them under the covers.) The time you really notice a boot loader is in dual-boot or multiple-boot computers (computers with more than one operating system installed). It is the first thing you see after the power-on-self-test (POST) and BIOS hardware detection are complete. While each hard drive on your computer has its own MBR, only one actually gets used at a time. Some BIOS programs allow you to select which hard drive's MBR you want to use, others simply start with the MBR on the master drive on the first IDE controller.

Now back to your specific problem. Now that you've got your hard drives jumpered and permanently screwed into your computer, you want to be able to virtually remove one. That's easy. You also want it to be formatted NTFS. That's hard.

Virtually removing a hard drive partition is as easy as removing a line in a config file. For each partition on each hard drive that Linux can use, there's a line in a file called fstab in the directory /etc. This line tells Linux such things as where the partition is, how it is formatted, whether it is read-only or read/write. If you delete the line or comment it out by placing a poundsign (#) in column 1, Linux can no longer see that hard drive partition. If that partition is the only one on the hard drive, Linux can no longer see the hard drive. Google fstab for more info.

The NTFS device driver is still being debugged. From what I've read, the reading part is pretty much there, but the write operation isn't perfect yet. You might consider using a different disk format if possible.

Finally, why do you want to sometimes have the hard drive and sometimes leave it off? Wouldn't it be better to store the files you want to keep there and then simply protect and hide them when they weren't needed? For example, you could make a directory named /usr/protect, copy the files there, and change all the properties so the directory was hidden and no one else (except the administrative root user) could read, write, or execute any of the files stored there.

Good luck!
 
Old 08-21-2006, 06:33 PM   #23
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Lol...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerson
This is more like your issue. How can you be sure jumpers are set correctly if you even do not know what Cable Select is? And stickers are missing?

P. S. Do not call people "someone", this is plain rude.

LOL...calling someone "someone" is considered rude? I can't remember who mentioned what....but I do my best to give credit! LOL.

Yes, the "jumper" sticker on the master hdd is missing, which is why I am hesitant to play with the jumpers. However, I know that hdd is indeed the master, because that was the hdd that had Windows on it (before I reformatted and installed linux). Plus, BIOS shows it as the master hdd. Plus, the slave hdd does actually still have the "jumper" stickers and its jumpers match the "slave" configuration. Plus, it is my brother's old computer...and he said that the hdd in question is master....LOL.

Unless, of course, jumper order is somehow different for Linux than Windows....I've never heard of that though.
 
Old 08-21-2006, 06:48 PM   #24
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Wow.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnandy

Finally, why do you want to sometimes have the hard drive and sometimes leave it off? Wouldn't it be better to store the files you want to keep there and then simply protect and hide them when they weren't needed? For example, you could make a directory named /usr/protect, copy the files there, and change all the properties so the directory was hidden and no one else (except the administrative root user) could read, write, or execute any of the files stored there.

Good luck!

Wow...you gave me lots to digest there, not just that last paragraph. I'll be mulling it over. Thanks!
 
Old 08-21-2006, 08:31 PM   #25
noobiwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBA Whore
Yes, the "jumper" sticker on the master hdd is missing, which is why I am hesitant to play with the jumpers. However, I know that hdd is indeed the master, because that was the hdd that had Windows on it (before I reformatted and installed linux). Plus, BIOS shows it as the master hdd. Plus, the slave hdd does actually still have the "jumper" stickers and its jumpers match the "slave" configuration. Plus, it is my brother's old computer...and he said that the hdd in question is master....LOL.

MBA

Here's a twist for you, some drives leave the jumper off for a setting they call "Master/Single". If you place a second drive on the cable you have to install a jumper in the "Master" position. What is reported in BIOS must take this into consideration. Your drive may be reported as "Master" when the slave drive is connected, but may not be seen when it is the only drive on the cable. Sounds strange, I know.

Also, is the drive with the missing sticker the same make and model as the slave drive? or is there anything on the drive with the model number still intact? (Long shot, I know, since the sticker is missing.

You can always connect the slave drive, boot Windows and use the device mangler to get the drive's model and serial number, get on the manufacturer's web site and look up the drive specs. I have done this with numerous WD, Seagate, and Maxtor drives.

btw, playing with jumper settings will not hurt the drive unless you do some sort of write operation with it improperly jumpered.

I would try removing the jumper to see if the BIOS will see it with the correct drive geometry. If it doesn't, put the jumper back and try the above lookup suggestion.

noobiwan

Last edited by noobiwan; 08-21-2006 at 08:37 PM.
 
Old 08-21-2006, 08:34 PM   #26
noobiwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnandy
Virtually removing a hard drive partition is as easy as removing a line in a config file. For each partition on each hard drive that Linux can use, there's a line in a file called fstab in the directory /etc. This line tells Linux such things as where the partition is, how it is formatted, whether it is read-only or read/write. If you delete the line or comment it out by placing a poundsign (#) in column 1, Linux can no longer see that hard drive partition. If that partition is the only one on the hard drive, Linux can no longer see the hard drive. Google fstab for more info.

The NTFS device driver is still being debugged. From what I've read, the reading part is pretty much there, but the

Good luck!
Tnandy,

Great post! I found info in this I can use! maybe. I'm still playing and learning..

noobiwan
 
Old 08-22-2006, 01:42 AM   #27
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Noobiwan...I noticed you are using

Noobiwan....I noticed you are using MEPIS 6 and Ubuntu 6.

How do you like them? I heard MEPIS 6 is Ubuntu based....is that true?

How does MEPIS 6 compare / contrast to older MEPIS (like mine, for example).

I thought about switching to Ubuntu 6, but I heard it was really buggy, so I decided against doing so.
 
Old 08-22-2006, 07:17 AM   #28
syg00
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Have a look at this thread - I have just finished restoring from the Mepis 6 fiasco.

Ubuntu 6 I have on two boxes, including this P-III 666MHz laptop with a Cisco 350 wifi (11b).
Great for setups I don't want to have to dick around with.

Last edited by syg00; 08-22-2006 at 08:44 AM.
 
Old 08-23-2006, 07:00 PM   #29
noobiwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBA Whore
Noobiwan....I noticed you are using MEPIS 6 and Ubuntu 6.

How do you like them? I heard MEPIS 6 is Ubuntu based....is that true?

How does MEPIS 6 compare / contrast to older MEPIS (like mine, for example).

I thought about switching to Ubuntu 6, but I heard it was really buggy, so I decided against doing so.
Sorry about the delay in answering, I got caught on the phone last night.....

I have only been messing around with Linux for about a month now. I have been experimenting and learning with FC5 up until 2 days ago. I used Mepis 3.4 to repartition drives and then almost immediately discovered Mepis 6, so I can't really do a fair comparison. So far I like it, but I haven't really gotten too far into trying to configure for multimedia and video editing, yet. The only annoyance is with my cheap a## LCD monitor. First boot and the LCD auto tunes and locks the horizontal sync bar in the middle of the screen. My display settings to change the refresh rate to 60Hz fixes it, but I have to log in for that to take effect.

My first impression of Ubuntu 6 was good. I was quickly frustrated with the inability to log in as root, or to enter Super user mode in the terminal window. I have since found out root operations have to be done with sudo. Even for a month old newbie like myself, that is a bit of an adjustment. I may go back to Ubuntu to continue configuring the install for multimedia and editing again, but I have some other distros to try out first, like PCLinuxOS and Mandriva. I am finding I like the KDE desktop better than Gnome as well.

Cheers

Last edited by noobiwan; 08-23-2006 at 07:06 PM.
 
Old 08-27-2006, 11:52 AM   #30
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Fixed

Fixed.

Turns out I am a dumb@ss for speaking too soon. . .the jumpers on the primary HDD were NOT configured properly. I looked up the serial # online and found the proper configuration and proceeded accordingly.

Lesson learned: don't be a dumb@ss.

Still, my many thanks to all who attempted to help!
 
  


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