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Old 02-26-2017, 09:16 PM   #46
linux-man
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tofino_surfer View Post
>>>Another good strategy is to get a copy of VirtualBox (it's free ...), and to run Linux on top of Windows in a virtual machine.

While this is an easy way of trying Linux it is much less efficient to run especially on older hardware.
Less efficient in which areas of newer hardware?
 
Old 02-26-2017, 09:35 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidMcCann View Post
It's not too difficult.

1. Free up some space on the disk. Run Disk Management (diskmgmt.msc) and shrink a partition.

3. Use gparted in a live Mint session to create suitable partitions. Create an extended partition on the free space and divide that into two logical partitions: one for your Linux (about 20GB) and another for your data.
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/gparted.html

http://linuxappfinder.com/
Can't point 3 be done with windows Disk Management?
 
Old 02-26-2017, 09:39 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linux-man View Post
Less efficient in which areas of newer hardware?
I'm not sure exactly what you might mean by "older hardware," but here is a relevant VirtualBox documentation page.

This page says that "since 2006, Intel and AMD processors have had support for 'hardware virtualization.'" VirtualBox obviously runs much better in systems which support these features, although it can run without them.

Pragmatically speaking ... "if you find yourself running with a chip that is older than this, maybe it's time to buy a new motherboard?"[/i]

However ... "if your objective is to 'try Linux,' why do you particularly care if it's 'a bit pokey' on your gear?" This approach enables you to 'try Linux' without modifying (or jeopardizing) anything about your "host" environment. And, to me, that's a big thing.

"Snapshots" are also a great tool: "Okay, first, let me take a snapshot. Then, let's try this and see what happens."
 
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Old 02-26-2017, 09:51 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmeehan View Post
Next I loaded XP on the NTFS partition going through the whole format thing.
Why windows xp and not the newer windows versions?
 
Old 02-26-2017, 10:41 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickkkk View Post
Once you're ready to manipulate the Windows partition, I would recommend doing that from within Windows with the Disk Management tool (This Computer's context menu - Manage - Disk Management down near the bottom of the list of tools ...). GParted will let you do it, but it is safer to let Windows itself decide how much to let you shrink its partition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickkkk View Post
... then you can boot back into the GParted live session and create a partition for your linux install, along with a swap partition if you decide to do that
Shrink the partition with Windows Disk Management but create partition and swap with GParted.
Why not let windows disk management do both though?
 
Old 02-26-2017, 10:50 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickkkk View Post
I have never personally had this type of problem and I've been dual-booting Windows and linux on various laptops and other computers since around 2008.
What procedure are you implementing to get this result?
 
Old 02-26-2017, 10:54 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
I'm not sure exactly what you might mean by "older hardware," but here is a relevant VirtualBox documentation page.

This page says that "since 2006, Intel and AMD processors have had support for 'hardware virtualization.'" VirtualBox obviously runs much better in systems which support these features, although it can run without them.

Pragmatically speaking ... "if you find yourself running with a chip that is older than this, maybe it's time to buy a new motherboard?"[/i]

However ... "if your objective is to 'try Linux,' why do you particularly care if it's 'a bit pokey' on your gear?" This approach enables you to 'try Linux' without modifying (or jeopardizing) anything about your "host" environment. And, to me, that's a big thing.

"Snapshots" are also a great tool: "Okay, first, let me take a snapshot. Then, let's try this and see what happens."
linux-man,

If you install Virtualbox onto your Windows installation, you do not need to re-partition your hard drive for Linux. And as sundial say's, as long as your PC isn't still an old Pentium 3 (or lower), you should be able to run Virtualbox on it (under Windows).

If your not sure whether your PC is up to it, check out the link sundial provided.
 
Old 02-27-2017, 07:27 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linux-man View Post
Shrink the partition with Windows Disk Management but create partition and swap with GParted.
Why not let windows disk management do both though?
Hi again linux-man. Windows Disk Management doesn't support any other file systems than NTFS or one of the FAT derivatives (FAT32, exFAT ...) . So if you want to install linux to an NTFS partition, which linux CAN support with the appropriate file system driver (ntfs-3g), or to an exFAT partition (same thing ... different driver ...), then yes, you can do the partitioning with Windows Disk Management.

That said, I would not recommend the above. Linux systems natively support other file systems, most commonly ext4, and are usually installed on such. This is what I would recommend, in order to achieve optimal stability and take advantage of all the journaling capabilities of linux on ext4.

So again, best practice is to shrink down your Windows partition with Windows Disk Management within Windows, boot it up again to make sure all is well, and then boot your live GParted ISO to create the ext4 and swap partitions (swap is optional) in the now available space. Again, many linux distros have a sequence in their installation programs that will guide you through the partitioning step, but not all.

Cheers !

Last edited by Rickkkk; 02-27-2017 at 08:02 AM.
 
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:30 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linux-man View Post
How would I go about saving my work in virtual environment though?
I thought powering off virtual machine and the subsequent fresh restart means fresh slate?
To expand upon the post from Rickkkk:
When you save your work in a live-cd session running entirely in memory, it may not get saved to disk. In this case there will be no record of it after a reboot. Some live-cd distros support a persistent home folder on disk or USB device that can reload on boot to provide an experience more like a full install.
Virtual containers emulate a real machine, including the hard drive, to provide an experience as exactly like having a physical machine as possible (using current technology). The installed distribution will behave almost exactly as it would in a physical install minus the performance overhead for virtualization and that the devices are emulated standard devices rather than the real physical ones. (Fewer driver choices, fewer driver problems.)
If the distro would allow you to save your work through a reboot cycle when physically installed, then it should also do so when installed in a virtual container.
I would either run a live-cd image as a test or trial. If I wanted to run it longer term without dual boot, I would install the full install ISO to a virtual container. Unless you are testing or documenting a live-cd image there is little reason to install a live-cd image onto a virtual container.
That said, I like do do exactly that just to see what the install looks like when runnign a live-cd image and then installing from that image. Doing so I discovered that some live-cd install procedures differ from the install from the install ISO.
Also, it can be fun. If you like seeing what the install and initial setup is like and how it differs from what you have seen before.
Important point: it is almost totally risk free to install a Linux or BSD ISO into a virtual container, and it is a fine way to learn. Doing so does not even require burning the ISO to media, you load directly from the ISO file. With no cost, no risk, and no driver issues to resolve it seems the perfect way to experiment with a new install or operating system.
The only drawback, and this applies to most live-cd and virtual operations, is speed. Reading from a CD, or running in a virtual (emulation) container, is slower than a real install. Do not expect native-iron performance. On the other hand, a live-cd that can load entirely into memory is only slow during the initial boot, and a container with adequate resources on fast iron can be pretty snappy. I have been pretty happy with the performance on desktop and gaming platforms, less so on underpowered laptops. (YMMV)

Give it a try. It costs nothing but time, you may have fun, and it may teach you more than you can read here.
 
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:35 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linux-man View Post
Can't point 3 be done with windows Disk Management?
For a linux install you need a linux partition (or at least file system) format. While Linux can create and modify partitions for Windows correctly, Windows does not support creating partitions for Linux.
Shrinking an existing partition to make ROOM for a linux partitions can be done from windows. After that you need something better than Windows for the remaining steps.
As mentioned above, virtual containers use the underlying file system and EMULATE a disk, so you do not need any partitioning changes. Any partitioning done WITHIN the container can use the OS defaults and the entire EMULATED disk without changing your REAL disk partitioning in any way. This is very safe.

Last edited by wpeckham; 02-27-2017 at 07:38 AM.
 
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Old 02-27-2017, 07:53 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linux-man View Post
What procedure are you implementing to get this result?
.

... pretty well what I've been describing in my previous posts. Essentially:

1) Shrink Windows partition to optimal size within Windows with Windows Disk Management. Verify integrity by rebooting at least once into Windows.

2) Boot a live ISO of GParted and create the appropriate partitions for a linux install. I keep things simple and create one ext4 root ("/") partition and one swap partition, but there are several schools of thought on this (separate boot, home, even var partitions ...) - I invite you to read up on this should you be interested in exploring these options. Since you are starting out with linux, however, in my opinion, the above-mentioned simplest approach is probably best. I still do things that way and have as yet found no reason to change.

3) Pick a distro ("distro" = "distribution", or "version of linux" ... there are many, choosing the best one for yourself is a whole other discussion ... ) and install according to the distro's instructions, including the installation of the boot loader (usually GRUB), which will permit you to choose either Windows or linux at machine startup.

If you are interested in sharing files between the 2 systems (Windows and linux), I find the easiest and most stable solution is simply to install the ntfs-3g package in your linux system, mount the Windows partition and use a designated directory as a "shared" space. Alternatively or in combination with this, ext4 file system drivers are available for Windows, even read-write. I use Paragon's free offering and for the few times I have needed it (to read from or write to a linux partition from within Windows), it has functioned as advertised.

In a nutshell, that's about it. Feel free to ask about details should you decide to move ahead with this. As others here have mentioned, the option of trying linux out in a virtual machine environment could be useful for familiarizing yourself with it and trying out different distros before getting into the above. The issue of hardware recency is mostly important for questions of capacity and performance, unless your machine is so old that it cannot possibly support virtualization. There is obviously some performance overhead when using a hypervisor (VM environment), but this can still be a good way to "try before you buy". so to speak ... ;-)

Cheers !

Last edited by Rickkkk; 02-27-2017 at 09:14 AM.
 
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Old 02-27-2017, 10:55 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickkkk View Post
Linux systems natively support other file systems, most commonly ext4, and are usually installed on such. This is what I would recommend, in order to achieve optimal stability and take advantage of all the journaling capabilities of linux on ext4.
I'll go with this option

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickkkk View Post
Best practice is to shrink down your Windows partition with Windows Disk Management within Windows, boot it up again to make sure all is well,
Shrink the larger partition with disk management? How much by?

Looking at Disk management I see my largest drive as:
Windows8_OS(C) 432.64GB NFTS Healthy (Boot, Page File, Crash Dump, Primary Partition)

and another smaller drive:

(D) 25GB Healthy NFTS Healthy Primary Partition
There's also much smaller partitions for; recovery, EFI System Partition, OEM partition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickkkk View Post
and then boot your live GParted ISO to create the ext4 and swap partitions (swap is optional) in the now available space.

Last edited by linux-man; 02-28-2017 at 07:29 AM.
 
Old 02-28-2017, 07:31 PM   #58
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Hi again linux-man,

Firstly, it would seem that you have 2 main NTFS partitions:

- a 432.64GB main Windows boot, system and data partition (your C: drive on Windows)

- a 25 GB data partition (your D: drive on Windows).

Here's what I would do :

- Save anything you need from your D: drive to somewhere else (your C: drive, for example).

- Delete the D: drive partition in Windows Disk Management

- Do not touch or modify in any way the recovery partition, the EFI System Partition or the OEM partition.

- Still in Windows Disk Management, use the Shrink command on the C: drive (the 432.64GB partition). As to your question of how much to shrink down to : Windows will specify the minimum size it is willing to let you shrink the partition down to. You then have to choose, within that constraint, how much space you would like to leave for the Windows partition. Questions to guide you : which system will you be using more often, Windows or linux ? Where will you be manipulating the largest amount of data, in Windows or linux ? ... Purely as an example, my personal choice in a system I have with a similarly sized drive, was to leave around 80-100GB to Windows and use the rest for linux. That said, I am more of a linux user than Windows. Your mileage may vary. Once you choose the amount, shrink the partition and then reboot Windows to verify all is well.

- Then boot into your GParted live ISO, and use the space liberated in the above step (by deleting the 25 GB NTFS partition and shrinking the main Windows paritition) to create your main linux (ext4) and linux-swap partitions (swap is optional - ask if you need help deciding).

- Then you're ready to install your linux distribution of choice into your just-created ext4 partition. You will at one point in the process have to choose a boot loader and install it (usually GRUB), which will permit you to choose between linux and Windows at boot time. The boot-loader may require some tweaking to make sure it works properly - normally GRUB is pretty simple - comes with an auto-configure command which, in combination with the os-prober tool, is usually good at finding Windows and setting up GRUB to offer the choice at boot. Still, if it doesn't work properly and worst-case, you can't boot anything, do not despair. Such issues are usually pretty simple to correct.

Hope this is clear - again, feel free to ask as needed and good luck :-)
 
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Old 02-28-2017, 09:40 PM   #59
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Re partitioning mentioned above:
There is excellent reason for using separate file systems for /, /home, /var (and perhaps /data or another extra) on a SERVER. On a desktop machine this may be overkill. On a laptop or virtual container it is CERTAINLY overkill and can cause as many problems as it avoids on a server.
For your first venture into the linux world I recommend keeping things simple: / using ext4 (minimum 20G, max 100G) and a swap space (1G should suffice if you are not running very heavy apps, 1.2x your ram amount if you run heavy).

On a server the separate file systems prevent one folder from filling up root and causing a crash. If you know what you are doing you can make the system more stable and dependable. On a server you may need twice the ram amount as swap for the same reason: stability and dependability. With a laptop or desktop system these factors are less important, and it is better to create a system that is simple and less easy to break when you are "playing around" in ways you would (should) not on a server.

One think to keep in mind is that if you dual boot, the boot is under control of GRUB. Grub will be homed and configured from your linux partition. This makes reversing the linux install and giving the space back to windows a bit tricky. I doubt if that will be a problem, but if you install linux in dual boot with Windows you will need to look this up should you change your mind and want to go back to Windows only.
 
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Old 02-28-2017, 09:55 PM   #60
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Excellent point by wpeckham above concerning file systems and partitioning on servers. I had assumed we were talking about a personal machine here, but if not - please explore the mentioned options.

As to coming back to a Windows only setup, I've (sadly ...) had to do it once in a while and, although the procedure is different, it is fairly painless. One needs to simply give the boot control back to the Windows bootloader instead of GRUB. Certain tools facilitate this, worst case - booting the Windows install CD or carefully using the recovery partition (one of the ones I mentioned you shouldn't touch) will do the trick. As wpeckham mentioned, hopefully you will not want to do this.

Cheers and best of luck - let us know how it goes.
 
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