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Old 03-12-2009, 04:47 AM   #46
crashmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T74marcell View Post
Technically it is possible to to install a Linux system without any GNU tools at all - you'll have to get a kernel and all the tools that have a different license (non-GPL). Not necessarily efficient, but still possible.
Could you enlighten me how you would accomplish that because I really don't see it?

To start with you'd miss gcc and the whole toolchain.
 
Old 03-12-2009, 06:48 AM   #47
salasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrouf View Post
I believe NT is the kernel based on DOS and windows is the desktop environment. xp and 2000 use 2 different DE and vista use another one. xp and 2000 are 2 distros of windows that use a different DE. Each windows distro has several branches, like 'premium' and 'expert' or 'student'. Each branch has a different selection of packages. I believe only the 'ultimate' version of vista has the grep command installed by default. You can install packages from third parties or buy them from Microsoft to have a full system, but it is less expensive if you buy the packages you want bundled in the distro. Usually, you want the basic 'Internet explorer' (web browser) and 'Wordpad' (office suite) bundled so it doesn't cost you too much, but if you have enough money, you can have 'Office' (database and office suite), 'Photoshop' (image editing), 'Outlook' (email client), and 'winzip' (file archiver tool) bundled with the distro so you don't have to pay for them later. After you have downloaded the windows distro (xp, 2000 or vista), you must pay for each package, so some people prefer buying a DVD with vista 'premium' with everything bundled, instead of xp 'home' with just the minimal 'internet explorer'. This may seem strange and expensive, but it is actually cheaper because of the TCO (Total Cost of Ownership).
and
Quote:
Sorry, my bad.
Indeed, NT is a separate kernel that is compatible with DOS but written from scratch. Is that correct?
There are differences between the ways different people define the edges of the OS and what do, and what do not, constitute 'add-ons'. For example, for legalistic reasons, Microsoft once decided that it would be a good thing if the browser (provided it was Internet Exploder) should constitute part of the OS and not be an add on.

This decision was either an attempt to hoodwink the various authorities looking into anti-competitive behaviour or a bizarre and imbecilic architectural decision (or, err, both), but I think you have to say, if Microsoft are prepared to pay the cost of doing something stupid, it is up to them to do it.
  • NT isn't a kernel. It is an OS (which has, as part of it, a kernel) and includes much that I would consider to be add-ons beyond both the basic kernel and OS.
  • NT isn't derived from DOS. It was a 'clean(ish) sheet of paper, fom the ground up' OS. It can run DOS programs (is that what you mean by compatible?) in an 'emulated DOS box' and is aware of various DOS conventions like filenames.
  • All of the Windows line of operating systems include (minor) changes to the UI, with, in general, the UI becoming more refined as time goes on. However, in Windows the UI is a tightly bound part of the OS and since you can't in the recent versions run one without another, separating features of UI and those of the underlying OS isn't really meaningful.
  • Windows doesn't have 'distros' in any meaningful way. The difference between Win 2000 and Win XP is more like something like Fedora Core 6 and Fedora 8.
  • If the third party apps that you install are zero cost, it does not make any sense to pay Microsoft extra to get them in order to save money. I haven't installed grep on Windows, but as grep is a FSF package, doesn't that mean its free?
  • I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about bundling, but programs like Photoshop (not an MS program) aren't available in an official bundle with Windows; you might get a discount on buying Office and Windows together, but whether you would consider that a true bundle is unclear.

Crashmeister wrote:
Quote:
Could you enlighten me how you would accomplish that because I really don't see it?

To start with you'd miss gcc and the whole toolchain.
Unless you have a source-based distro, you don't need a compiler. Someone does, but the person doing the installing doesn't. And, the compiler doesn't have to be gcc; you could build with icc, if you really wanted to and wanted to restrict your options.
 
Old 03-12-2009, 07:06 AM   #48
crashmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salasi View Post
and

Unless you have a source-based distro, you don't need a compiler. Someone does, but the person doing the installing doesn't. And, the compiler doesn't have to be gcc; you could build with icc, if you really wanted to and wanted to restrict your options.
You can't build a distro w/o gnu tools afaik.It's not making sense to claim that you don't need gnu tools because other people already built the binaries useing gnu tools - that's like claiming electricity is made in the plug.

I doubt binaries built with the free as beer version of ICC are redistributable plus ICC also depends on gnu tools.

Don't get me wrong I am not in support of that political bickering that goes on lately but I just don't see any practical way you could build a Linux distro w/o gnu.
 
Old 03-13-2009, 04:18 AM   #49
salasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashmeister View Post
You can't build a distro w/o gnu tools afaik.It's not making sense to claim that you don't need gnu tools because other people already built the binaries useing gnu tools - that's like claiming electricity is made in the plug.
I really don't see your analogy here; if electricity is made in the plug, you could wander around with an electric appliance and the mains electricity would still be there to operate it, and it isn't. If your distro depends on components that are built with a compiler the compiler needs to be present where the components are built.

Quote:
I just don't see any practical way you could build a Linux distro w/o gnu.
Of course that is not what I argued. I didn't say it was a practical thing to do and I didn't say that, in practice, the person or organisation building the distro would want to do it without gnu.
 
Old 03-13-2009, 05:09 AM   #50
crashmeister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salasi View Post
If your distro depends on components that are built with a compiler the compiler needs to be present where the components are built.
I was responding to a post claiming that you could install Linux w/o gnu tools which is probably right but the post was slightly unclear on the difference between installing and building a distro:

Quote
Technically it is possible to to install a Linux system without any GNU tools at all - you'll have to get a kernel and all the tools that have a different license (non-GPL). Not necessarily efficient, but still possible.
End Quote

Now even if that would be possible (which I highly doubt) the installation would be basically unworkable because you would be missing a lot of apps and libraries that are needed by other things to maintain the installation.

But all this is really besides the point which is:

Without GNU tools and libraries there is no way to make/maintain a working Linux installation.

I'd be happy and install it at once if anybody proves me otherwise because I am fed up with the bickering from the RMS camp.
 
Old 03-13-2009, 05:56 AM   #51
brianL
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In that previous thread I mentioned in a previous post, one of the arguments against using GNU/Linux was that "gn" in "GNU" was hard to pronounce. Silly. Ignore malignant signals, they're insignificant.

Last edited by brianL; 03-13-2009 at 05:57 AM.
 
Old 03-13-2009, 06:07 AM   #52
crashmeister
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Keep that in mind for your next visit to the Pub when ordering....
 
  


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