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Old 05-16-2007, 11:30 AM   #1
DLGandalf
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change order sdx


The problem is known by many, but what is the correct way to solve it:

when I installed a pci-ide controller my drives changed, my root formerly sda5 is now sdb5 and the attached ide-disk is now sda*

-should I just live with this and change the fstab etc

-or should I change /dev/sdb to /dev/sda and vice versa, if so how?
I read something on these fora that I 'd have to use udev but I think it's fairly complicated so if someone could give me a kickstart

-other options?

thanks

edit:
- in the past I also had that pci-ide installed but everything worked as expected
-grub still uses the 'old' configuration
-(just a thing I'd like to know 'df' still shows '/' mounted to /dev/sda5 with the correct usage, while sda5 doesn't even exist how is this possible?)
 
Old 05-16-2007, 11:51 AM   #2
saikee
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I haven't run into much trouble with the SCSI/Sata/USB assigning disk sdx yet but that may be because I do not use a pci-ide controller.

I think there is a logical to it that how the sdx is prioritised.

It is possible that there is a table Linux checks in handing out the disk order and the PCI-IDE controller may be ahead of the onboard Sata port or it could be just an unanticipated condition hence a mistake.

If your controller is a PCI card that controls IDE devicee, like a Pata disk, then the disk should have been named either hda, hdb, hdc or hdd.

However if all the 4 IDE devices have been used up then there is no possible IDE device for the PCI-IDE controller. Linux permits 64 raw devices in a Pata and the combination of 4 IDE disks time 64 raw devices give exactly 256 devices.

The only way the attached disk can be read would be to treat it as a SCSI/Sata/Usb device. Different Bios can react differently to it so may be it is only your mobo gives the sda to the PCI-IDE controlled device whereas other Mobo may do the opposite. Linux accepts 16 raw devices in each of the 16 SCSI/Sata/Usb disks to make up the 256 devices.

I take it in your your case you just can't swap the sda with the sdb disk because one is a Pata while the other is a Sata.
 
Old 05-16-2007, 12:55 PM   #3
DLGandalf
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ehh, since kernel 2.6.20 the standard way of using harddisks (in kubuntu) is through the lib_ata, in other words sata AND pata are both designated with sd'x'
 
Old 05-16-2007, 07:59 PM   #4
saikee
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DLGandalf,

Your Post #3 gave me one hell of scare.

I have 3 Pata each with 63 partitions but a Sata only allows 15 partitions maximum. All hell will break loose if your Post #3 is true.

I checked with my Slax 6.0, with 2.6.20 kerenl, in hdd55 and Suse 10.3, with kernel 2.6.20-2, in hdd52 and can see inside these distros all my Pata disk partitions hda, hdc and hdd there.

If you are telling us the truth then I wouldn't have been able to install two distros with 2.6.20 kernel in Pata hdd disk, would I?

Here is the proof showing Slax 6.0, with a kernel 2.6.20, displaying the partitions of three Pata disks hda, hdc and hdd, one Sata disk sda and one pen drive sdb.
Code:
root@slax:~# uname -a
Linux slax 2.6.20 #2 SMP Wed Feb 7 17:26:47 GMT 2007 i686 athlon-4 i386 GNU/Linux
root@slax:~# fdisk -l
Warning: omitting partitions after #60.
They will be deleted if you save this partition table.

Disk /dev/hda: 300.0 GB, 300090728448 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 36483 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

   Device Boot      Start         End      Blocks   Id  System
/dev/hda1               1         122      979933+  16  Hidden FAT16
/dev/hda2             123         244      979965   16  Hidden FAT16
/dev/hda3   *         245         366      979965   16  Hidden FAT16
/dev/hda4             367       36483   290109802+   5  Extended
/dev/hda5             367         609     1951866   82  Linux swap
/dev/hda6             610        1217     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda7            1218        1825     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda8            1826        2433     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda9            2434        3041     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda10           3042        3649     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda11           3650        4257     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda12           4258        4865     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda13           4866        5473     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda14           5474        6081     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda15           6082        6689     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda16           6690        7297     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda17           7298        7905     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda18           7906        8513     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda19           8514        9121     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda20           9122        9729     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda21           9730       10337     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda22          10338       10945     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda23          10946       11553     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda24          11554       12161     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda25          12162       12769     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda26          12770       13377     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda27          13378       13985     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda28          13986       14593     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda29          14594       15201     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda30          15202       15809     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda31          15810       16417     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda32          16418       17025     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda33          17026       17633     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda34          17634       18241     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda35          18242       18849     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda36          18850       19457     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda37          19458       20065     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda38          20066       20673     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda39          20674       21281     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda40          21282       21889     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda41          21890       22497     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda42          22498       23105     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda43          23106       23713     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda44          23714       24321     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda45          24322       24929     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda46          24930       25537     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda47          25538       26145     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda48          26146       26753     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda49          26754       27361     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda50          27362       27969     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda51          27970       28577     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda52          28578       29185     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda53          29186       29793     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda54          29794       30401     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda55          30402       31009     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda56          31010       31617     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda57          31618       32833     9767488+  83  Linux
/dev/hda58          32834       34049     9767488+  83  Linux
/dev/hda59          34050       34657     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hda60          34658       35265     4883728+  83  Linux
Warning: omitting partitions after #60.
They will be deleted if you save this partition table.

Disk /dev/hdc: 500.1 GB, 500107862016 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 60801 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

   Device Boot      Start         End      Blocks   Id  System
/dev/hdc1   *           1        3315    26623123+  17  Hidden HPFS/NTFS
/dev/hdc2            3315        6354    24410767+  93  Amoeba
/dev/hdc3            6354        9393    24410767+  93  Amoeba
/dev/hdc4            9393       60801   412939342+   5  Extended
/dev/hdc5            9393       10001     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc6           10001       10609     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc7           10609       11217     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc8           11217       11825     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc9           11825       12433     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc10          12433       13041     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc11          13041       13649     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc12          13649       14257     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc13          14257       14865     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc14          14865       15473     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc15          15473       16081     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc16          16081       16689     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc17          16689       17297     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc18          17297       17905     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc19          17905       18513     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc20          18513       19121     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc21          19121       19729     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc22          19729       20337     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc23          20337       20945     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc24          20945       21553     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc25          21553       22161     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc26          22161       22769     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc27          22769       23377     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc28          23377       23985     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc29          23985       24593     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc30          24593       25201     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc31          25201       25809     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc32          25809       26417     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc33          26417       27025     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc34          27025       27633     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc35          27633       28241     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc36          28241       28849     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc37          28849       29457     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc38          29457       30065     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc39          30065       30673     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc40          30673       31281     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc41          31281       31889     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc42          31889       32497     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc43          32497       33105     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc44          33105       33713     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc45          33713       34321     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc46          34321       34929     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc47          34929       35537     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc48          35537       36145     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc49          36145       36753     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc50          36753       37361     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc51          37361       37969     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc52          37969       38577     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc53          38577       39185     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc54          39185       39793     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc55          39793       40401     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc56          40401       41009     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc57          41009       41617     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc58          41617       42225     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc59          42225       42833     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc60          42833       43441     4883728+  83  Linux
Warning: omitting partitions after #60.
They will be deleted if you save this partition table.

Disk /dev/hdd: 400.0 GB, 400088457216 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 48641 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

   Device Boot      Start         End      Blocks   Id  System
/dev/hdd1               1        3039    24410736   af  Unknown
/dev/hdd2            3040        6078    24410704+  b5  Unknown
Partition 2 does not end on cylinder boundary.
/dev/hdd3            6078        9117    24410830+  b5  Unknown
/dev/hdd4   *        9118       48641   317476530    5  Extended
/dev/hdd5            9118        9725     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd6            9726       10333     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd7           10334       10941     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd8           10942       11549     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd9           11550       12157     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd10          12158       12765     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd11          12766       13373     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd12          13374       13981     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd13          13982       14589     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd14          14590       15197     4883728+  93  Amoeba
/dev/hdd15          15198       15805     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd16          15806       16413     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd17          16414       17021     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd18          17022       17629     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd19          17630       18237     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd20          18238       18845     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd21          18846       19453     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd22          19454       20061     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd23          20062       20669     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd24          20670       21277     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd25          21278       21885     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd26          21886       22493     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd27          22494       23101     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd28          23102       23709     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd29          23710       24317     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd30          24318       24925     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd31          24926       25533     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd32          25534       26141     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd33          26142       26749     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd34          26750       27357     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd35          27358       27965     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd36          27966       28573     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd37          28574       29181     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd38          29182       29789     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd39          29790       30397     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd40          30398       31005     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd41          31006       31613     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd42          31614       32221     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd43          32222       32829     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd44          32830       33437     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd45          33438       34045     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd46          34046       34653     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd47          34654       35261     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd48          35262       35869     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd49          35870       36477     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd50          36478       37085     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd51          37086       37693     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd52          37694       38301     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd53          38302       38909     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd54          38910       39517     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd55          39518       40125     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd56          40126       40733     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd57          40734       41341     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd58          41342       41949     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd59          41950       42557     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/hdd60          42558       43165     4883728+  83  Linux

Disk /dev/sda: 203.9 GB, 203928109056 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 24792 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

   Device Boot      Start         End      Blocks   Id  System
/dev/sda1   *           1        5099    40957686    7  HPFS/NTFS
/dev/sda2            5100        6315     9767520   93  Amoeba
/dev/sda3            6316        6923     4883760   83  Linux
/dev/sda4            6924       24792   143532742+   5  Extended
/dev/sda5            6924        7531     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/sda6            7532        8139     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/sda7            8140        8747     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/sda8            8748        9355     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/sda9            9356        9963     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/sda10           9964       10571     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/sda11          10572       11179     4883728+  a9  NetBSD
/dev/sda12          11180       11787     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/sda13  *       11788       12395     4883728+  83  Linux
/dev/sda14          12396       23916    92542401   1c  Hidden W95 FAT32 (LBA)
/dev/sda15          23917       24792     7036438+  83  Linux

Disk /dev/sdb: 8254 MB, 8254389760 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 1003 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes

   Device Boot      Start         End      Blocks   Id  System
/dev/sdb1   *           1         243     1951866    6  FAT16
/dev/sdb2             244        1003     6104700    5  Extended
/dev/sdb5             244         365      979933+  82  Linux swap
/dev/sdb6             366        1003     5124703+  83  Linux
root@slax:~#

Last edited by saikee; 05-16-2007 at 08:20 PM.
 
Old 05-16-2007, 08:33 PM   #5
syg00
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DLGandalf is correct.
The old drivers are (currently) still supported - who knows for how long.

I suspect it'll be like udev - at some point, after all the warnings, you'll have to make the change-over.
 
Old 05-16-2007, 08:48 PM   #6
saikee
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syg00,

What happen to the distros installed beyond the 15th partitions?

I suppose it is the same story that the older kernel use hde, hdf, hdg... etc for the sata disks while the newer kernels groups them under the SCSI disks of sda, sdb etc.

Something isn't quite right. The hard disks are getting larger, now available in 1Tb, but the maximum number of partitions is reduced.
 
Old 05-16-2007, 09:11 PM   #7
Duck2006
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Quote:
in kubuntu
Is this 7.04 that you have installed?
 
Old 05-17-2007, 06:36 AM   #8
saikee
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This thread also confirms the hard disk naming convention changed in the 2.6.20 kernel. Apparently there are others unhappy about the change too.
 
Old 05-17-2007, 06:57 AM   #9
syg00
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Dunno saikee, I don't have an answer for you.
I ran into the partition (count) limitation just the once - on a (real) SCSI raid 5 array.
You're at the more extreme end of the range, but others are going to bump into this. Haven't looked at it to be honest - I'll have a look at lkml and see if it's been raised amongst the kernel devs.

Maybe LVM is the answer - despite the fact that neither you or I have embraceed it yet. A few PV with logical volumes to suit.
Something else to look at ....
 
Old 05-17-2007, 07:33 AM   #10
DLGandalf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duck2006
Is this 7.04 that you have installed?
yes

in reply to the 64 partitions and 15 for a scsi.. maybe this is an hardware limit, so the new lib_ata will still support 64 partitions?

I'd say give it a try with the (k)ubuntu live cd

edit:
btw any ideas concerning my problem 8-) ?
 
Old 05-17-2007, 07:55 AM   #11
syg00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLGandalf
btw any ideas concerning my problem 8-) ?
And we had a nice tangent going ...

Normally I would have said fix fstab and live with it - but your comments on grub and df in your initial post are "interesting".
Maybe I'll build a up system with P-ATA and S-ATA over the weekend and see if I get similar.
Or maybe I'll mow the yard ... we'll see.
 
Old 05-17-2007, 08:48 AM   #12
saikee
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Concerning about the solution to the OP problem do you have a problem of swapping the sda and sdb disks to satisfy the OS?

-------------------------------------------------------

Before the Sata disk was born IDE/Pata and SCSI disks are distinguished by the different major and minor number systems for the devices.

SCSI can be daisy-chained with up to 16 devices requiring a terminator resistor at the end device to indicate that it is the last of the chain. SCSI disks always require a driver loaded before it can be recognised and the number of devices will be detected/scanned in each booting. Sata is a variation of SCSI famaily and USB disks also fit in with the SCSI disk family which is software-driven.

IDE/Pata disks are controlled by mobo hardware which makes the disk available to an operating system without the need of a driver, at least that is how it works on all the MS systems.

The Linux 256 raw devives in each hard disk type is achieved by 4 IDE devices, of hda, hdb, hdc and hdd, each with 64 names of hda, hda1, hda2....to hda63. All the PC mobo I have seen have only two IDE channels each has a cable handling a master and a slave.

Sata disks are recent invention and individual ports are provided. However the 256 raw devices are achieved by the maximum 16 disks each with 16 devives names from sda, sda1, sda2...to sda15.

The above is the hardware limit according to the major/minor number system designed to address such hard disks.

According to the established Linux convention it is not possible to increase the device names of the a SCSI/Sata/USB disk. I have removed a 63-partition Pata disk say it is a hda and plugged it into the same PC as an external hard drive. It became sda. However Linux knows there are 63 partitions inside and that is not permitted and so none of the partition can be read. If I want to use it then the whole disk has to be formatted to start afresh. That disk when hooked back as an internak disk works perfectly again as a hda.

I don't doubt that Linux can alter the protocol to read a Pata as a Sata. The question is really is it worth it? Think of all the servers and existing PC that may run into trouble if the sdx change is mandatory. If the change isn't mandatory then more unwarranted problems are introduced into Linux.

Last edited by saikee; 05-17-2007 at 08:51 AM.
 
Old 05-17-2007, 04:44 PM   #13
Duck2006
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Ubuntu 7.04 looks at all hard drives as sd's. PATA, IDE, SATA, SCSI or USB drives
 
Old 05-17-2007, 07:22 PM   #14
saikee
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Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne UK
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My Ubuntu 7.04 is in hdc46 but it got a 2.6.19 kernel.

Last edited by saikee; 05-17-2007 at 07:41 PM.
 
  


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