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Old 10-25-2005, 10:35 AM   #1
imsomehalf
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Blasted Multimedia....


Im pretty much here for two reasons.

1) For help
2) For a rant.


Why the hell is linux so pathetic at getting mulitmedia to work. I dont have a flowing, fat as god knows what - bandwidth connection. I only have internet access at work. My Linux box is at home.

I tried to install mplayer last night on CentOS 4.1 and recieved an error about it needing libmp3lame.so.0. I understand what this means - mplayer depends on certain functions within the said package for it to work. But since I dont have an internet connection I cannot simply use yum to install any application that I need or want.

An application that is shipped with Windows would never require the user to go searching all over the internet to find additional files that it needs before it even installs properly or works to its said functionality. I know that I can ignore any of the dependency warnings and install anyway - but that means that the program wont do all it says it does until I sort out all of its dependencies. This is pathetic.

I switched to Linux not so long ago due to extreme frustration with Windows' reliability - but Linux doesnt make things easy for the newbie.

Everywhere I look on the internet I find tutorials for installing different kinds of multimedia applications. But they all tell me to use yum or some other kind of installer like it and "it will sort out all of your dependency problems"..... Jesus. :-/

Why cant these programs be shipped with their dependency programs? Nobody should be replying telling me that they are written by different people and different distributions require different dependency programs cause that doesnt actually solve anything. Even suggesting distributions that have some multimedia apps pre installed and working isnt even good enough because what happens when I want to update that program?

Can anyone help me? I want to install a program like mplayer and not have to go searching everywhere for the dependencies....And I dont have an internet connection. I can download some stuff from work and take it home but I dont want to get home after downloading a load of stuff only to find that something else needs something else before it will work.

Anybody?
 
Old 10-25-2005, 10:54 AM   #2
tuxrules
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Quote:
An application that is shipped with Windows would never require the user to go searching all over the internet to find additional files that it needs before it even installs properly or works to its said functionality.
Quote:
Why cant these programs be shipped with their dependency programs? Nobody should be replying telling me that they are written by different people and different distributions require different dependency programs cause that doesnt actually solve anything. Even suggesting distributions that have some multimedia apps pre installed and working isnt even good enough because what happens when I want to update that program?
That would be because Windows pays upfront fees for all the codecs and licences. You get all that after you pay for windows. I have not used CentOS but I know it is based on RedHat/Fedora. RedHat/Fedora generally don't include LAME because of copyright issues.(libmp3lame.so.0 is library for playing mp3 files included in the lame package). Some other distros include them (like slackware). So really it is not that Linux sucks on multimedia...but it is just the way commerical world works that thwarts linux from including proprietory stuff in a GPL system. Here's where you start getting into the world of lawyers, licences and copyrights.

If you don't have internet connection at home you can just actually go to any of the rpm sites and download that rpm and copy it on a usb stick or something...I believe those sites also have dependencies listed so you can also d/l all the deps.

Tux,

Edit: You can go to http://rpm.pbone.net ...click on advanced search and you would see all the distros that use rpm's listed. Deselect all and select CentOS (also pay attention to check boxes below..."Requires" checkbox). This should find you the necessary rpms.

Good luck...
No need to rant now

Last edited by tuxrules; 10-25-2005 at 11:01 AM.
 
Old 10-25-2005, 11:02 AM   #3
imsomehalf
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Thanks for your reply Tux, but you gotta admit that it is hugely frustrating have to go wandering in the bushes for two days trying to find what goes where and babysit the installation of these programs?!
 
Old 10-25-2005, 11:13 AM   #4
tuxrules
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Quote:
but you gotta admit that it is hugely frustrating have to go wandering in the bushes for two days trying to find what goes where and babysit the installation of these programs?!
Yes I do but then again, Linux is different in lot of ways to other OSes and thats what brings people to it. I know it can be frustrating at times but it is just a learning curve. Also you might have just experienced something called "rpm hell". It is a term coined by earlier users when they faced similar situations like yours.

Software installation has eased up a lot lately with yum and apt-get(debian based)...however, your case is different since you don't have internet connection at home. Anyway hang in there and enjoy the power and beauty of Linux.

Tux,
 
Old 10-25-2005, 11:09 PM   #5
tkedwards
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There's nothing difficult about getting multimedia working properly on most Linux distros. Eg. on Mandriva goto http://easyuprmi.zarb.org and setup access to the software repositories then install the packages win32codecs, xine-win32 and realcodecs. In total it takes about 10 minutes. I guarantee this is quicker and easier than downloading and installing quicktime, real player, Divx and running Windows Update to get the latest WMP update in Windows. Distros such as Ubuntu, Suse and Fedora (among others) have similar easy procedures.

A lot of the difficulty installing software in Linux is that people from the Windows world automatically goto the homepage for a piece of software and try to download it from there, and quickly get into trouble when they found they've downloaded source code that has to be built.


Quote:
An application that is shipped with Windows would never require the user to go searching all over the internet to find additional files that it needs before it even installs properly or works to its said functionality. I know that I can ignore any of the dependency warnings and install anyway - but that means that the program wont do all it says it does until I sort out all of its dependencies. This is pathetic.
Far from it, this problem has already been solved. Unfortunately as I mentioned above most Windows users will try and install software the Windows way, which is why they get into these problems with Linux.

Quote:
Why cant these programs be shipped with their dependency programs? Nobody should be replying telling me that they are written by different people and different distributions require different dependency programs cause that doesnt actually solve anything. Even suggesting distributions that have some multimedia apps pre installed and working isnt even good enough because what happens when I want to update that program?

Can anyone help me? I want to install a program like mplayer and not have to go searching everywhere for the dependencies....And I dont have an internet connection. I can download some stuff from work and take it home but I dont want to get home after downloading a load of stuff only to find that something else needs something else before it will work.
I think you've missed the point of the package management programs. Generally software has to be packaged for each distro due to the differences in each distro. The distros will then put all their packages into software repositories and the distro will come with a package management program (yum, apt, urpmi etc.) which can install software, along with all the dependencies from those repositories. These package management tools come pre-installed on your distribution, although often you will have to configure them to add extra repositories to get the multimedia things that couldn't be included in the distro.
 
Old 10-26-2005, 02:51 AM   #6
reddazz
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Quote:
Originally posted by imsomehalf
Thanks for your reply Tux, but you gotta admit that it is hugely frustrating have to go wandering in the bushes for two days trying to find what goes where and babysit the installation of these programs?!
I think you are reaching negative conclusions very quickly. Due to licensing issues some distros do not ship with multimedia apps (just like windows apart from obviously WMP which they own). If you know where to get Linux packages for your distro or use your distros online package repositories and automated tools it would not have taken you more than a few minutes to install lame.
 
Old 10-26-2005, 03:05 AM   #7
imsomehalf
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Believe me when I say that I want to use linux instead of windows.

The problem I have is that if I go to a programs website and download it. Take it home and try to install it - I get dependency errors. If I can then go online the next day at work and freely download these extra packages - why cant they just be packaged with the original program? Surely the installation mechanism can determine if the dependency packages are older or newer than the systems current packages and make the decision - whether by asking the user, or automatically - to install them or not.

Its just a stupid circle.

And I am quite aware of the automated installation programs that take care of the dependencies for you - but I am not connected to the internet at home so these packages are useless.
 
Old 10-26-2005, 03:53 AM   #8
cs-cam
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Quote:
And I am quite aware of the automated installation programs that take care of the dependencies for you - but I am not connected to the internet at home so these packages are useless.
Then perhaps you should have done more research and selecteda distrobution that installs a lot of stuff from the start and then you won't need the internet as much.

Knoppix has a lot of stuff come with it and if your work doesn't mind you using a bit of their bandwidth, Debian has a 2 DVD set that is full of packages. It uses apt-get for package management. It works out your dependencies and stuff for you and if you point it to the CD drive rather than the internet, it'll just grab the packages from whatever DVD it needs and install stuff that way.

Linux is different from Windows but that isn't what trips up the convert so much. It's the lack of research or assumptions made that cause the problems. Hey look, I just made a little rant too! Anybody can do it....
 
Old 10-26-2005, 04:28 AM   #9
imsomehalf
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cs-cam,

Try not to be so patronising.

Programs shoud be distributed with their dependencies. Its like being sold a bike without the wheels, brakes or gears - never mind the pedals. It just doesnt make sense. If I can go online to get these additional dependencies - that means they are freely available. Why cant the program makers just package them all up?

I understand that the distributions might have their hands tied, and that is why they dont have all these additional "niceties" but it doesnt get away from the fact that freely available means that if I can get them - why cant software makers?

RedHat EL 4.1 is the same as CentOS 4.1 isnt it? Is there somewhere you can point me to that I can download all multimedia packages with the insurance that they wont clash and cause instability.

I really, ultimately want to become very proficient with Linux. I know some people will smile when I say this but - I want to be able to administer Linux through DHCP, APACHE (LAMP config), DNS etc. I guess I have a long long long long way to go. I can install this stuff no problem - my gripe is having to get a million packages to only use one - even though the one Im using actually uses other behind the scenes.
 
Old 10-26-2005, 04:43 AM   #10
cs-cam
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Quote:
Programs shoud be distributed with their dependencies.
No they shouldn't, that's where you're not getting the picture. Okay, this is just random guessing but it's idea that I'm after. XMMS needs taglib installed so it can read the ID3 tags in MP3 files. Super, lets distribute that with XMMS so nobody gets confused here. Now I want to install MPD because it handles my pretty big MP3 collection better, I don't need to browse all the way down the one playlist to find the song I want. MPD depends on taglib as well. Oh well, now I have two versions of taglib installed.

Short and sweet example but the story juice is this. Linux has been the way it is for years, 99% of people are happy. Some people whinged about dependency hell so package managers got a little upgrade. Now most handle deps for you which is neato. XMMS won't come shipped with taglib any time soon and you having a whinge won't change that. You'd be far better off looking for a new way to tackle the problem rather than coming here and posting a rant about how linux isn't like Windows, there are plenty of those around, show us something new.

Now I haven't used a Redhat-based distro for a long while so I'm not quite sure about the CLI syntax for yum but give this a try. Go home and type in yum --help and read all the options. Look for verbose, probably -v but it's nice to check. Now type yum -v mplayer or whatever the command is to install mplayer with verbose output. In this situation, most package managers will spew out a detailed list of everything it is going to install. Sure, it'll fail cause you have no internet connection but ha! Now you should have a list of everything you need to download at work. Spit, rinse and repeat.
 
Old 10-26-2005, 04:58 AM   #11
tkedwards
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Quote:
Programs shoud be distributed with their dependencies. Its like being sold a bike without the wheels, brakes or gears - never mind the pedals. It just doesnt make sense. If I can go online to get these additional dependencies - that means they are freely available. Why cant the program makers just package them all up?

I understand that the distributions might have their hands tied, and that is why they dont have all these additional "niceties" but it doesnt get away from the fact that freely available means that if I can get them - why cant software makers?
Programs are distributed with their dependencies - that's what a Linux 'distribution' is. Distro makers don't have their 'hands tied' at all when it comes to open source software - they distribute their software repositories on CDs and DVDs. Your whole complaint is that the distro you chose (Centos) doesn't have enough software on the CDs. All of these extra repositories with multimedia software are just HTTP or FTP sites - just browse to them in your browser and download what you need. Or just download the entire repo using whatever internet connection you used to download centos originally.

Quote:
RedHat EL 4.1 is the same as CentOS 4.1 isnt it? Is there somewhere you can point me to that I can download all multimedia packages with the insurance that they wont clash and cause instability.
Well that's just it, Centos is not a desktop distribution. RHEL/Centos is a server-focused distro and doesn't really include any worthwhile multimedia components by default. Go and look at the list of packages on the Centos website and on your CDs - these are the set of packages that have been certified (in RHEL) and tested to make sure they work together.
 
Old 10-26-2005, 05:10 AM   #12
reddazz
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On this issue I agree with cs-cam, if you don't have a net connection then use a distro that has all the packages you need. There are many Redhat based distros that come with multimedia apps by default so you can use one of those. Redhat will never include multimedia packages that are likely to cause it to get sued and another thing RHEL is mainly a server distro so you will find that very few packagers provide extra packages for it. As for whether Linux distros whould ship with all the dependencies you need, if XMMS not included in Redhat than why should they include dependencies for a package they don't support. Linux and Unix make extensive use of shared libraries and packages so one library or package can be installed and then used by a lot of other packages using this mechanism. This prevents each package from shipping with its own version of a certain library which causes package conflicts and also prevents unnecessarily big binaries. Windows just overwrites libraries and files that belong to other packages and this can cause problems in certain packages. If Linux does not meet your needs and you feel that Windows is better then maybe you are better off using Windows because each fulfills a certain role and has its place in the computing world.
 
Old 10-26-2005, 05:40 AM   #13
imsomehalf
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Quote:
why cant they just be packaged with the original program? Surely the installation mechanism can determine if the dependency packages are older or newer than the systems current packages and make the decision - whether by asking the user, or automatically - to install them or not.

I asked this earlier. cs- you mentioned that XMMS uses a package that something else would also require. Thats totally fine. I understand that. Why cant the installation mechanism just ask the user what he/she wants to do when it encounters this situation. If a certain dependency package that is being shipped with the main program is already installed - check to see what version it is and make a decision whether to uninstall the current version and install the newer one, or leave the current version because it is the more up-to-date version.


That way the programs could be distributed with their dependencies and this whole mess wouldnt occur.


I need a server based distribution because of the web programming that I'll be doing.

I dont think you guys understand what I'm saying.
 
Old 10-26-2005, 09:43 AM   #14
cs-cam
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I dont think you guys understand what I'm saying.
We do. We get people with similar complaints on a weekly basis around here. That isn't how linux works. Stuff isn't bundled together, it is seperated. If you want stuff bundled together then use Windows.
Quote:
I need a server based distribution because of the web programming that I'll be doing.
Now, I used to do web development so let me take a shot at this. Apache/PHP/MySQL runs fantastically on Windows. If you insist on a linux answer to the question you don't have then let me straighten something up for you. Any linux program will install on any distrobution. That means if you want to run server apps then you don't need CentOS, Mandriva or Suse or Debian or any other distrobution will work great. All linux distrobutions are essentially the same OS, just bundled differently.

But back to CentOS, did you try that yum trick I suggested? Maybe someone with CentOS or Fedora installed could check for me and find out the exact command to use, that would be helpful
 
Old 10-26-2005, 09:58 AM   #15
Dtsazza
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In answer to your question, which is (correct me if I'm wrong) "OK, so why can't these libraries be included with the standard download?"

One major is simply to avoid superfluity. Some common libraries will be used in many, many pieces of software - and likewise, some pieces of software will use many, many libraries to do their job. If all the libraries that something could possibly use were bundled with every version of that software, its size (and thus download time, etc) could be many times larger than need be. Besides, libraries are just that - you can get them individually, and once you've got them, you've got them - and they can be updated independently, etc.

What you're asking (why can't the download include the libraries) is a very thin line from what is often the case nowadays (you go to the download page, and have one link for the main source/binaries, and others for dependencies). As far as I'm concerned, downloading two 3MB files is very little difference to downloading one 6MB file - so long as both of the 3MB links are within easy reach of each other. What it really comes down to, if you're not happy with the situation, is that the people who host the programs aren't specifying their dependencies clearly enough. They don't need to package the libraries in with the main binary - if they say "You'll need the foowidget library if you don't have it already, you can get it from here" then that's surely good enough? I'd certainly prefer that than being forced to download the same code over and over again, at any rate.

And - if you don't like the whole caboodle, then (as has been stated rather a lot so far) that's where package managers come in. And they do work from local, optical disc sources.
 
  


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