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Old 09-04-2011, 06:04 AM   #16
cascade9
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The 1st of the 'coppermine' celerons was the 533A, not 500. (though there was engineering samples of a coppermine 500A around, intel never released it). There was also a 'mendocino' 533 as well (the 'non-a' model). For P3, coppermine started at 500MHz, but 'Katmai' ran 450-600MHz so there is quite a bit of crossover.

Coppermine actually used aluminium interconnects, though the name does suggest it used copper. The reason why the coopermine CPUs ran cooler than mendocino was reduced process size (180nm vs 250nm) and voltage (1.5-1.75v vs 2.0v).

There were 11.something watt coppermine celerons, but I've never seen one. The 11.something watt models were almost all 'late model' coppermines that used 1.5v, not the 1.7v of normal coppermine CPUs.

Intel either has taken down the 533A listing, or it was never there, all they have for a 533 is the 'mendocino' version. But 566 is up-

http://ark.intel.com/products/27190

Max TDP- 19.2 watts. IIRC the 533A 1.7v version was about 15watts TDP.

Coppermine CPUs dont 'down clock'. If they overheat, they force the CPU into an idle state untill the CPU cools, or the CPU hits critical temp and shuts down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bholland2 View Post
They came with CPU and heat sink from Intel with instructions pointing out that nothing else was needed.
That I'd like to see.

I've rebuilt a fair few celerons in the 533MHz-1.1GHz range, and they all had thermal paste. I've never owned a new one myself, or even built a celeron from new for somebody else in that speed range- I mostly told people to just pay up and get a P3/athlon, or get a duron.
 
Old 09-04-2011, 09:02 AM   #17
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The most effective thermal paste uses finely-ground industrial diamond instead of metal - surprisingly, not terribly expensive. I found 3 different brands available. Only if you're overclocking are you likely to need it, though. Surfaces need to be perfectly flat for it, too; cheap aluminum heatsinks might need to be lapped.
 
Old 09-04-2011, 09:24 AM   #18
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Thermal Paste

I had replied to the original poster earlier, but I am responding to some of the other posters generally.

Golden rule of paste, CPU and cooler in today's systems and also not so new, disturb the cooler then do the job over. As some have indicated and I indicated, the paste fill voids, so when you disturb it, voids can and are created. Even the modern Celerons run hot and can reach temperatures of 200 degrees with no cooler. At one time tom's Hardware were doing this, producing videos of CPU's running with no coolers to see the time taken for failure, most cases less than 30 seconds.

It's not a good idea to leave old surface mats, or silver pad coolers in place and also use paste on top of them. It will raise the heat coefficient. They were not designed to work together. As one poster said less is more. Remove and clean the surfaces to a shine. Arctic produce two bottles of chemicals to help, the first to remove any and all materials and the second as a surface purifier (one could substitute this one with Isopropyl Alcohol, as others have said).

Thermal paste has NO metals in them even though they say "Silver" etc. There are exposed components and circuit lands on the top of CPU's, could you imagine if any paste was electrically conductive, especially with one using a heavy hand and it came into contact with these surface components. Silica's and other non electrical but thermally conductive materials are used.
 
Old 09-04-2011, 10:50 AM   #19
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My CPU uses Intel's Integrated Heat Spreader, and this is plain metal, on top of which goes the cooler.
 
Old 09-04-2011, 04:40 PM   #20
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Hi STF92

Yes, but this is bonded to the CPU in the Intel manufacturing process, with heat transfer materials. They use a glue type instead of a paste. Same action different process. Arctic also make this type with a Silica bonding agent that glues itself to the CPU cap and heatsink.

Cheers
 
Old 09-04-2011, 08:05 PM   #21
cascade9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenknight32 View Post
The most effective thermal paste uses finely-ground industrial diamond instead of metal - surprisingly, not terribly expensive. I found 3 different brands available. Only if you're overclocking are you likely to need it, though. Surfaces need to be perfectly flat for it, too; cheap aluminum heatsinks might need to be lapped.
Hmmm, I hadnt heard that there was diamond based thermal grease. I'd doubt that even 'overclockers' would need it, and I dont think it would make a huge difference vs silver based thermal grease, but I'm going to see if I can dig up and thermal testing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwbottle View Post
Even the modern Celerons run hot and can reach temperatures of 200 degrees with no cooler.
You might be able to get 200 F with no cooler (with modern CPUs), and have the CPU survive. 200 C, no chance, any x86 CU will be dead far before that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwbottle View Post
At one time tom's Hardware were doing this, producing videos of CPU's running with no coolers to see the time taken for failure, most cases less than 30 seconds.
The main time that toms was doing that is back in the P3/athlon days. Its still brought up by some people as 'proof' of toms bias.

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwbottle View Post
Thermal paste has NO metals in them even though they say "Silver" etc. There are exposed components and circuit lands on the top of CPU's, could you imagine if any paste was electrically conductive, especially with one using a heavy hand and it came into contact with these surface components. Silica's and other non electrical but thermally conductive materials are used.
Umm....atric silver, and at least some of the other silver based thermal grease does contain silver-

Quote:
Made With 99.9% Pure Silver:
Arctic Silver 5 uses three unique shapes and sizes of pure silver particles to maximize particle-to-particle contact area and thermal transfer.

High-Density:
Arctic Silver 5 contains over 88% thermally conductive filler by weight. In addition to micronized silver, Arctic Silver 5 also contains sub-micron zinc oxide, aluminum oxide and boron nitride particles. These thermally-enhanced ceramic particles improve the compound's performance and long-term stability

Not Electrically Conductive:
Arctic Silver 5 was formulated to conduct heat, not electricity.
(While much safer than electrically conductive silver and copper greases, Arctic Silver 5 should be kept away from electrical traces, pins, and leads. While it is not electrically conductive, the compound is very slightly capacitive and could potentially cause problems if it bridges two close-proximity electrical paths.)
AFAIK even though the artic silver site says 'not electrically conductive' it is a little conductive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwbottle View Post
Yes, but this is bonded to the CPU in the Intel manufacturing process, with heat transfer materials. They use a glue type instead of a paste. Same action different process. Arctic also make this type with a Silica bonding agent that glues itself to the CPU cap and heatsink.
IHS (intergrated heat spreaders) can be soldered (sometimes called 'glued') or use TIM/thermal grease-

http://www.overclock.net/intel-cpus/...-should-i.html

I've never checked to see if the tualatins all had TIM/thermal paste between he core and the IHS, and they arent listed on the above link (mainly because tullys ran fairly cool and didnt have a huge amount of overclocking headroom) but I know at least some did-

Quote:
Well that Tualatin I mentioned that I'd glued the HS onto with Zalman epxoy?
I ran a razor blade around the IHS and eased it off, it came away no
trouble. One thing I found interesting, there was quite a gap between the
core and the IHS, filled with thermal compound. Probably 2mm or more. That
can't be good for heat-transfer.
http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/tua...-t2015230.html

I've seen similar scattered reports over the years.
 
Old 09-04-2011, 11:51 PM   #22
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Odd, diamonds have a high R value and would be poor conductors of heat. I knew the Russians had a very large project to get diamond based chips as they would have been many ways better than silicon. Either they figured it out and kept it a secret or they failed.


MSDS sheets prove that metals are in the compounds. Just do a web search for msds and your brand.
 
Old 09-05-2011, 04:13 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefro View Post
Odd, diamonds have a high R value and would be poor conductors of heat. I knew the Russians had a very large project to get diamond based chips as they would have been many ways better than silicon. Either they figured it out and kept it a secret or they failed.
I don't know where you got the idea diamond has a high R value - diamond is an excellent conductor of heat, but it doesn't conduct electricity. This makes it ideal for thermal compound. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity.

I have seen many independent tests which found a significant drop in CPU temps when diamond compound was used, for instance http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/70028/.
 
Old 09-05-2011, 01:07 PM   #24
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Cascade9

I've seen tests with video posted on the web, and are still available on archive sites, not just Tom's but Anandtech, Overclockers etc, where high end Celerons and Pentium P4's as well as AMD Durons and Athlons reach temps of 370 degrees centigrade, tested with laser temp gauges, before destruction. So don't underate the strength of the old and new CPU's before destruction. The biggest problem with heat, and the hotter the CPU gets it get's worse, is silicon migration, a known natural and scientific phenomena of Silica, so the lands and tracks etched microscopically on the die break down. And yes it is progressive, so too much heat today does it's damage, then more tomorrow does more, as many overclockers will testify, it does "wear the processor out".

And I don't trust manufacturers that advertise metals in their compounds, as your last posted extract indicates from Arctic, it can and does do damage, doesn't matter if it is electrical conductance or capacitance, the result is the same a very expensive paperweight if one is not very careful. As a good friend of mine who thought he could do better than me, thinking he was a technician, discovered. Three CPU's later and a budget of $600 down the drain due to him pasting the entire top surface of the CPU, no RTFM, and only then did he listen to me and let me do it. Now a year later his system is stable and still running. A good saying I tell all of my students and junior technicians while in their early days learning, and to many other PEBKAC's (Problem Exists between Keyboard And Chair) "Six mumfs ago I are could not spiell technician now I are one". Spelling meant to be as is.

To the diamond posters

Diamond as a thermal conductor sounds logical, it is after all compressed carbon, without the carbon electrical conductive properties, probably lost in the transmogrification from carbon to the substance we now know. They are used in amplifying lasers as they transmit the heat and light efficiently, amongst other things, so very feasible.

To Jefro

High R value has to do with electrical conductivity (or actually it's electrical resistance as in Ohms) and in that you are right, a diamond is an excellent electrical insulator, diamond powder is used in very high temp heating elements, keeping the centre conductor insulated from the outer sheath, much like in your oven/stove elements. They use them in combination with gas for smelting foundries. This allows for shaping and bending the "rod" into convenient shapes, while not failing and touching on the "bends", causing shorts, as well as a high tolerance to furnace temperatures. But the R factor cannot be used for the measurement of thermal conductance, this is a totally different factor in the law of measures.

Regards

Last edited by screwbottle; 09-05-2011 at 01:36 PM.
 
Old 09-05-2011, 08:46 PM   #25
cascade9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by screwbottle View Post
I've seen tests with video posted on the web, and are still available on archive sites, not just Tom's but Anandtech, Overclockers etc, where high end Celerons and Pentium P4's as well as AMD Durons and Athlons reach temps of 370 degrees centigrade, tested with laser temp gauges, before destruction. So don't underate the strength of the old and new CPU's before destruction.
Your talking about this old video-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf0Vu...eature=related

Yeah, I'm well aware of it (sorry about the quality, but I didnt feel like looking around for ages to see if there is a better copy up somewhere). Notice that the magic smoke is out well before they put the laser temp gauge onto the CPU core? That CPU is dead already. Its just still got current running through it, so the temps keep rising.

The reason why the AMDs died is because at that point AMD didnt have good thermal protection (they only got that sorted with the athlon 64s). I've never seen anything with decent thermal protection get to anything like 370 C.

If you've got a link to any modern CPU hitting 370C, or even 200C, I'd like to see it.

BTW, whats with the story change? 1st you say this-

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwbottle View Post
Thermal paste has NO metals in them even though they say "Silver" etc. There are exposed components and circuit lands on the top of CPU's, could you imagine if any paste was electrically conductive, especially with one using a heavy hand and it came into contact with these surface components. Silica's and other non electrical but thermally conductive materials are used.
Now its-

Quote:
Originally Posted by screwbottle View Post
And I don't trust manufacturers that advertise metals in their compounds, as your last posted extract indicates from Arctic, it can and does do damage, doesn't matter if it is electrical conductance or capacitance, the result is the same a very expensive paperweight if one is not very careful.
I dont really get why you said 'no metals in them' now its 'I dont trust manufacturers that advertise metals'....

I've been using artic silver for over 10 years now, on more systems than I can count, and I have never had it cause any problems. Ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenknight32 View Post
I have seen many independent tests which found a significant drop in CPU temps when diamond compound was used, for instance http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/70028/.
From what I've seen since I started looking, I'd call the figures in that link 'extreme', to the point where I think that the poster has possibly made a serious mistake with the AS5.

I have seen reports of similar drops in temp with ICD7, but only vs very cheap and nasty thermal grease. Most of the time ICD7 temps seen to be within 1-4 C of the AS5. I would say that the ICD7 is in most cases better than AS5, but I'm not sure its worth the trouble- it likes high clamping pressures, its hard to apply, gets its best results with high heat levels, and its expensive.

Oddly, it seems to be a similar in temp drop to the 'Liquid Metal Pro' thermal 'grease'-

http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages..._review,1.html

Now that is dangerous, though I've seen it used, and its probably fairly safe if you know what your doing.

Last edited by cascade9; 09-05-2011 at 10:23 PM.
 
Old 09-05-2011, 10:02 PM   #26
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Opps. Insulator of electricity not thermal.
 
Old 09-06-2011, 06:40 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascade9 View Post
From what I've seen since I started looking, I'd call the figures in that link 'extreme', to the point where I think that the poster has possibly made a serious mistake with the AS5.

I have seen reports of similar drops in temp with ICD7, but only vs very cheap and nasty thermal grease. Most of the time ICD7 temps seen to be within 1-4 C of the AS5. I would say that the ICD7 is in most cases better than AS5, but I'm not sure its worth the trouble- it likes high clamping pressures, its hard to apply, gets its best results with high heat levels, and its expensive.

Oddly, it seems to be a similar in temp drop to the 'Liquid Metal Pro' thermal 'grease'-

http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages..._review,1.html

Now that is dangerous, though I've seen it used, and its probably fairly safe if you know what your doing.
Yes, that guy's results were way on the high end. IC's own figures, derived by averaging user reports, give 5-7 C as the average improvement - probably most were switching from cheap "stock" thermal grease.

Don't know how hard it is to apply ICD, I've never used it. The recommended method is to put a pea-sized bead in the center of the die, then clamp down the heatsink. Since it's said to be very thick, I can see where there might be a problem if the clamping pressure wasn't high enough. At least there's no worries about excess damaging electronic components, since it's electrically non-conductive and non-capacitive. The new stuff from Antec come with a little spreader, sounds like it's too thick to apply without it.

I don't think the cost is that significant if you've got a expensive CPU. I'm running a Duron 1200 "pull" I bought for $11.00 + shipping, so for me it would be a little bit excessive.
 
Old 09-06-2011, 06:55 AM   #28
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Does anyone else polish their cooler? I regularly polish mine up to a mirror finish, and the CPU too if it's an Athlon 64 or P4 with the metal piece over the chip. Seems to help a load.
 
Old 09-07-2011, 03:52 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenknight32 View Post
Yes, that guy's results were way on the high end. IC's own figures, derived by averaging user reports, give 5-7 C as the average improvement - probably most were switching from cheap "stock" thermal grease.
From the figures I've seen, I'd say that it would be about 1-3C cooler with ICD7 vs AS5. Compared to the newer AS (like MX-2 or MX-3) is probably more like 0-2C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenknight32 View Post
Don't know how hard it is to apply ICD, I've never used it. The recommended method is to put a pea-sized bead in the center of the die, then clamp down the heatsink. Since it's said to be very thick, I can see where there might be a problem if the clamping pressure wasn't high enough. At least there's no worries about excess damaging electronic components, since it's electrically non-conductive and non-capacitive. The new stuff from Antec come with a little spreader, sounds like it's too thick to apply without it.
I've seen somebody who I assume was trying to import and resell ICD7 here suggest that you should apply a line then twist. Also suggesting that if you heat the ICD7 in hot water it will be easier to apply, though its going to cool pretty quickly.

The clamping presure its a huge problem in most cases, the main people who seemed to be having issues were those with LGA 775 'push pin' coolers (they have pretty clamping pressure)

I'm not at all worried about the minor conductive and capacitive issues with the silver based thermal grease, so I'll keep using it till I run out. The newer AS variants are non-conductive and non-capacitive anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenknight32 View Post
I don't think the cost is that significant if you've got a expensive CPU.
You're right, its not really. Still, it is compared to the other good thermal greases around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe of Loath View Post
Does anyone else polish their cooler? I regularly polish mine up to a mirror finish, and the CPU too if it's an Athlon 64 or P4 with the metal piece over the chip. Seems to help a load.
I've lapped a lot of coolers, mostly because they didnt have a totally flat base or had machining marks. I never bother with going to a mirror polish....it takes a lot longer, and I dont like moving a heatsink around on a bit of glass with 1000-1600 grit wet and dry taped to the surface.

I've never lapped a heatspreader, I'm more likely to just remove it.
 
  


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