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Old 07-05-2012, 03:38 PM   #1
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Novatech Barebone Bundle, anyone see any problems?


I hate asking open ended questions like this but my PC has died and I'm looking to buy a replacement.
I'm going for barebone rather than build from scratch because I want to replace it fairly quickly and matching CPUs, motherboards fans and cases plus building the thing would take me ages and while I'm haply to slot boards in fitting a CPU and heatsink is something I'm sure I'd get wrong.
So I am asking if anyone sees anything wrong with this bundle:
http://www.novatech.co.uk/products/b...bb-81208e.html
I'll add 8GB more RAM and an NVIDIA card, probably costing around 100GBP. I'll also likely buy an SSD of around 60GB for the OS and will be connecting my old RAIDed home partition until I work out what else to do.
I chose the "8" core CPU on the understanding that Virtualbox will be able to use the cores so if I have 3 or 4 VMs running I should see no problems with running other applications also.
Is there anything wrong with this, anything not usable under Linux, anything good? Should I bite the bullet and assemble it all myself?

I use my current PC for playing video and audio, running VMs in Virtualbox, lots of web stuff with Flash also, playing Second Life and general email and office type tasks. I'd hope to be able to run UT2004 whilst hosting a website or two in a VM and watching a video.

Last edited by 273; 07-05-2012 at 03:46 PM.
 
Old 07-06-2012, 07:24 AM   #2
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I wouldnt touch that bundle.

The price is fairly lame (you can get that CPU for 120 quid, motherboard for 50, and 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333 for 30).

Its using a 'company branded' power supply, which in my experience is cheap 'yum cha' junk with a different sticker to the usual.

AMD bulldozer will use DDR3 1600/1866 (depending on how many RAM sticks you have installed) using DDR3 1333 is crippling the memory bandwidth (yeah, sure, its not gouing to make a huge difference but when DDR3-1600 is just as cheap, why get DDR3-1333?)

I'd probably take a GA-970A-UD3 over the 970A-DS3. The UD3 has slightly better voltage controls, better heatsinks, and has internal headers for USB 3.0.

Building a system isnt for everyone. If you can buy and assemble lego and have it look like it does on the packet (without 'extra' 'leftover' pieces) you should be able to assemble a desktop computer.
 
Old 07-06-2012, 07:39 AM   #3
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Thanks, I'd realised the motherboard was a bit "cheap and cheerful" but I didn't see anything I couldn't live with. I didn't realise about the memory though and you make a good point -- I'm not a person who must have the fastest but I agree that using slower RAM is silly.
The PSU issue I understand, it was the only thing I thought I may want to update at a later date, especially if I felt rich enough to play with more than one graphics card.
Looks like I should face my fears then and build my own from scratch. Am I right in thinking that what I need is:
Case
PSU
Motherboard
CPU
Heatsink
Heat paste
RAM (thinking of 4*4GB)
Video card (may reuse my 9800GTX)
HDDs (probably just a small SSD for boot and reuse what I have for now)

Am I missing anything obvious here?
 
Old 07-06-2012, 10:13 AM   #4
cascade9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Thanks, I'd realised the motherboard was a bit "cheap and cheerful" but I didn't see anything I couldn't live with. I didn't realise about the memory though and you make a good point -- I'm not a person who must have the fastest but I agree that using slower RAM is silly.
Its not a huge difference, but its there.

A lot of the 'bundles' you see at stores are "what stuff have we ordered too much of- OK, motherboard 'XXXX' and CPU 'YYYY'....and we've got a whole bunch of DR3-1333 that isnt selling thanks to prices on DDR3-1600, so lets chuck that in as well".

Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
The PSU issue I understand, it was the only thing I thought I may want to update at a later date, especially if I felt rich enough to play with more than one graphics card.
Even 550-600watts should be enough to run some SLI/crossfire. You wont be running 2 x top of the line gamers cards, but 2 x lower end cards (eg crossfire 2 x AMD 6670 or SLI 2 x GT 640) is possible. Not that it would be worth it IMO (apart from if you already have one recent SLI/crossfire capable card, and even then its not worth it for the expense and extra trouble of crossfire/SLI)

BTW, the gigabyte 970 chipset boards will only run ATI/AMD crossfire, not nVidia SLI. To have SLI as an option would mean getting a more expensive 990X/990FX board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Looks like I should face my fears then and build my own from scratch.
Its not that hard, but if you can its always nice to get some older system. Rebuild that to get used to how things fit togther and get a bit more confidence.

Of course, you wont have to do that, but its always easier (and less stressful!) to tear down and rebuild a system you dont care about, rather than nice new shiny hardware.

Theres a few stores here with good prices that will build the system for a small fee. I imagine that it would be the same in the UK, just I dont know the 'right' stores, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Am I right in thinking that what I need is:
Case
PSU
Motherboard
CPU
Heatsink
Heat paste
RAM (thinking of 4*4GB)
Video card (may reuse my 9800GTX)
HDDs (probably just a small SSD for boot and reuse what I have for now)

Am I missing anything obvious here?
No, unless you want an optical (CD/DVD-blu ray) drive.

You wont _need_ a heatsink, or thermal paste. AMD/Intel 'retail' CPUs coem with heatsinks (not that good heatsinks, but good enough to work). Thermal paste is always preapplied on the bottom of 'stock' AMD and intel heatsinks. Handy to have for rebuilding though, and decent thermal paste applied correctly is better than the stock goop AMD/intel uses.

GTX 9800 would work just fine. If you dont game, a new card might be worth it (lower power consumption with the same desktop preformance). Its probably also not that bad an idea if you watch a lot of media (VDPAU features on a $30-40 G210 card is better than the old 9800 GTX).
 
Old 07-06-2012, 10:33 AM   #5
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Thanks.
I've taken the plunge and ordered the UD3, a Bulldozer, 4*4GB of 1866(I know it'll likelt run slower but there wasn't much in the price over 1600), a decent PSU and fairly cheap case. Also decided on a new graphics card for the reasons you mentioned.
Optical drive wise I'll leave it for now. I'm used to USB installs so hardly use the optical drive.
Thanks again both, now I just have to build the thing when it comes.
 
Old 07-06-2012, 11:19 AM   #6
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Yeah, if you do USB installs and dont use the optical drive, its pointless to get one.

Even if you cant run at DDR3-1866 with 4 RAM sticks without overclocking the RAM, I'd have got it as well (depening on price). Even if you dont want to overclock to 1866, you might be able to drop the RAM latencies a little.

just out of intrest, which video card did you get?
 
Old 07-06-2012, 11:29 AM   #7
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I went for the ASUS NVIDIA GT640 2GB. Not the best I know but looks adequate.

Last edited by 273; 07-06-2012 at 11:30 AM.
 
Old 07-06-2012, 11:48 AM   #8
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Expensive for a 'desktop/HTPC' card, and they suck about twice as much power as the lower end cards (depending on the model.....please, nVidia, stop this stupid '4 cards with one name' BS...).

Still, its the fastest of them, so if you want to game its probably the best of the desktop nVidia cards. If you dont game, a GT 520 or even G210 might have been a better choice.

I dont know if nouveau even supports the GT 640 yet. It does support the GT 545 which is what one version of the GT 640 is based on (GF116 core). The asus GT 640 is actually a GT 640 DDR3 mdoel (GK107 core).......

It should work with the closed nVidia drivers. Unless nVidia has made some major mistake with its listing of supported drivers for the GT640, its only supported by 2 current drivers- 295.53 and 295.59.
 
Old 07-06-2012, 12:05 PM   #9
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I thought since I was buying a new card I'd get something that should let me game if I want to. Either way it ought to be less power hungry than the monster 9800GTX and hopefully quieter too, should even outperform it?
I used the closed-source drivers from the repositories on my old system but before that I had installed them manually using NVIDIAs installer so I'm at least prepared if there's some initial frustration. The only thing that worries me about choosing NVIDIA is no support for Wayland but hopefully by the time Sid uses that things will have been worked out.
 
Old 07-06-2012, 12:12 PM   #10
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LOL,. its a HUGE amount less power hungry than the 9800 GTX.

9800 GTX- 140 watts TDP.

GT 640 (DDR3/900MHz core)- 65 watts TDP.

As for how well the GT 640 does vs the 9800 GTX, thats pretty hard to guage. I'd say that the GT 640 would be faster at lower resolutions and low AA/AF. At higher resolutions and high AA/AF, the 9800 GTX could be faster.

*edit- I'd doubt that sid is going to use wayland anytime soon. I wouldnt worry about it, its vapourware.

Last edited by cascade9; 07-06-2012 at 12:14 PM.
 
Old 07-06-2012, 12:24 PM   #11
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You can tell just by looking at the two power connectors that the 9800 is power hungry. If I get similar performance out of the 640 I'll be pleased -- I'll be running a 1920*1200 and a 1280*1024 off it so I'll not be expecting anything staggering.
I was running a 7300 (not sure what) to run the smaller monitor as it seemed to give slightly higher framerates and reduce any tearing. Sounds silly I know but it did seem to work.
Now I just want the one card though to cut down on config and be more sensible.

It's the "8" core CPU I'm looking forward to and all that RAM. I might actually be able to give Windows 8 consumer preview a try in a VM and XP, when needed, will fly. Really looking forward to being able to have a few VMS on the go at a time too, and be able to leave them running but still do other things.

Didn't really want to have to buy a PC right now but at least It's an excuse for an upgrade. Though I might be posting backe here on Monday or Tuesday crying I've bent my CPU pins or let it run without the fan connected...
 
Old 07-06-2012, 12:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
You can tell just by looking at the two power connectors that the 9800 is power hungry. If I get similar performance out of the 640 I'll be pleased -- I'll be running a 1920*1200 and a 1280*1024 off it so I'll not be expecting anything staggering.
I was running a 7300 (not sure what) to run the smaller monitor as it seemed to give slightly higher framerates and reduce any tearing. Sounds silly I know but it did seem to work.
Odd, a 9800 GTX should beat several different colours of hell out of a 7300.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
It's the "8" core CPU I'm looking forward to and all that RAM. I might actually be able to give Windows 8 consumer preview a try in a VM and XP, when needed, will fly. Really looking forward to being able to have a few VMS on the go at a time too, and be able to leave them running but still do other things.
Well, bad news, its not exactly a 8 core CPU. There are 2 'cores' per bulldzoer 'module', but they arent full cores.

A full core would have a fetch, decode, interger and FPU (floating-point). Bulldozer modules have 1 x fetch, 1 x decode, 1x FPU and 2 x interger units.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Though I might be posting backe here on Monday or Tuesday crying I've bent my CPU pins or let it run without the fan connected...
I reckon you'll be fine with the pins. installation is easy, as long as you dont try to bruteforce something (the CPU should slpi easily into the socket, if it doesnt its in the wrong orentation).

Running without the heatsink fan conencted...not good. But shouldnt be deadly, the CPU should shutdown when it reaches temprature X (I forget the exact shutdown temp with bulldozer chips).
 
Old 07-06-2012, 12:55 PM   #13
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I found that using one card per monitor gave less tearing when I had something like Second Life or Google Earth opened on one while a video played on the other. Only marginally different but did seem to b, I'm willing to accept it might have been me going mad.

Yeah, I was aware of the cores, hence the quotes around the 8. Still a massive step up from the dual core I've been using and I would still hope up to running a couple of instances of XP and a headless Linux or BSD instance or two. Maybe I'm wrong but my understanding was if you've lots of applications which can be pushed to seperate cores you'll benefit from more cores and threading but if you just want one app, especially a game, running fast you're better off with more clock speed (put simply of course)?
 
Old 07-06-2012, 01:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
I found that using one card per monitor gave less tearing when I had something like Second Life or Google Earth opened on one while a video played on the other. Only marginally different but did seem to b, I'm willing to accept it might have been me going mad.
That sounds a bit more likely. Still, odd, but its not a problem anymore, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Still a massive step up from the dual core I've been using and I would still hope up to running a couple of instances of XP and a headless Linux or BSD instance or two.
Its going to be a big step up from a dual-core.

I dont know how many instances of XP and Linux/BSD you would be abel to run, I rarely play with VMs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Maybe I'm wrong but my understanding was if you've lots of applications which can be pushed to seperate cores you'll benefit from more cores and threading but if you just want one app, especially a game, running fast you're better off with more clock speed (put simply of course)?
Sort of.

For single threaded programs, increasing the clock speed tends to give much bigger results than increasing cores. However, clock speed is not the only thing that impacts- CPU cache, fast RAM, fast HDD system can also make big differences.

As more and more programs become multithreaded, it matters less and less.

BTW, even multithreaded programs in many cases have a maximum number of cores they can use. Which is one reason why server chips are avaible with huge numbers of cores, and desktops are limited to 4/6 cores (intel) or 4/6 cores 4 bulldozer modules (AMD). They could build desktop CPUs with more cores, but decreasing preformance increases for desktop use makes more than 4-8 cores pretty pointless.
 
Old 07-06-2012, 01:42 PM   #15
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I was running two cards right up u til it died. It may have been something which changed with X or driver updates but I stopped playing around and just left two cards in there.
I couldn't really have even two VMs with graphical interfaces open without a performance hit amd Windows 8 wouldn't install. I tend to play with VMs whilst web browsing or watching video so I'm expecting to make use of all the cores, making me think it ought to be a better choice than an i5 even though it's poor compared to the i7. I want to set up VMs so I can play with things like firewalls, proxies, samba, DNS, web servers and the like.
 
  


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