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Old 04-09-2014, 12:02 PM   #16
Soadyheid
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Oh Dear what a shame, I've just bought one because Asus had a greater number of Linux compatible Mobos than any other manufacturer.

Play Bonny!



(So far, very happy with it! )
 
Old 04-09-2014, 12:33 PM   #17
jlinkels
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There is a lot of fuss about power supplies, PSU maximum rating and power consumption.

The 250W is maximum output.
If you don't draw output power you don't draw input power. Except for a small amount of quiescent power. I mean a small amount, a few Watts or not even that.

If you draw output power, you draw input power. Multiplied with the efficiency. So if you PSU efficiency is 90% (which usually is higher), Input power is 111W if Output power is 100W.

With the components that you have, Output power is far less than 250W. Check the power consumption for each component. Your hard disk is extremely low at 4W!

If your system draws maximum output power, and the output power is less that 250W, your PSU is adequate. Period.

A higher power rating on you PSU doesn't make it "more adequate".

The PSU that you use is not mainstream and more expensive than your ordinary 300W/240V PSU which sells for less than $25,-. In my experience, part of the price is also for extra quality. It simply meets or exceeds the specification.

jlinkels
 
Old 04-09-2014, 12:44 PM   #18
haertig
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In your first post, you didn't mention a graphics card, which implies you are using onboard video from the mobo. So your power supply needs should be minimal. Wattage-wise. Do not mistakenly think "high wattage" = "high quality". These are two separate and distinct traits to consider when buying a power supply. You always want high quality, but you do not always need high wattage.
 
Old 04-09-2014, 12:57 PM   #19
metaschima
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I used:
http://www.extreme.outervision.com/p...ulatorlite.jsp
To estimate the required power. Make sure to factor in 20-30% capacitor aging. With that 250W is just barely cutting it. 350W would have been a better choice. If you ever plan on getting a decent graphics card get 450W, more for a high-end graphics card.
 
Old 04-09-2014, 01:56 PM   #20
jlinkels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metaschima View Post
I used:
http://www.extreme.outervision.com/p...ulatorlite.jsp
To estimate the required power. Make sure to factor in 20-30% capacitor aging. With that 250W is just barely cutting it. 350W would have been a better choice. If you ever plan on getting a decent graphics card get 450W, more for a high-end graphics card.
Where does the wisdom come from that you have to reduce the power supply spec with that percentage for capacitor aging?
And where did you get the power consumption for this system for say, 200 Watts? The OP is using fairly low power components. Please be precise and mention each component.
jlinkels
 
Old 04-09-2014, 02:29 PM   #21
metaschima
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You have to increase the power supply spec to account for capacitor aging.
It doesn't list the power consumption for each component, but I guess you could look them up and calculate it manually.
 
Old 04-09-2014, 06:23 PM   #22
Emerson
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Quote:
If your system draws maximum output power, and the output power is less that 250W, your PSU is adequate. Period.
This is incorrect. If my box draws 10 A on 12 V rail and the PS cannot go over 8 A on 12 V then it is insufficient. This is just an example, but can easily happen with a 250 W PSU.
 
Old 04-09-2014, 07:37 PM   #23
jlinkels
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I can do arithmetic. Such a current distribution is highly unlikely. Unless your computer has a built-in coffee maker running at 12VDC.

Before you say again "this is incorrect" because a server might have 24 disks attached. Then it might draw 4A@5VDC and 36A@12VDC. Right. There is no substitute for careful design and planning for real equipment.

We are talking here about a low powered desktop computer. I follows more or less standard power distribution over the various voltage sources.

jlinkels

Last edited by jlinkels; 04-09-2014 at 07:41 PM.
 
Old 04-09-2014, 07:47 PM   #24
Emerson
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I said this is an example! You may exceed the max current on 5 V or 3.3 V or 12 V - and this has happened. FYI, I've been in computer business since 1991.
 
Old 04-09-2014, 07:53 PM   #25
Ser Olmy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
Put the cpu and ram on another motherboard powered with the psu, and they all work. So it's definitely the motherboard.
It usually is. In this case, I'm willing to bet it's the CPU voltage regulator. Any signs of leakage or bulging on the capacitors surrounding the CPU socket?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysses_ View Post
Too bad for an expensive motherboard that it died after just 1 year of use. Or maybe it is my fault? Psu output not quality enough?
It's possible, but the overcurrent protection in a modern PSU should kick in long before you'd see any ripple from the switch-mode circuitry.

On the other hand, if the PSU is old, the filter capacitors may be drying out. As the capacitors deteriorate, they will cause an increasingly larger ripple component to manifest itself in the output voltage when the PSU is under heavy load.

My money is still on low-quality VRM components being the cause of this failure, though.
 
Old 04-10-2014, 04:56 AM   #26
Soadyheid
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So... Would you guys go to the trouble of trying to source new Caps and replace the on a multilayer Mobo circuit board?

I agree they cause problems, we used to find that Sun Ultra 5 workstations which hung and did weird things invariably had caps with bulging bases. Their No.1 cause of failure. Never went to the trouble of trying to replace them though. We just replaced the board. OK, its a different thing when it's your Mobo. Has anybody has success in repairing one?
Just curious.

Play Bonny!

 
Old 04-10-2014, 08:37 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ser Olmy View Post
Any signs of leakage or bulging on the capacitors surrounding the CPU socket?
None.

Sent the mobo back to the shop, under its 3-year warranty. Tempted to buy a cheap $50 one as a backup motherboard for emergencies like this. What about replacing the psu and leaving the 250W dc-to-dc psu inside for caravan use only? Is it asking for trouble to unplug one psu and plug the other every couple of weeks when in the caravan?

Last edited by Ulysses_; 04-10-2014 at 06:59 PM.
 
Old 04-10-2014, 07:54 PM   #28
jlinkels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soadyheid View Post
So... Would you guys go to the trouble of trying to source new Caps and replace the on a multilayer Mobo circuit board?

Has anybody has success in repairing one?
Just curious.
Yes, I did. But it was not an easy job. Getting capacitors is not the problem, they are easy enough to find on-line. But desoldering the old ones on a multilayer board isn't easy. When I did it, that was a few generations mainboards ago. Larger components and hole-through. I am not sure nowadays you won't find SMD here and there. Which also can be replaced of course but it is not easier.

You can try it as an academic exercise. But be prepared for failure.

jlinkels
 
Old 04-12-2014, 02:35 PM   #29
replica9000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metaschima View Post
Check reviews before buying a new mobo. The quality of each manufacturer changes over time. So I mean while in the past I would buy ASUS mobos, today I wouldn't go near them.
I have a Sabertooth Z77, no issues. Many reviews shown the Maximus boards had capacitor issues.
 
Old 04-15-2014, 12:13 AM   #30
selfprogrammed
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I prefer quality PSU (EnerMax, Antec), but not high power PSU. Many calculate their power ratings in irrelevant ways to inflate the numbers so I get reviews to see what the independent tests showed.

A little extra does not hurt for the following reasons
1. When capacitors age they let more ripple through, and a bigger PSU has extra capacitance that makes up for the aging.
2. It is a real pain to have to get another larger PSU just because you bought a new graphics card, or had to get a card to replace something that failed on the MB. Such additions add to the current needed from the PSU.
3. A larger PSU has extra thermal capacity, which makes them run farther from their heat limits, and thus they last longer and are less likely to have failures.
Most power handling components fail in a rough proportion to the self-generated heat they have to endure.
4. A PSU that appears to marginally meet your current needs may cause erratic errors that are difficult to diagnose. The PSU rating may be overrated, or your estimate of power needs might not be taking into account surges and transient needs.
5. A larger PSU may be less efficient, so a little extra is better than too much extra.
This requires getting extensive testing results, and efficiency difference may be small for models from the same manufacturer.

Most computer failures are in the power handling parts. These are the PSU and the power regulators on the motherboard. It includes capacitors in switching power supplies.

Some motherboards of a few years ago were getting counterfeit capacitors that would fail.
The characteristic symptom was that all the capacitors were bulging. The counterfeiters had relied upon stolen formula for the capacitor electrolyte but had not got the entire formula. Those capacitors got onto many motherboards.

Capacitors also fail due to heat, manufacturing defect, or for unknown reasons.
They do not always bulge, sometimes they go open or short.

The PSU has to handle 120V or 220V (high voltage) and the high current for the entire computer.

The motherboards have power handling parts to regulate the CPU voltages. This is not insignificant due to the current a fast multi-core CPU draws. These power parts also do not have decent heatsinks. Most motherboards can be repaired by either replacing the capacitors, or the on-board regulators. This is a job for someone with SMD soldering experience. You would have to measure the voltages at certain power regulators on the motherboard to determine if they have failed.

Overheating leads to power component failure due to altering the doping profiles in the transistors.
Overheating can occur due to a failed fan, inadequate fan, cables blocking air paths, dust
on the heat sinks, dust in the grills, and high ambient air temperature.

If you want to save some power.
High efficient power supply.
Use an aggressive laptop style CPU throttling for power conservation.
Reduce the CPU voltage and underclock it. This can be done by a program (or BIOS)
and is easier than changing a PSU.
Leave some memory out (only because it is easy to change compared to anything else and your programs will manage to run anyway).

Last edited by selfprogrammed; 04-15-2014 at 12:24 AM.
 
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