I know nothing about laptop hard drives
 

Hi

The hard drive on my HP Pavilion dv5000 series laptop just died. RIP.

...after just 2 years! That's probably my own fault though as I did a *lot* of transcoding on what is basically a media-centre type laptop. I didn't realise that I guess you're not really supposed to do that sort of thing with laptops...? I got some funny errors at the time, and its never quite worked the same since until one day, splat, the hard drive just went.


So I'm looking to buy a new hard drive, and went to ebuyer and dabs. However I'm a bit confused about all the options. Product manuals say that I had a@ (It was a Toshiba MK3??? GAS model, I remember):

From what I read, practically all newish laptops have 2.5" hard drives.
However, DABS offers:

1) What do the SFF and 1/x H's mean? Does it make any difference which I get?

2) What about the spin speed (rpm) and cache size? What difference do these make?

3) Also available is SATA, IDE and Serial Attached SCSI. Looking at my specs, it seems I had IDE. Does this mean the replacement has to be IDE as well? Just what is the difference between SATA and IDE?

4) Brands available are:
* Toshiba (14),
* Fujitsu (11),
* Western Digital (10),
* Hitachi (9),
* HP (8),
* Seagate (6),
* Lenovo (1)

Which are the 'cheap' brands and which are the 'good' brands? I basically want a reliable but reasonably priced hard drive, but I don't know which of these are recommended and which to avoid. Which are the good ones?

5) Lastly, on replacing the hard drive, do I *really* need to use those antistatic wristbands / computer mats, etc? What would happen if I didn't?


Thanks a bunch!
144

They make no difference for compatibility. A faster spin speed and a larger cache size make for faster performance.

You should replace your IDE drive with another IDE drive. You can get SATA to work if you also buy an adapter.

I have never used them and never had a problem. I remove jewelry, watches etc. and I will sometimes touch a metal chair to drain off static electricity.

-------------------------
Steve Stites

I agree with jailbait on all points & will add:

There's no point in using an adaptor to convert IDE to SATA other than compatibility with future hardware - i.e., if you upgrade your computer later & want to use this drive again.

re: brands - I've used Hitachi, Western Digital, and Seagate; all with pretty good luck. I usually go with a 7200 rpm Hitachi Desk/Travelstar series. I've used them in everything from servers to laptops & have been very pleased with them. They also usually benchmark at least as fast as other similar drives, if not a little faster.

Hi thanks for the replies

But what about the "SFF and 1/8 H / 1/6 H"? I wouldn't want to buy one of these and then find they weren't compatible.

Also, what actually is the cache size? how does it make any difference


thanks again

Hi,

SFF(small form factor) PC is what you would use if you had something along the lines of a Shuttle SFF PC or the like.

The MTBF for a HDD is rather high, generally for a laptop typical 500,000 hours. The MTBF is calculated with a multiple of drives taken to a failure point then the average is taken.

Your 'transcoding' on the laptop shouldn't have degraded the HDD unless you are loading at a extremely high rate. But the 'SMART' should have taken care of the HDD.

As for replacement of your HDD, I would replace with a device that fits the laptop and use. The current availability of the 7200 rpm drives for laptops means you will being a bit more for the access time(s). The 5400 drives are affordable and for the HP would fit for the operational needs.

edit: the cache available on current drives is 2-8 MB on most HDD

Laptop hard disks come in differing heights as well as all of the other stuff. Now I'm not aware of the terminology that they are using here, but it looks similar to the 'U' height terminology used by makers of rack equipment (1U, 2U, 3U...).

When I last did this, I measured the height in mm and told the supplier that an x mm drive was coming out and that was what I had to replace.

If all else fails (& perhaps in any case), tell the supplier what model laptop it is, e.g., "must be suitable for a ..." and then if it is wrong, you can return it.

If you had IDE, replace with IDE. While, technically (but maybe not practically) other interface standards may be quicker, you gain nothing by using one of the other ones as you still have to convert back to the slower one, which will be the bottleneck. And, given the size of a laptop, you may have difficulty packing away the adaptor in a neat and safe manner.

Err, its the size of the memory cache in the drive (I can't see how that's explained anything, but if you tell me which bit you don't understand...). In theory, caching the information in RAM speeds up access, because you don't have to wait for mechanical bits. In practice, in testing, results are a bit unconvincing (to say the least). But maybe it depends on what filesystems you adopt (please don't ask).

Bigger is better, but maybe only negligibly so. I wouldn't pay extra for more cache, except that a drive with more cache is likely to be a more recent design and more recent is (in general) better.

I wouldn't describe any of those brands as bad, per se, but
I wouldn't buy Seagate right now. See http://www.madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=8121 (although I've also had a Seagate employee categorically deny that story to me in the last week....but I'd still steer clear until the dust settles).
I'm not sure that Lenovo actually make their own drives, so I suspect a Lenovo drive is a rebadged Hitachi/(IBM) drive. Not that Hitachi is in any way a bad thing as that would probably be my first choice. Although, really, just comparing brands is a bit useless as you have to know models as well as most brands have a range of models from performance to value.

That does make a difference and more is better, except in power consumption (so expect a fast spin speed to reduce battery life slightly). But also, as time has gone on, drives have improved, so a 7200 today may use no more power than a 5400 of a few years ago.

No.
Firstly, the interfaces should have a level of protection.
But, secondly, all you need to do is have everything at the same potential. So, irrespective of the actual potential, if you, the laptop and the drives are at the same potential you can't cause esd damage. (Of course, you need to be a bit careful about getting them all to the same potential, which is where putting everything on an antistatic mat comes in.) But you don't need all that much care to achieve this: So, if you do all your work on a single workbench, that'll probably do it, unless you have nylon carpets (or nylon underwear!) and when you grasp the laptop chassis, give, say, 30 seconds for potentials to equalise. And, when you actually fit the new drive to the connector, grasp drive and laptop chassis for a period so you are all at the same potential.

Also remeber that Hard drives have their own warranties. just because the Laptop had a 1 year warranty, doesn't mean the HD didn't have a 3 year warranty.. you may be able to get a FREE replacement of the hard drive by calling the manufacturer of the drive itself, or check the warranty on the manufacturers website and apply for an RMA (A free replacement is still better than an inexpensive replacement right ? )..

also the mention of an adapter from SATA to IDE won't work in a laptop.. there typically isn't extra room for something like that. In a desktop however that is a possible option.

A quick search for a replacement drive for your laptop turns up the following results..
So the part you need to be concerned with is in bold..
an IDE drive that is 2.5" and no more than 9.5 mm in height.

I recommend Seagate typically, they have a 5 Year warranty on their Hard Drives
(which is why I suggested you check the warranty on your current drive)
Maxtor for a while was selling drives with a 1 year warranty.. if the manufacturer isn't willing to stand behind their product with a decent warranty, then why would I want to trust their product ?

examples..
Seagate 160 GB 5400 RPM 8MB cache - 5 year warranty

Seagate 160GB HD 7200 RPM 8MB Cache with G-Force technology to detect falling and auto park heads - 5yr Warranty

Hitachi 160 GB 5400RPM 8MB Cache - 3 year warranty



The lack of Linux support in Seagate Free Agent external USB drives article listed above would not have any affect on a standard internal IDE drive. these will work just fine with Linux. although that lack of support in Seagates Free Agent external USB HD line is disturbing..

The interesting thing is that I actually did a SMART test on my hard drive a couple of months or so before it broke. I'd used a 100,000 hours or so (I don't get how this works though... there are only 7*24*52=8736 hours in a year?!?) and it gave it a clean bill of health, which falsely put my mind to rest over some of the strange errors I'd been getting...

When I first got it, after a few weeks of transcoding movies (about 1 a day, taking about 8 hours, high CPU load) my laptop had a little 'episode' - even windows didn't boot and linux was giving strange errors. I left it alone for a fortnight and it was fine, but then I noticed that my linux installations generally started corrupting after a few months... Some coloured lines appeared down the side of my LCD screen at the time too which are always there even in bios etc. Don't know what you'd make of that.


sorry for being obtuse, but can I ask how / where you got this info?
I looked in the dv5000 product manuals, but the only information there was what I put up... none on drive heights, etc.

About the warranty, thanks very much... I checked out this page http://www.toshibastorage.com/main.a...pport/Warranty
which says that there is 3 year warranty in the US/Canada... don't know if that applies to the UK? I'll email their customer services department.

I know my model was a Toshiba MK3???? GAS, I think I found that out with SMART tools. You wouldn't happen to know how I could get this info? (Sorry again for the poor searching skills.)

Thanks!

To get that info I searched for a HP Laptop parts site..

Then I went to the HP Laptop Hard Drive section an searched for dv5000

It returned information on the replacement Hard drive I listed in quotes for the ludicrous price of $323.00 (which is why I didn't bother posting that link) but I did manage to get the physical specs of the drive using this method..

Now armed with the drives interface and physical size it was easy to find reasonably priced replacement drives.


Toshiba is an international company, I would be surprised if there wasn't a comparable warranty in the UK..
http://www.storage.toshiba.eu/index.php?id=50

Eww I certainly don't care for Toshiba's warranty/RMA options.. Doesn't look like you will get a replacement from them in the UK for your dead drive :(

I like to call MTBF as Mean Time Baloney Factor. This rating is a bunch a bull. I never look at warranty for hard drives anymore. If it fails within the return policy from the store, I get a replacement. If it lasts longer and fails withing a few years, I just get a new one. New ones has more efficient firmware and better performance.

S.M.A.R.T. is stupid. It never tells when things will happen. I normally use the loudness of the hard drive. Louder it gets, closer it gets to have problems. Since your drive is failing, it is too late to use spinrite to check the drive. I suggest use spinrite on the new one, so you can gauge its life.

You should wear anti-static bands because notebooks do not have ground to touch while working on them like desktop do. I suggest attach the anti-static band on a desktop's chassis that is connected to the AC socket.

To replace a notebook hard drive, just note the dimensions of the failed drive and also note any extra room in the notebook.

Seagate drives do get very, very hot compared to other brands. Heat does not move out of a notebook computer as easily as it does in desktops. I suggest Hitachi and Western Digital because they are faster (lower latency) compared to Seagate. They also are cooler in temperature than Seagate. Toshiba notebook hard drives are known to have good power management.

I suggest go to tomshardware.com and find 2.5 IDE hard drives that have low latency or low access times. Look at benchmarks on loading programs. Throughput does not matter when latency is too high. Also look at thermal ratings of each hard drive.

When you do replace the hard drive, be very careful to not bend the cable too much because the wires in the cable are fragile. While the notebook computer is disassemble, use compress air to clean out the notebook computer. It is also a good time to unmount the CPU heat sink to re-apply a thermal pad or thermal grease.

False. A faster spin speed does not mean higher performance. It is actually higher power consumption. A 5400 RPM hard drive can beat a 7200 RPM hard drive. A large cache does in sense provide better performance. More cache does helps in database transactions such as the operating system.

Hi,
That was not the original intent for 'SMART'. 'SMART' can provide you with some detail as to the condition of the drive. As for 'Spinrite', good diagnostic utility. But it too is limited. Sure if you do a diagnostic series test on your new drive and periodically perform diagnostics you can compose a possible reflection of the condition of the HDD over a span of time. With the cost of HDD low, I would rather use my time in other places. It's not the same as when the HDD subsystems cost $50K, then we would diagnose the system and perform routine maintenance so as to prevent a head crash or system failure because of a HDD subsystem.

I like your diagnostic method. I guess I will need new hearing aid batteries so I can see if my HDD is failing. If you are having a bearing failure then BACKUP ASAP. If it's a head crash then too late for anything. I think the modern HDD are great and worth the $$/GB. I've personally had about 6 HDD disk hard failures. Most were beyond the MTBF (your 'Mean Time Baloney Factor'), not my MTBF which statistically is sound if it's not Oscar Meyer. Say as you want, the data has been worked over by people a lot smarter than you or I. I use the data as a guide and have noted that.

Most modern laptops do have good heat transfer designs. I suppose your a ME with Heat transfer design experience. What's the delta T for the Seagate HDD you specify. You seem to mix a lot of apples and oranges, suppose next the salad will be to limp because sitting near the Seagate. Really, the HT is a science of it's own. I don't claim to know HT but I have worked with HT for several years. Show me the data! Where's the DATA?

Hear say!

Where's the data on this one? The cache will perform at what level for the 7200 vs 5400?

Most newer Laptops have removable HDD, usually just a few screws to remove the HDD & cover. Then you must be careful when replacing the HDD within the HDD carrier.

If you must clean the Laptop then use 'clean dry compressed air'. Your stock Craftsman air compressor will not do, unless you have a good filter/dryer. I would not remove the heat pipe or heat sink if not necessary. You will probably create more problems if you've never done this before. Most pads have a long life. It's not like when your grease would dry out on the hulk heat sink in your P4 Tower. If it ain't broke don't fix it!

I don't say that it's the cause of your problem but there is (was) a possible / perceived issue with Ubuntu (Feisty and Gutsy) and hard disks in laptops.

google
Bug #59695 in acpi-support (Ubuntu)

You'll have to do further research yourself if Ubuntu 7.04 (as in your profile) is indeed your distro.

Whoops, I meant 100000 *spin cycles*. I've read about that Ubuntu bug before, I don't think I had it. 100000 cycles isn't *too* bad really for a heavily used 2yr old laptop.

I'm definitely not covered by warranty... I checked out the Toshiba storage UK website, and they clearly state that OEM is not under warranty. I think it must only be in US/Canada that you get that independent 3 year warranty. You lucky folk.

Heat sinks/compressed air/etc sounds a little beyond me, but I'll be off now to buy myself a new hard drive. Shame about the expense, but then I think if I keep running off live cds then I'll just wear out my optical disk drive.

Thanks again!

Hi,

You could use the 'LiveCD to RAM' if available. Max out your memory while your at it. That is if you can afford too.

Or use VirtualBox to have a Linux on your laptop host.

This link and others are available from 'Slackware-Links'. More than just Slackware® links!

Higher Rotational speed = Lower Seek time..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_disk
I don't see how it would affect power consumption if you design the motor properly, but then again I can't say as I have ever measured the actual power consumption of a HD..