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Old 11-20-2012, 05:51 AM   #46
business_kid
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I have no idea if linux even supports dual graphics and if it does how well it would work.
From what I gather, it doesn't. Windows will throw the simple graphics stuff at a sandy or ivy bridge and for acceleration it wakes up the discrete GPU. Xorg-server and half a dozen things need rejigging for that, including all binary blobs.That bit looks at least a year away, or longer.
Quote:
If you were a gamer, an attitional AMD or nVidia GPU is probably a good thing (though there is always some risk in getting any switchable graphics/dual graphics/optimus setup).
I don't get this at all. For a serious gamer, bumblebee & nouveau are hardly runners, so there's a binary blob which doesn't support optimus. How is that better? Then why nvidia? And in the case of an amd/amd/amd setup, how is it worse? Turn one off in /sys or with an acpi call and all is well until software catches up, surely.
Quote:
an added GPU is a pointless complexity that will increase costs and reduce battery life, and may or may not work.
It's a risky added complexity that you recommend to every gamer :-P.
As for the A10s, sure they are out there with HD7970s but also without - HP dv7-7010us , HP dv6z-7000 to mention 2. I can't get supply here for these in Europe so far. I largely accept your comments on cpu power. I have a twin core turion and stuff that equals that or better is in the ball park. And don't talk to me about resale: Can you imagine how far away the _next_ time I want to do this to myself is? Over 40 posts - Strewth!
 
Old 11-20-2012, 06:43 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
I don't get this at all. For a serious gamer, bumblebee & nouveau are hardly runners, so there's a binary blob which doesn't support optimus. How is that better? Then why nvidia?
The nVidia closed drivers will work with bumblebee. In some cases anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
And in the case of an amd/amd/amd setup, how is it worse? Turn one off in /sys or with an acpi call and all is well until software catches up, surely.
You're gambling that both the APU and the GPU are connected to the HDMI output. You're also buying a laptop that has extra parts (and hence expense) you dont need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
It's a risky added complexity that you recommend to every gamer :-P.
Sorry, maybe I should have made myself clearer.

Gaming on a laptop is possible. Its limited though, and for any given amount of $$$ you'll get far more GPU power from a desktop.

The vast majority oflaptops with nVidia GPUs use GT5XXM or GT640M (or lower) GPUs. They are in comparison to the desktop GPUs totally gutless, and are outrun by 'entery level gaming' GPUs like the GTX 550 Ti. GTX 5XXM and GT640M+/GTX 6XXM will be around as fast as a GTX 550 Ti, but that is still an 'entry level' GPU. For people who are into games the GTX 560 is as slow as I would suggest. To get a mobile GPU that is in the ballpark of a GTX 560 means getting a GTX 570M or higher, or GTX 660M or higher.

Those are not cheap GPUs and fenerally dont appear on laptops in the less than $1000-1250 US price range.

Its back to the 'get cheap laptop that actually works as a laptop and a desktop for gaming' situation as you get more computer for your $$$.

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
I have a twin core turion and stuff that equals that or better is in the ball park.
Everything you can get now (apart from the single core 'celeron' branded stuff, intel atoms and some of the early AMD fusion systems) will ourun a turion. Even the very low end intel CPUs like the G620.
 
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:49 AM   #48
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The options are:

1) Get a laptop with nivida (and probably optimus) = good performance, may need bumblebee.
2) Get a laptop with AMD = bad drivers, bad performance
3) Get a laptop with Intel = bad drivers, bad performance
4) Get a desktop with nivida and avoid optimus completely.
 
Old 11-20-2012, 06:57 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by H_TeXMeX_H View Post
1) Get a laptop with nivida (and probably optimus) = good performance, may need bumblebee.
2) Get a laptop with AMD = bad drivers, bad performance
3) Get a laptop with Intel = bad drivers, bad performance
4) Get a desktop with nivida and avoid optimus completely.
1- will require bumblebee. Unlss you can find an old laptop when being able to switch between nVidia and Intel was possible in the BIOS (this option is AFAIK unavaible with newer optimus setups)

2 + 3- have you even used an AMD GPU recently, or used the intel HD series video? You hadnt last time you started with this....

4- Not possible anymore. Barring ancient laptops which will probably be totally unavailable, in the europe.
 
Old 11-20-2012, 10:15 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
And in the case of an amd/amd/amd setup, how is it worse? Turn one off in /sys or with an acpi call and all is well until software catches up, surely.

You're gambling that both the APU and the GPU are connected to the HDMI output. You're also buying a laptop that has extra parts (and hence expense) you dont need.
The GPU has the hdmi in every laptop I've been able to check. The trouble I'm finding is - hardly anybody makes a 17" screen without throwing in a dedicated gpu. A few A10 based systems exist in theory - like the Higgs Boson :-/. If I dropped the screen size, I could sort myself out easily.

This has been extremely illuminating altogether. I'm after the HP dv7-7010us & HP dv6z-7000 through the local HP shop. As for asking the Ebay sellers - there was NO conversation, as we all expected. No reply at all. Ditto Staples.co.uk. Caught them with This One which has a HD7520 Graphics GPU(in the A6), or a HD7670/7520 Dual Graphics depending where you read.

I've made up my mind for the moment. I'll pass on nvidia, and dual graphics for the moment and seek an A10 based box without an extra gpu. One major reason is /usr/lib64/libGL*(nvidia overwrites them, Intel needs originals) another is not wishing to reward Nvidia for the lack of optimus support.

If I get fed up looking for that, I'll grab an AMD/AMD/AMD option in the new year and use power express (= optimus for ATI stuff _now_ in the binary blob on their decent gpus) or vga_switcheroo (now in kernel). It still needs X support, but I imagine that will come.

As for the AMD HD Series, A box that has just died on me had an AGP 8x HD4650 (aka r7xx aka who knows?) and that was a decent and well behaved but not high end card which performed respectably on OSS drivers on 1440x900. It is greatly outclassed by what AMD has on offer today in terms of fab size and parallel processing.
 
Old 11-22-2012, 04:46 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
The trouble I'm finding is - hardly anybody makes a 17" screen without throwing in a dedicated gpu.
I dont know how you are searching, but I can find plenty of 17'' laptops with no added GPU in ireland.

Samsung 350V
http://www.dabs.ie/products/samsung-...56890000&src=3

Toshiba Satellite C870-17F - P B960-
http://www.elara.ie/productdetail.as...PSCBAE00N00CEN

HP Pavilion g7-1358sa
http://www.pixmania.ie/ie/uk/1198743...g7-1358sa.html

LENOVO G780-
http://www.currys.ie/Product/LENOVO-...own/316174/148

HP Pavilion g7-2061sa-
http://www8.hp.com/ie/en/products/la...ml?oid=5283331

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
A few A10 based systems exist in theory - like the Higgs Boson :-/.
There arent going to be anywhere near as many A10/A8 laptops as intel. They are also quite new, and will take a while for them to get to europe from everything I've seen.

I wouldnt get one of them over a i3/i5 unless the price was _very_ good.
 
Old 11-22-2012, 08:37 AM   #52
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Hey Gentelmen:
Like busniness_kid said:
" Optimus isn't going to be supported under Linux"
But I found this article and am curious if we could be able to believe it or not?


The Bumblebee Project proudly presents version 3.0 of Bumblebee, a project aiming to support NVIDIA Optimus technology under Linux. After two months of hard work this version has finally been considered stable enough for release.

http://bumblebee-project.org/
 
Old 11-22-2012, 09:49 AM   #53
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I don't have to buy, I just wanted to.
The boxes on dabs.ie & pixmania.ie are new - I never saw them when I searched those sites.

I had been glazing over at Samsung (Always had an optimus card) & Toshiba (poor value for money) and indeed Lenovo. The Lenovo G780 and Tosh C870 are each one model with many specifications out there

I'm an intel ignoremus. Post #2 told me i5 or i7 and HM 76-77, so I watered that advice slightly (i3-17, HM 75-77). I was only getting the hd4000 graphics, as I don't want graphics obsolete from day #1 again! But I didn't know these things, so I rejected B960s.

What hit me was how out of date the stuff on sale (and I) was. I thought that, given the upcoming Saturnalia, with the associated spendthrift state that afflicts the majority, and end of year triggering company spend, that the market could have improved by new year and something from the later 21st century might become available in Europe.

Where I can, I'm searching with the site's built in system. It doesn't always work.

Does a 2 core i3 upgrade to i5? i5 -->i7? I presume 2 cores upgrades to four cores? And that B960?
 
Old 11-23-2012, 08:06 AM   #54
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Finally! Ordered this one.The HPs were not available ("Temporarily out of stock" The Toshiba wouldn't specify what intel graphics they were shoving at me, the Lenovo had that B960 apu w/obsolete intel graphics.

I like the intel/intel option least, but it's about time I got real.

@Ztcoracat: Bumblebee is 4 developers struggling to support Optimus without any manufacturer support. They do surprisingly well. They have some functions up and running, but as for threading together the fancy control that is needed to optimize dual graphics - forget it. Forget it, in fact until X catches up. . . when they agree what they are going to do . . . if they ever do.

I feel strongly that Nvidia should be providing that software, if we are to pay them for GPUs.
 
Old 11-23-2012, 09:08 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
Finally! Ordered this one.
The HPs were not available ("Temporarily out of stock" The Toshiba wouldn't specify what intel graphics they were shoving at me, the Lenovo had that B960 apu w/obsolete intel graphics.

I like the intel/intel option least, but it's about time I got real.

@Ztcoracat: Bumblebee is 4 developers struggling to support Optimus without any manufacturer support. They do surprisingly well. They have some functions up and running, but as for threading together the fancy control that is needed to optimize dual graphics - forget it. Forget it, in fact until X catches up. . . when they agree what they are going to do . . . if they ever do.

I feel strongly that Nvidia should be providing that software, if we are to pay them for GPUs.
Thanks for explaining the facts. Got it; I'll forget it (the dual graphics that is)
 
Old 11-23-2012, 09:19 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztcoracat View Post
Thanks for explaining the facts. Got it; I'll forget it (the dual graphics that is)
The real test is to talk to bumblebee users out there and ask them. I won't pay nvidia - period. But that's me, and I wouldn't force that on anyone.
 
Old 11-23-2012, 09:35 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
The real test is to talk to bumblebee users out there and ask them. I won't pay nvidia - period. But that's me, and I wouldn't force that on anyone.
Yeah, I could pursue chatting with the bumblebee users but not so sure I want to go through; what could become a long drawn out process. But I might just for grins and giggles just to see what the outcome would be.

When I purchase my next new laptop I'll remember all that you and Cascade9 have discussed.
In many ways this thread is exceptionally educational and great advice for one looking for a new computer.
 
Old 11-24-2012, 03:11 AM   #58
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Quote:
In many ways this thread is exceptionally educational and great advice for one looking for a new computer.
Yes it was. I needed this information and I am very grateful to Cascade9 & H_TeXMeX_H for their up to date wisdom, and for answering my many questions. On the strength of this info I was able to avoid buying last year's junk - again! Mind you, the last time I did it with my eyes open, because I bought bankrupt stock. But it seems to be all that's on offer here.
 
Old 11-26-2012, 12:50 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
Post #2 told me i5 or i7 and HM 76-77, so I watered that advice slightly (i3-17, HM 75-77).
I _never_ suggested _any_ mobile chipset. I didnt say 'i5 or i7', what I did say is 'i5 is probably the 'sweet spot' for intel now'.

That post was all about desktop CPUs and chipsets, and I never even touched mobile CPUs or chipsets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
I was only getting the hd4000 graphics, as I don't want graphics obsolete from day #1 again! But I didn't know these things, so I rejected B960s.
As long as you have 2nd ('Sandy bridge') or 3rd ('Ivy bridge') series Intel HD graphics, you wont notice any difference betwwen 'HD Graphics', 'HD Graphics 2000', 'HD Graphics 2500', 'HD Graphics 3000' or 'HD Graphics 4000'.

The main difference between them is HD Graphics, 2000 and 2500 have 6 execution uints, 3000 has 12, and 4000 has 16.

They all run pretty much the same. Getting a HD 4000 is not going to make the system have any longer lifespan than the 'lower' models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
Does a 2 core i3 upgrade to i5? i5 -->i7? I presume 2 cores upgrades to four cores? And that B960?

i5 are dual core only in mobile CPUs.

Some laptops will take CPU upgrades. Trying to figure out what laptop will take what CPU with what parts is an exercfise in crazy. (e.g. some laptops have the same chasis and motherboard for everything from P9XX up to i7, but have a different heatsink/radiator setup. That sort of thing can be really hard to figure out....)

Quote:
Originally Posted by business_kid View Post
given the upcoming Saturnalia
I wish it was Saturnalia.
 
Old 11-26-2012, 10:52 AM   #60
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No, you didn't mention mobile chipsets, you recommended 2 chipsets, and didn't say whether they were mobile or not. I hardly ever saw them. You also waxed eloquent about some bug in the '67 chipset so I made a mental note to avoid all '67 chipsets. But I quietly forgot your advice otherwise.

Yes, when buying Intel graphics, I'm in the tortoise race anyhow. I gather you deleted a real graphics card because of my spec. But Ivy bridge (=hd 4000 from what I can gather - maybe I'm wrong) is supposed to be an improvement on Sandy Bridge. I have a philosophical objection to buying Intel, let alone obsolete Intel! All this crap will be obsolete as soon as Intel make a decent GPU - I know that much. For the laugh, I grabbed a driving game, which is about the only thing I could control any way effectively, although I never could stay on the Jacks seat or the Bath rim in Micro Machines. I'll make a txz package of it, and install it for comparison purposes. I still have a gaming capable guy in the house, so even if I can't stay on track, I'm sure he'll manage.
Quote:
i5 are dual core only in mobile CPUs.
Some laptops will take CPU upgrades. Trying to figure out what laptop will take what CPU with what parts is an exercise in crazy. (e.g. some laptops have the same chasis and motherboard for everything from P9XX up to i7, but have a different heatsink/radiator setup. That sort of thing can be really hard to figure out....)
Good thing I didn't bank on upgrading apu. It sounds like you'd end up in a home for the bewildered. Anyhow, all the buttons are clicked and the thing is ordered, so I'll find out how good or bad for my purposes it is shortly.
 
  


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