no problem, at all!


now, if you'll all excuse me..

id like to steer your imagination for a sec, if i may?


i read in linux reviews how x distro is good, but it really is time that it has graphical user interface for installation purposes like distro y...


well,
how about not just graphical, but 3D!!

how about your favorite distro have 3D crazy, flying/jumping penguins for splash-screen and 3D rotating cubes for menu buttons?


or...

how about...
same for, say LILO loader as well?

YES,
you can have 3D hi-res graphics, right after bios boot!
and all you need is a little 800kb driver, one file!


all you need is right there, right now, everything setup and ready to start coding... and it works on great deal of different computers/GPUs!

you can go, take myOS, and have that 3D intro/splash-screen for any distro by this time tomorrow! or just put classic OpenGL demo 3d gears that is already there with other demos, there must be some people that would like just looking at, at least, spinning gears while all the stuff is loading...

we want to beat Vista after all, dont we?

and thats where it is all going with OSes these days,
just look at them Vista, MacOS X... 3D eye-candy wins customers?

but, why not? we already paid for it, 3D is in our computer already, your graphic card have more memory than your whole computer 5 yrs ago, and your computer has 10x or more, and its not enough, its never enough, whats going on? did X got faster 10 times - No!

why not?
because, in graphics, CPU memory doesnt count too much compared to the new kid on the block - GPU memory, and since X was not built with OpenGL and unfortunately cant be built or modified easily, because it is its own stopping stone - it is requirement for OpenGL, it cant use or benefit "easily" from that progress in hardware world, otherwise X would be that much faster!



"i dont know OpenGL", you say?

SUPER! i made this Linux for you!
you have everything there you need to learn it,
if you are programmer, you are ready in a day, NO JOKE
that means two days for you to make 3D welcome intro to entertain you while Linux is loading... and maybe throw in some game too while you at it... its EASY people!

its not magic, nothing special, its just that OpenGL is easy as it is, and with all the examples and source code there is nothing to it, just look at how source code is small, clean and simple, half page! nothing there almost, and you get 3D rendering!



so, how about it?





im still asking the same thing tho...
why "normal" drivers are not like that, or in my old words:

* Why do I need X to use OpenGL?


and how the bell no one knows about this -*** drivers? if you try to search the net you'll only find what i posted lately... strange, eh? i mean it, no single soul on earth seem to be using them(on Linux), they know about **** in DOS... these are not just graphic drivers, but complete i/o, interrupt and other device drivers, ALL you need to build complete OS or app like X.

is this glitch in the Matrix? conspiracy?

aye, caramba!
and now i cant say their name anymore,
so between the two i think its a conspiracy ;-)

cheers

jlliagre ,

>"From LQ Rules:
There is no advertising allowed in the forums. If you are interested in advertising, please"

i mentioned site where you can download SOURCE CODE drivers (based on Mesa)

just like you did,
with this link you gave me:
http://mesa3d.sourceforge.net/fbdev-dri.html

and thats great link, i cant wait until that start working, yes thats what im talking about! Compiz and Beryl in command prompt!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compiz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl_%28window_manager%29


but, you havent seen, read or understand my web-site,
or "****" site, even less tried it out, have you?

if you had, you'd know, more below...



>"Let's say because this is closed source commercial software."

Why? Lets not say that, or anything else that is not true!

do you agree?



too good to be true, eh?
it was commercial tho, so i understand your mistake...


but now,
its "free", GPL, FREE downloadable FULL SOURCE CODE

now,
since you dont let me say their link, it will take more than a second for you to find out that for yourself, if you will?


i find it tragic,
that im trying to help other programmers, let you people know of something... something truly great, that you see yourself, no one knows about, and is very, very useful, is it not?

i got quite few e-mails saying:
"sheesh! why didnt i know about this?"

thats why im telling you, to save you guys time,
and let you know COOL things are possible!

why am i met with resistance?
i would pay you with gold if you told me about this 6 monts ago!

is this glitch in the Matrix?

do not over-idealized the people ... the people are like small-kids that need to be spanked on the butt with a river-eel in-order to actually grow ...

dont make the same mistakes again ...


//mistakes painfully learned ... *sighhhhhhhh*


.


[BTW ::] dont bother about me for i donno what the hell you are talking about ...


.

Maybe it's because I'm getting on in years, I have the odd grey hair as testament to that, but 3D rotating cubes do nothing for me. I spend enough time trying to get my programs to be meet the requirements, I hope I'm not expected to slip a jumping penguin in there somewhere.

I confess that once I tried some of the 3D effects on my laptop, the wobbly screen was fun for ten minutes but then I turned it off and got back to work. I find that my desktop is very functional and that is what it should be functional and so I find that I have little time for eye candy.

However, I understand that others like it and that it is possible that it could improve the way we work if such features were addressed thoughtfully.

So you ask "why am I met with resistance?"

For me it's just not needed.

Well, I've been reading about myOS and it sounds like a very interesting project. I myself don't actually have use for it, so I won't try it out. I am personally impressed by the amount of time you say it takes to boot. For quite a while I've been willing to create a small machine, yet powerful enough to play NeoGeo and NeoGeoCD, connect to my TV and play all those amazing games SNK (Among others) made using a X-Arcade joystick. That would be killer.

I wonder if Scitech's drivers provide TV-out capabilities as well? How is ATI support for it?.

Anyway, making such a box is still technically impossible in Linux today. There are virtually no good NeoGeoCD emulators available and as good as Mame is, it does not hold a candle to Winkawaks or NeoRageX performance-wise (nor it supports later games such as KoF'2k3). Because of that, I am sticking with my modified Xbox ^_^;;

Oh well, an interesting project indeed. Not really useful for me, but interesting enough.

Regards!

yup ... sometime some people worry too much ... and normally "just dont think too much" will works before you go away , at least you left something behind ...



//will try out this myos and his stuffs ... but dont ask and expect anything ... ^_^


.

Like it seem, then perhaps "Mark Shuttleworth" from Ubuntu would be interested, I remember that he aproached to "demo" community or some like that, and saying that would be cool to have some nice 3D things there in boot and others things that can be done there, not the 2D logons.



Im interested, but no time to test it out, but I can check the code and see what is there, perhaps I will take some short of things there.



----------------

By the way, yes, why you need be a good writer???, because you need communicate something to very different people (eck!!, my natal language isnt english). With time you will learn it.

Perhaps the text as is, is good for a site... I see the site showing what you have put in your first post... but think for a second that it have is own context, ie people that where trying to find such a thing. Then you come, and in a different context the context of a forum of linux questions, you come paste a question, paste the other things, and at the end it sound like people have sayed you already, and what missed me.

----------------

If go to answer your question about "Why do I need X to use OpenGL?".

I will answer... Why I need a complete PC for use my video card (dosent matter DX, OGL, shadder programming, or general programming with Video Card).

why I can not play like with a mouse, or a keypad, connecting it with other things and not necessarily to a mother board with AGP or PCI Express... why can I not use only the thigs I whant with a graphic card, and construct my own Computational System based on a graphic card???


Is the legacy, is like is done.

There are no really open source drivers for ATI or NVIDIA (like I know), because they "hide" the implementation details that would give the source for do 3D hardware acceleration, because of patents fears between them . What people have like I know, is hacking only based in they skills to watch the graphic HW from outside.

Mega Man X,
>"For quite a while I've been willing to create a small machine, yet powerful enough to play NeoGeo and NeoGeoCD, connect to my TV and play all those amazing games SNK (Among others) made using a X-Arcade joystick. That would be killer."

yahoo!
yeah, thats great idea! thats what im talking about


Mega Man X, you made my day!
the only reason im programming today is because i loved video games soo much when i was kid (crazy kong, scramble), so im very pleased about your idea and that nick-name of yours


good bye

Thank you zelco. Mega Man is my hero. I remember back in the days Street Fighter came out to Super Famicon, I was dying to buy one, but could not afford a Super Famicon. I got myself a NES and found Mega Man. I simply loved that game . Later I did buy an American Supernes and Mega Man X became my favorite game ever. It is still my favorite game, even though Capcom manage to screw the later games up so bad that it is not even fun to mention.

I also became a programmer by accident. I started creating small adventures with RPG maker. I moved to other more advanced RAD and one day, I've accidently learned Java (and I work with it). I've not worked with any "big" game lately, but there is a card-based game on my TODO list.

Anyway, I wish you luck with your project. I've had a few dreams broken by some peoples who did not believe me (and I am guilty to do the same sometimes to others) so don't let anyone do the same to you. Your project does have place and who knows, someday I may even modify it to create my "SNK Dreambox", since you are releasing it open source and under GPL. And it is the closest project to actually be able to do that.

I wish I could give a hand, but I am a very horrible C-programmer and I never got into OpenGL.

Best of luck!

P.S: You have a page on wikipedia as well. Nice

Mega Man X,

yeah many people i know started with games, what else do you code when you kid anyway?

how many people here actually started programming just because they wanted to make they favorite game, but better?


ok,
this is my story...

early '90, still working on cpc 464 - z80A,
Hisoft Devpac Assembler GEN, Debugger/Disassembler MON...
those were the days... anyone? where are you my spectrum, c64, and amiga friends? anyway..

time of Arcades was fading away, i just could not bear all those great games be forgotten, and it was then i decided i should learn programming (properly) and re-make all those games for my new PC. being crazy i went to great effort about that, dont ask how many games i did or how good my remakes were (many/terrible)...

i was at it so hard i didnt even notice time of internet has arrived and WWW was slowly getting into our houses, real slowly, like 3600 bauds?, not in my house tho, i was too busy...

imagine, my surprise, then..
when i finally found out about the MAME!
i thought to myself - "see, stupid, you dont re-make the games, you 'pull' them of the ROM and make only one program - emulator!"


thats how i learned preciousness of information internet can offer, and do my research before starting a project - 1st find whats best on the net and then try to do it better


bak to the story...
and then, unexpected happened!
i wasnt happy about MAME, i mean i was, but my purpose in programming was gone and i stopped programming, completly!

i went to be a graphic designer, years have passed, and i forgot everything i ever knew about programming...



until,
one day, not so long ago i found about little OpenGL,
impact on me was such that straight away i wanted to learn, everything i once knew, again... so i pulled out my old "Bjarne Stroustrup C++", blowed dust from covers... and im programming everyday since, dont even work as a programmer, i do it, mostly, for free

since then i realised little OpenGL is actually big,
high-quality, industry standard, open source, 3D/2D graphics language

in fact, that big it is direct opponent to MS DirectX, and while Microsoft is "pushing" out OpenGL in Windows in favor to DirectX, i always thought and hoped - great! we, linux, will grab hold of OpenGL and thats where we automatically WIN! im still waiting for it...

Linux could be what Mac OS X is, embrace OpenGL


i know, os X really is "linux", but thats the point, OpenGL is what makes it pretty, smooth and quick... just like any X in Linux when/if you mange to sort out those crazy, crazy drivers

You want to know the single biggest reason why graphics card drivers don't work well in Linux? Blame nVidia, ATI, and the rest of the chipset folks. The proprietary drivers don't work nearly as well in Linux as they do in other OS's (at least for ATI cards, its been a while since I've used the nvidia driver) and the chipset vendors will not release developer documentation so we can develop our own drivers. Graphics cards are complex beasts, it isn't easy to reverse engineer them. Documentation would be helpful.

>"You want to know the single biggest reason why graphics card drivers don't work well in Linux? Blame nVidia, ATI,"

thats it!!

we could so "EASILY" have hardware accelerated X, but instead, we do not even have proper hardware acceleration under X

* can nVidia/ATI please, make(convert exisiting) drivers for low-level Linux, so we can have accelerated X? or just so it would be easier to setup ogl under X (or without)

* or let me or anyone else do that?
* why, but really, why not?

* is it, somehow, not economical company decision?
* do they not have time, money?
* have they not thought of it?
* is it not right way to do it?
* would it not be easier then "bundling" drivers with X?
* is this conspiracy, try to make Linux lame?

* WHO WOULD NOT BENEFIT?


dang them chauffeurs...
what, in the world, would happen if they (nv/ati) decided to be nice enough, to just let us USE their f' pruduct we bought from them!!

you do not pay for taxi, unless there is a driver,
but if you do, like we all did, dont expect to go far, eh?

do, they have right to do this?! lets go to court!


as jtshaw said, they dont have to make the drivers
- just LET us KNOW how do we use what you sold us!, we'll make it!

wheres my MANUAL!?


how did it come to this?
today, i wouldnt be surprised if people thought OpenGL is nVidia or ATI "product", no mention of SGI much? company is/was bankrupt, what the?!

great SGI created/invented OpenGL, and they let us ALL have it,
yes, they released 'free' that great "way" of storing, manipulating 3D/2D data and pushing it thru graphic pipeline, and it became STANDARD

did you like Toy Story?

"One of the finest cartoon film series ever produced. Particularly notable here because the characters have provided the names for Debian releases.

Toy Story is also notable for its fantastic use of OpenGL, which is freely downloadable from the Internet for use in your own projects. OpenGL works very nicely in tandem with SDL, and is available for most operating systems."
http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/wiki/in...ry&redirect=no



they GAVE it to the WORLD, and we all see benefit


nevermind they went bankrupt, while gates is the richest man on earth, what a nice place, this world... but, wait! was that "others' mistake" that nVidia and ATI have learned from?


in any case,
how dare ati and nvida grab that present like that of us, make monopoly over it, and now we should be happy with a little pieces of it they give us for Linux, while they giving handful to Windows and MS doesnt even want it there! so you have OpenGL 1.2 NOT 2.4 in win Vista and your games wont quite work so you switch to DirectX


id really like any insight in how is this possible?

isnt there a law by which company have to give manual how to use the product?

wouldnt it be great advantage for one company over another?
imagine nVida release just couple full hw accel drivers for only few models...

i believe,
that the sheer amount of possibilites and speed gain in any kind of graphical comunication with user, could have such an impact as to steer Linux community, or at least part of, to "narrow" down arround particular hardware and in effect produce "Linux console"

so, youd have instruction,
buy this, this and that hardware and you'll have your linux work like Mac OS X, and better, because then you can tweak it, and do all the Linux stuff to it!!!


i tell ya,
someone is here afraid of something, but who.. of what?

are we gonna start to "hate" them like MS, there is a monopoly, why that.. again, thats never good, is it?

i love my nVidia and ATI cards in Windows,
as for Linux, they worse than Hitler!! ha ha haa.. oh, mercy!

why dont you get yourself the "nearest" graphic card that can satisfied your needs/or quests for a perfect solution in your linux ... you can always overhaul while the thing is still running ... at least there are no ways for turning back ...


//dont bother about me ... frankly speaking i still donno what are the differences between ati and ndvia and their relationships with gl things ... ^_^


.

I have already answered your question

I think that will be nice if we have specs like microcontrollers, when you can plug them whenever you whant... but that isnt the case of the graphic cards... or even processors (we only have mnemonics and opcodes), but no more information on how to plug them whenever we whant....

In fact I get sometime an answer like that from nvidia forum... searching... searching... Why don't you guys release the Technical Specs for Legacy GPU's tought it is an answer of a moderator and cannot be tacked like the answer from NVIDIA, I guess he have some reason.

>"I have already answered your question"

ok, i see..
1.) "because of patents fears between them"

but dont understand, please explain?

please give me some example to understand, any example, in the world, where consumer suffers half/non-working product because of that?

how did SoundBlaster survive? and was not completly opposite thing, in fact, reason for its success and wide-spread?



appreciate link, i, of course, have asked myself there already...
anyway, his question is bit different as he asks for at least OLD cards specs, which makes it even worse...

and these are the answers:
2.) "Second even if nvidia released specs who would write the driver? Most people who ask about datasheets are not capable of writing a driver."

aye caramba! thats real nice for a "reason", thanks mate! (talking to whoever wrote that)


3). "Nvidia doesn't own the IP to big parts of their chips. "
'intellectual property'? own chips? what that has to do with chauffeurs? (talking to whoever wrote that)

we dont need blue-prints, just user-manual, like we have for VESA, and when they make the card they sure like to support and adhere to VESA standard, otherwise we wouldnt buy it, or would we? so, how come in case of OpenGL that THEY get to write they own standars and not even tell us about or what is it? is that not crazy?


4). "you don't have money so we don't care, and if you'll have them, then go and buy our newest product so we can take care of it"

hope not, but even then... dont forget to buy Windows on the way too, coz they work "mostly" there




so, i guess answer might lure somewhere around these, but i dont understand any! is there any article, any announcement, anything anywhere said by any kind of some representative or anyone anywhere addressing this issue in public or otherwise?


all i see on the net is that people ask the same question, and SOME other people try to GUESS how and why?

the best guess i found, so far, is this:

"It's not just this - nVidia doesn't actually own all the code in their drivers, much of it is lisenced from other companies. Open sourcing would result in a lot of lawsuits going their way.

That said, they could certainly give out enough information about newer cards to let hackers make some from scratch."

and this is the biggest collection of guesses i could find and highly recommend:
http://digg.com/linux_unix/Help_us_c..._their_drivers


or listen how this guy puts it:
"I run the tech department of a small/medium size company; and I have been screwed over by both software and hardware companies that wouldn't want to tell me how their junk works, just so they could bait and switch on me; force me to "upgrade" to versions I didn't need, pay insane amounts of money for documentation to use the hardware I had paid for, etc.

The argument that that information would help their competition is bullshit, because we are not talking about the inner workings of the chip, only about the _interface_ to access it, and anyway their competition has more than enough resources to reverse engineer their binary drivers drivers, and I'm sure they already do.

Back in the dark ages network card manufacturers didn't release documentation for their NICs, this changed long ago, and this days only NVidia(and other really stupid companies that fortunately aren't very popular) refuses to release docs for their NICs."