What's up with Debian?
The other day I tried my luck at installing Debian on my iMac 7.1. I like Ubuntu well enough, but it seems to be headed in a direction I'm not sure I want to follow, what with the "social from the start" teenie stuff. So with my tried and true Ubuntu backups up my sleeve I decided to give Debian a shot, knowing full well that it is considered more difficult than Ubuntu.
Unmitigated disaster. For a start, most Debian install media, if they boot at all on the Mac, won't respond to keyboard input; the menu just sits on the screen, dead. And the Lenny live CD knows jack about ext4 and can't even mount my existing ubuntu partitions (I even had to install less to be able to scroll in the terminal!). The latest Squeeze netinstall build (May 13) worked but showed my Mac OS hostname, so I thought it would overwrite my Mac partition and switched to expert install, which let me reformat my root partition and reuse my home partition as expected. Then I had a choice to disable root login during install, which I took, coming from Ubuntu (and MacOS which also lets me do full administrative work without root login). Of course, there was no warning that the root account was mandatory. And I may mention that netinstall was *s*l*o*w* as hell (much slower than downloading the full CD, so why Debian favors downloading the netinst images is beyond me). OK, so I boot into Debian (for which I had to rummage for my refit CD which I hadn't used in ages because I don't need it in Ubuntu). And there's this crappy desktop with this flyspeck font that I remember from Ubuntu hardy - in the upcoming release that's about to stay for a while! And this scrolling problem that Ubuntu also used to have (with the realtime kernel up to karmic, but it seems to be fixed now): when I used the mouse wheel to scroll down a window the window display would go all wonky and runny, and when I grabbed the window and moved it, it would disappear and reappear when I let go of it, instead of moving continuously. I don't even know how to describe this problem, let alone fix it, and what I found in Google wasn't to the point. And here's the hammer: When I try to go online nothing happens (device not managed). I open Network, and I am prompted (in flyspeck font) for my nonexistent root password (remember I had disabled root login; user password would not do). I actually spent an hour trying to fix this before deciding it wasn't worth my while and restoring Ubuntu. (It really isn't my job to clean up after developers who don't do theirs). The Debian forum had nothing to offer but funkiness; LinuxQuestions.org was helpful and friendly as always, but I decided to waste no more time all the same. I am very willing to learn, and considering that I bought my first computer in late 2007 I think my learning curve is above average, but I also believe in a reasonable ratio of effort and result. I suspect that using Debian is a kind of Macho thing for many people - I am an *eleet hax0r* and my balls are bigger than yours because I use Debian. And disabling the root account is for wimps only, right? I might write a bug report to Debian, but what's the point - the Debian people obviously don't care what a disastrous first impression they make (it was only going to get worse - do I compile Firefox from source, or do I use the ready-to-run Mozilla builds? What about Mactel support? Sound? And exactly how many CUPS configuration files would I have to edit manually, using vi to be taken seriously in the Debian community, to get my printer going? I didn't even try, there being better things to do with my time, and better community documentation for the Mac in Ubuntu). So much for flame; there's a more serious side to all this. I just stumbled upon Darrell Anderson's essays on http://humanreadable.nfshost.com, and this guy is saying aloud what I have been thinking for a while. There seems to be a lack of communication between the developers of open source software and the people who want to use it. Take my own case - what put me off was Debian's shockingly outdated design - or rather, lack of design - much more than the prospect of installing network manually (after all, I had had similar problems a year and a half ago with Ubuntu, and solved them. Nevertheless the nonfunctioning network is a totally gratuitous hurdle; after all I had connection during install. And artless design on the surface probably points to artless coding below. By design of course I mean basic structure and thought behind the coding, not superficial niceness and the creeping featurism along the lines of "use current frame for thumbnail" that MacOS is prone to). I might have tried again with the root account enabled (sudo passwd root should have done the trick - of course I kept looking things up); the point is that it wasn't worth my while. I had seen enough. And I am very sure that I am not the first to have this experience. Paraphrasing Anderson, you are not expected to be able to repair your own car, you are only expected to know how to drive. So why the hell are you expected to know how to compile software from source? It doesn't make sense if you really think about it. Computers are coming to be regarded as a basic cultural technique, like reading and writing and knowing your numbers. But you are not expected to manufacture your own pencils and paper, are you? So, unless there is something that I am missing in Debian that's worth my while after all, it seems that Ubuntu, which is in fact the better Debian, is pretty much the only Linux distribution that works on the Mac (apart from Opensuse, but I don't want to enable root login and switch to rpm). I am not a teenager, however, and the direction that Ubuntu seems to be taking isn't much to my liking (it seems that Mr Shuttleworth wants to become another Steve Jobs; but then he'd better come up with a real alternative to Apple's iLife suite HHOS). And I have a problem with the concept of benevolent dictators for life (with the possible exception of Linus Torvalds who really knows what he is doing). I have no trouble with the butt-ugly Plymouth logo, Gwibber and Ubuntu One as long as they can be uninstalled without harm. Tastes differ. And it is no trouble to install GIMP manually, except that leaving GIMP out is an indication of an unwelcome shift in Ubuntu's perception of its target audience. Please don't dumb Ubuntu down! We are not all kids out there! |
Ask for your money back?
I've got Debian on a Mac mini PPC. No real hassles installing it, and it works like a charm. Mileages differ. |
Yeah, it's really too bad that Debian and Ubuntu are the only two linux distros in the world to choose from...
:cry::cry::cry::cry: EDIT: Take a look at this site: http://distrowatch.com/ |
1) you didnt choose a root password when you installed, god only knows why.
2) you made exactly two posts on forums.debian.net asking for help. Quote:
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Sorry to hear about your bad experiences; I think your criticisms are fair. You tried Debian at kind of an awkward time in its development. :) Lenny (the current stable release) is getting a bit stale compared with a "bleeding edge" distro like Ubuntu. It doesn't support ext4 because, well, the kernel it uses predates ext4!
And Squeeze is currently the "testing" release, I think it is pre-Beta at this time, so probably not a good choice for a first-time user to form a good impression. :( Ubuntu is a fine choice and you can't go wrong with it. If you want to try Debian again at some point, wait until Squeeze gets its final, stable release--it is shaping up to be a good one! :) |
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Okay. Let me get this straight. You want it handed to you in the way you want? Sorry, but that's a no go here. Ubuntu is an introductory distribution and the users don't realize this. You are far down the rung of the UNIX ladder. Debian is easy; but, you put it together yourself. |
I tried Debian once as my main system.
I hated it. It didn't even come with essentials like less, everything was WAY, WAY outdated, I didn't like the apt-get package manager, and for some reason I HAD TO PUT IN THE F@$%ING CD IN EVERY TIME I WANTED TO INSTALL SOFTWARE! And of course the next day the Debian installer welcomes me, because guess what: I forgot to take the stupid CD after installing packages. |
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Priority: standard If you chose "standard" when you installed you had less. apt-get rocks, apt-get install foo , the Debian repos give me access to over 25,000 packages. And yes Debian Stable is a tad outdated, because Debian's focus is on a "stable" system not bleeding edge. That is why a lot of people choose to run Testing or Sid. The great thing about Debian is once you get it installed you never ever have to reinstall. I installed Debian way back in Feb. 2004, all I do is once a day run apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade and my system stays updated. Granted the Debian installer could use some work, but everyone knows Debian isn't a newbie friendly distro. God forbid one has to edit a text file rather than open a GUI. Debian must be doing something right, if you look on distrowatch out of the Top 50 distros 20 or so are based on Debian. You managed to install Arch but couldn't install Debian? |
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Debian just did many things not the way I like. That reminds me of another little adventure (more like a week of torture) trying to install Flash in Debian. In the end it still only worked on one of the many browsers I installed. In Arch, just type "sudo pacman -S flash-plugin". Wait a minute or two. Done! Forget about it! Works in all browsers! Also, I didn't like the way everything in Debian is outdated. It just felt horrible using these wonderful new apps in Fedora and then being forced into using this ancient crap by Debian. And one of the biggest problems for me was how much Debian modified the packages from their original version. |
apt-get install flashplugin-nonfree or from the debian-multimedia.org repo apt-get install flashplayer-mozilla
Works in Firefox, Iceweasel, midori, Opera, Chrome, Konqueror. I have never ran Debian stable, your right stable is way too old. Stable is more for servers or for people that just want a stable system, or for those that do not want/need newer app versions. Which is why I have always ran Debian unstable/sid, and why I use Firefox and Thunderbird instead of Iceweasel/Icedove. |
Thank you, snowpine, for being the only one who seems to have read my post and to have a sense of humor. I'll keep in touch with Debian.
It seems that criticising Debian invokes knee-jerk reflexes in some people. I am very glad that impert gets more mileage out of linux that I do; but I don't really want to participate in a macho pissing contest (I said so in my post, if people would read it. I also implied I already uninstalled the social stuff from ubuntu, and that I think I'd find my way around in Debian if it were worth my while. RMFP = read my F---ing post ;) |
if you wish to see good examples of pre-configured debian squeeze/sid live installable cd's
which is essentially what ubuntu is; try looking at these pureos (squeeze) http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...0yTNiGoKtifmWA sidux (sid) http://sidux.com/index.php puredyne http://puredyne.org/ I think puredyne is ubuntu/debian-live mix and of course my own creation nFlux debian squeeze with fluxbox http://linux.softpedia.com/progMoreB...isX-31789.html uploadding all new nFlux iso's now, those above are RC3's the ones uploading now are finished polished,etc one must understand that comparing ubuntu to debian is apples and oranges as Ubuntu of any kind is basically a super modified debian so, I suggest you check out those above and I highly suggest Squeeze; I have had zero problems with my nFlux squeeze installs |
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I agree that the default theme/artwork/fonts of Debian are a bit "blah" but that is easily remedied by a trip to gnome-look.org or by using one of the many fine Debian derivatives. I have Sidux, CrunchBang, AntiX and Elive running on various machines, all of which are Debian-based but are quick to install and have nice artwork. The relationship is similar to Mint vs. Ubuntu. The nice thing about Linux is so many choices, no reason for anyone to get bent out of shape over someone else's preference. ;) |
What's up with Debian?
Well, first it's A LOT MORE stable than Ubuntu :D And last, it's A LOT MORE outdated than Ubuntu :( But hey, there are plenty of options out there. Myself prefer a rock-solid stable Debian than a bleeding-edge Ubuntu :p |
We all read your post, did you read everyone's?
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You have to understand different distros are for different purposes/usages. You are obviously better fit for Ubuntu^^, and there's nothing wrong that. In the example about the car, Ubuntu users probably care more about making the car work and impress some chicks, while Debian users care more about how to make it run as fast as possible/customize it/how the engine works, etc. And I repeat, there's nothing wrong with that. If you don't like Debian you really don't want to try slackware... nor Red Hat. Debian is really one of the easiest to use "serious" distros available. /etc/network/interfaces is a lot more logical to check than "Networks" (is that a panel?) or at least when you have a root user^^ (you usually do btw). Just use whatever you like, and if you want to learn more about GNU/Linux distros, read a book. |
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As I said, Debian runs well on my mini, better in my opinion than OS X (quicker, and fewer hangs). It's less glossy than some other distros; personally, I like that. I don't use it all the time; I'm also very happy with Ubuntu, Arch, and with almost all other distros I've tried. If you prefer something else to Debian, fine. But don't you think "unmitigated disaster" is going a bit far? After all, any linux distro is a bargain at the price! |
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I used to run Debian on several computers in my house. None of them is still running. All have been upgraded to Slackware 12.x Big trouboe with Debian is (imho) that after a short while, when the new version is running) the old version is ditched completely. All repositories are wiped out and if you wish to upgrade part of your (eg Sarge) system, you will only find support for the newer (in my case Lenny) version. Try to install Seamonkey from source. Won't go. Debian have their own rules, their own libraries, their own kind of people. Debian are the Master Distribution. |
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Sometimes, Debian users are too much involved with their OS. Linux is not a religion. It's just a way to get things done. At least, that's what it was developed for. |
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MTK358 said he hated Debian too. Fine. He didn't whine about it in the forum, he tried something different, and found Arch. I like Debian, but also run Slackware, Arch, Ubuntustudio, and Sabayon. That's one of the nice things about linux: choice. Choice to use a different 'flavor' or make a distribution into exactly what you want. But it won't happen magically because you whine about it. |
Now what was that saying again....oh yes:
"Ubuntu,the ancient African word for can't configure Debian". And as for the 'knee-jerk' reaction to criticizing Debian,start a thread criticizing Slackware and it's package management choices and see the response you get. As has been pointed out already,find another distro you can cope with. |
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Anyway, you probably already got a conclusion from this thread. |
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Re: What's up with Debian
I just saw that this thread is still open. Since I just installed Squeeze and find it okay (though not without bugs), I might as well say some final words and ask the administrators to close the thread. As for bugs, the installer on the live DVD was in black and white instead of red and blue, which meant that highlighted entries disappeared which was confusing. Also it took some nudging to install without bootloader (I installed on an external disk and chrooted grub legacy onto it from Ubuntu). As for the flyspeck fonts, they can be much improved by opening Appearance > Fonts > Details and choosing Subpixel rendering and "slight" hinting (whatever that is). After the install I had no Internet access because the "managed" entry in /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf is set to false instead of true by default (a small thing, but it cost me half an hour of Googling which could be better spent). And of course I had to compile vlc (vlc-debian.1.1.7-3.tar.gz from Launchpad, which will actually work after first complaining about libvlc-dev and dependencies which were not in the build-deps), but since I did that in Ubuntu too I don't hold that against Debian.
Installing without root account now works; I get a functional sudo (albeit more restrictive than in Ubuntu - sooner or later I'll want the root account). Also I installed the nonfree firmware because I also have it in Ubuntu (more of it actually), and the Microsoft fonts. And yes, I am using Firefox - Iceweasel would instantly identify me as a Debian user, likely the only Debian user among my provider's IP addresses, which is against all privacy (Yes, I have heard of user agent strings. I am not entering into a discussion about this, I don't want Iceweasel, period). So when all is said, Debian Squeeze is usable (and a relief from the whirlwind of Ubuntu updates with a new kernel every few weeks), but for a distribution which prides itself on its stability and security, I find it a little rough around the edges (I hear the installer problems are going to be fixed). In case this thread is actually closed (which it should be), thanks to everybody for participating. |
We don't close solved threads here.
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Hmmm, I was able to do a Debian installed on an old G3 iMac without much hassle. Though, I do admit I did a netinst using ethernet and added only the programs I needed. I believe Squeeze had just came out as testing, and I still have the machine but hardly use it anymore.
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Right now I have Slackware running in a dualboot next to OSX in my Hackintosh PC.
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But as always, YMMV. |
Hmm. I'll admit to being a bit rusty on the installer - the last two times I used debootstrap - but exactly where do you say there's less choice with the Ubuntu one?
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Get the Ubuntu standard CD and try to set up a system without desktop, but with mail-server and SSH-server. Or try to install Maverick (in my eyes somewhat like Testing) or Natty (Unstable?) with a Lucid-CD (Stable?).
I always use the businesscard-CD for all my installs, with choosing the expert option. Can't get more options. Of course you can use the Ubuntu alternate-CD, but that uses basically the Debian-installer. |
Fair enough. Those are all things I've never wanted to do.
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I usually install Debian Sid with the net install image. The only time I had an issue was when the installer would let me choose Grub Legacy, then force me to use Grub 2 after giving me the choice not too. I've done the same type of install on my old Mac G4 without any issues. I've never actually sat down to use Ubuntu for 10 min, but I didn't really care for it.
Aren't the Ubuntu releases similar to Debian Sid? I remember comparing the repos one time and saw some packages in Debian Sid newer, some in Ubuntu were newer, a lot were the same. I've heard people having issues updating to new releases of Ubuntu. I like with Sid I can upgrade everything without waiting for a full release.. |
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Sid gets new packages from debian experimental. There is a whole extra layer of testing compared to the way that ubuntu includes whatever they have updated. Ubuntu takes sid, then adds whatever they want. That is the 'alpha1' version of whatever the next version of ubuntu will be, and its officially in the 'testing' phase. Ubuntu normally add the newest kernel they can find, the newest xorg and various other bit and pieces, and if they are buggy, hope that an upstream fix is released before the offical release date (as far as I know, ubuntu doesnt do a huge amount of 'fixing' themselves, the software engineers ubuntu has normally work on doing other ubuntu-only stuff or modding software to suit ubuntu). That is why ubuntu can have newer version of some software, whatever newest software has been included in the aplha1 which sid hasnt got yet. Some stuff the same, software that ubuntu has taken from sid and there hasnt been a newer version come down from experimental, or software that ubuntu has included a newer version than sid had on making the alpha1 release but sid has caught up. Some stuff is newer in sid, normally software than ubuntu hasnt changed from sid but a newer version has come down to sid during the testing phase. Ubuntu used to be far more like sid, but as time goes on they are getting further apart. *edit- opps, yes, I should have put thaty in. TobiSGD is right, the LTS versions are based on testing not sid |
Debian installations have always been painful on my laptop, especially getting wireless to work. That doesn't stop it from being the best Linux distribution in the world IMO.
No one is forcing you to choose Debian. There are other Linux distributions available that are "user-friendly." I have found that many people disenchanted with Debian expect it to be preconfigured out of the box, like Ubuntu or Mint. |
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