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Old 12-27-2012, 12:28 AM   #16
rootaccess
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Well. I do understand that the average joe could not even look at a terminal screen let alone want to understand anything without a GUI. But I am always striving for that next level as there is always a next level and more money to be made as well. When I mentioned other things going on, it is simply that I want to be human. I workout about 1.5 hours 4 times a week and even thinking of switching to a full 7 day routine because of the constant sitting. The problem is I dont want to develop any kyphosis. My posture already is not that great but not horrible either. I work my back hard with deadlifts and other upper back exercises and stretch out my pecs and back. However, alot of times I do STAND just to study linux, literally a nightmare believe me..its getting hard for me to move forward. At first, I was sitting and sitting and that was fine but it wasn't until somewhat pointed that I'm "hunched" that I realized its because of the computer. Then I also noticed that it is absolutely horrible for your prostate to just sit all day. I'm 30 years old and my PSA is 0.5 but I feel alot better when I just don't sit. I even notice a total body difference after a workout. Everything functions and feels so much better that I ask myself if it is even worth it to continue dealing with linux. Because I know concrete finishers make $250 bucks cash a job that is no longer than 4-5 hours or so. And I get my exercise all in 1 shot. So I'm torn on the fence because I'm very "human" and like to be outdoors but I also love linux. Just not sure. I know that after my upcoming semester which starts in 2 weeks for RH network administration and security, I will probably not be able to abandon or "pull back" from all this as I would have invested too much time. I already feel like I invested alot of time. Regardless if I did labor work, I know I would still find myself messing around with linux on my own personal time. I guess I like the abstraction but it just becomes too much. The real problem is that I still need to learn so much before I could even work. And then I need to work for free just to start making some change.
 
Old 12-27-2012, 12:59 AM   #17
Ztcoracat
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It's great to hear that you exercise.

I too heard that it is really bad to just sit all day.
Bet you'll be glad when spring comes.


Quote:
Everything functions and feels so much better that I ask myself if it is
even worth it to continue dealing with linux.
This is the big debate that you have. I see now your dilemma. (problem offering 2 possibilities)
This is enough to drive anyone a little nuts-

Your health is essential and if you don't have your good health IMO you'll literally feel awful physically-
Whatever you do don't start slouching on a regular bases. Try to sit up straight. Slouching is very bad for the lumbar spine.

It appears that you have a major decision on what to do.

Try to make it thru your upcoming semester. During your next semester a door may open for you with promising possibilities. Sometimes good things pop up out of no where!


I wish you the best regardless of what you decide

Last edited by Ztcoracat; 12-27-2012 at 01:04 AM. Reason: Inspiring thought
 
Old 12-27-2012, 03:19 AM   #18
rootaccess
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Yes my two favorite seasons are spring and fall. I hate summer because in the valley, it gets super hot. I like to do my cardio work outside. I guess I will just have to make this decision. I know I need my exercise but the truth is, that doesn't make me money either. A workaround for continuing in this field is to basically exercise twice as much on the cardio. The weights I never change. But the cardio stuff like walking, sprinting can be increased.

Without any formal experience, will an intern be my only way in to get a real job? Another thing is, I know you mentioned a good question to ask myself is if I can accept a low salary to start. Well, the truth is, I don't think I can because an intern is one thing but working and making 20-30k a year when I should be making 80-120k is a huge blow to me. And I don't know how long that is going to last either. I'm not saying 120k is what admins start at, that is usually a senior salary. But anything below 50-60k is going to hurt.
 
Old 12-27-2012, 01:42 PM   #19
jefro
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Never learn commands, you can't. No one can. Learn ideas and use man pages to get technical details. No one can know it all. I used to work at a place where people had dual Doctor degrees and triple Master degrees and they didn't know it all. They could only be good at a small part of the entire process.

You should do what you like to do also. If it is not fun then move on to some job that is either more fun or suitable.
 
Old 12-27-2012, 02:55 PM   #20
rootaccess
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Good points. Never learn commands as they change or are different on some distro, but just learn ideas such as NFS,NAS,SAN,LDAP,DNS,etc. Every system might implement things a bit differently but its generally the same. It just annoyed me how 'setfacl' changed just as it came out. That's what pisses me off. And ACL is something I may need to use alot, it isn't mplayer or anything I can care less about. And the other thing is how FAST new ideas come in. Maybe I just came in so late and have to learn alot of stuff compared to a senior admin that gradually learned as new things came along.

I know some people complain about how config files are spread throughout certain distros of linux. That doesn't seem to ever bother me, because I don't care what distro I am on, I just use one simple line.

# find / -name 'httpd*' (or 'apache*') | less

On rpm systems I just use rpm -q and it's subsequent syntax (a,l,f, etc)

Last edited by rootaccess; 12-27-2012 at 02:56 PM.
 
Old 12-27-2012, 03:22 PM   #21
onebuck
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by rootaccess View Post
Hi onebuck, nice post. A few things. I would have loved to have been born when you were...because in the 70s, UNIX was new and pretty basic. There wasnt all this stuff thats out there today. Aside from networking, all these weird applications, virtualization, SAN, NAS, XEN, and a thousand other things I havent bothered reading into yet since Ive been so swamped with learning other things I need. So you worked through the entire evolution of UNIX and Linux so that was easier than for someone like me who comes in 2010 and has to learn EVERYTHING.
I provided this quote for that reason. Read it for understanding;
Quote:
"Knowledge is of two kinds. We Know a subject ourselves, or we know where we can find information upon it."- Samuel Johnson
Back then we had to learn in steps. Each of us would read, read then experiment then read again. Knowing where to look for information to re-enforce your abilities is important. Sure you may retain some information but when in doubt learn to use resources. We are not in a 'Limitless' world but in a real time world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rootaccess View Post
Don't get me wrong, I dont know all the commands or everything, absolutely not. I learn all the time and actually I love learning. I was learning BSD for about a week reading the doc all day and realized I am wasting my time even though I'd love to learn it, I dont have time for it since Linux is the main player in the corporate/nix world anyway. Everything seems to be moving towards RedHat, or so my RedHat instructor claims. He mentions BSD is ok to learn, wont hurt but its better to focus on one system. That makes sense but there are also other linux systems. I know Debian but not SUSE or Solaris which is UNIX anyway. BSD has 3 firewalls that don't resemble iptables in any way. I think the problem is once I know I have to learn all this stuff, it no longer is fun and makes me want to throw my computer in the trash. Because they just expect so damn much!
Personally, I have no reason to get certifications, no need. I feel your expectations are to high. Learn to be realistic! Certifications will not mean you will have qualifications for a particular position. Just that you were able to pass the exams for the level of the cert.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rootaccess View Post
If I do this, I just want a job working with 1 Linux system. Not 10. Either RH or if it is UNIX, then BSD ONLY. But why can't I get a job? Because I have ZERO experience, in fact, I haven't even been working ANY job for a while now..because I wanted to devote all my time to linux and plus I have other things going on. I think being physically fit is more important to me than any job so that comes first. I don't exercise for hours but I do buy healthy food and cook so that takes up a little bit of my time. So basically to HR I am pretty much a useless bag of sh!t to them as they think anyone who hasn't been working does not deserve a job. So that is pretty much my problem. Not sure what the solution is, maybe I need to intern for 10 years before I get work?
Please define one Linux System. I believe you are speaking of a server or a rack of servers. Really should think about setting your target for entry level. No one is going to hire you even with documented resume for that six figure job that was mentioned earlier with only 2 years of working experience or learning the past two years. HR does have the responsibility to fill positions with the best qualified individuals or their job would be at risk by filling positions with people who are not qualified.

My suggestion to you would be to set down without any distractions and think out what YOU want. Not what someone has mentored or suggested that YOU should do. Please remember that to have dreams is one thing but to actually fulfilling is another. Even headhunters would tell you to get qualifications and experience. Be creative with gaining experience. You can get a interim job to meet your immediate needs then work with a charitable organization to gain experience on their systems. Even there you will probably intern with someone who can help to learn what is necessary. It can be rewarding to help other people while you depend on the interim job to provide support.

Be realistic and prepare yourself for the future job market. For example if you have a Liberal Arts degree then one would not apply for a Engineering position without proper education. Academia is nice but if you are not qualified then the prospects look poor.
 
Old 12-27-2012, 05:58 PM   #22
Ztcoracat
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Quote:
"Knowledge is of two kinds. We Know a subject ourselves, or we know where we can find information upon it."- Samuel Johnson
That's a good statement. In fact if there is something that we lack in than we should go and find that knowledge/information to obtain that wisdom.

The one good thing that we do have available to us is increased knowledge. This is without a doubt; (IMO) worth taking advantage of-
 
Old 12-27-2012, 06:07 PM   #23
rootaccess
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Good point, onebuck. When I said 1 system, I meant let it be just RedHat, don't make it Debian, RedHat, Centos, Ubuntu, Solaris, BSD, SUSE in the same network. I know there is little differences but the same commands will not work between certain systems, its just funny. Also about the six figure salary, I think senior admins should be paid this much. Not only is the work is mission critical but there is so much involved, even at my level I can say that it is overwhelming and people that know me can't even hold a candle and mention that I should be making BANK with what I know, yet I constantly tell them Im not good enough and no one ever is for any corporation. There are people out there making six figure incomes doing nothing but ripping people off out of their fat lazy offices. I just think they don't pay admins enough. When I was 22, I was an undercover security officer at a corp making $12/hour and they were going to promote me to making $34k a year but I was living in central california where it was much cheaper than Los Angeles but the job was super easy. Then you compare that to some of these jobs that are paying the same $40k/year for doing all this work, it makes no sense. I did speak to some people that say most jobs are 70-80k a year but you need all this experience. So where am I to get this experience from? I can only interim for so long. I still need to work and make money to live, let alone spend some more time learning everything else everyone ever developed that's been ported to linux, since that is what is required in the corporate world...
 
Old 12-27-2012, 09:41 PM   #24
sundialsvcs
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Ahh, youth ...
 
Old 12-27-2012, 10:46 PM   #25
damgar
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My experience has been that anything that pays worth a damn is constantly evolving. I no longer do anything with tech except to help implement whatever gadget or software our small but growing office needs. I started selling/managing construction services... roofs, painting, floors, fencing, etc. Even in roofing I have to learn something new every 2 months, not because roofing has changed, but because insurance companies and mortgage companies are constantly changing their methods, their estimating procedures, tweaking standard software, etc, etc. When I installed last mile equipment, there was something newer, better, faster, more complicated every 6 months, or the process changed, or the OS got upgraded. Life just moves fast. The trick is to be well enough versed in the basics that the new stuff is just an inconvenience. The changes and being able to adapt are what will make you more desirable and more likely to make better money and advance. Giving up the climb before you've left the basement is a sure fire way to never get anywhere. Just my two cents.
 
Old 12-27-2012, 11:30 PM   #26
rootaccess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damgar View Post
My experience has been that anything that pays worth a damn is constantly evolving. I no longer do anything with tech except to help implement whatever gadget or software our small but growing office needs. I started selling/managing construction services... roofs, painting, floors, fencing, etc. Even in roofing I have to learn something new every 2 months, not because roofing has changed, but because insurance companies and mortgage companies are constantly changing their methods, their estimating procedures, tweaking standard software, etc, etc. When I installed last mile equipment, there was something newer, better, faster, more complicated every 6 months, or the process changed, or the OS got upgraded. Life just moves fast. The trick is to be well enough versed in the basics that the new stuff is just an inconvenience. The changes and being able to adapt are what will make you more desirable and more likely to make better money and advance. Giving up the climb before you've left the basement is a sure fire way to never get anywhere. Just my two cents.
Very true. I guess I'll just accept the fact that everything is changing no matter what. Even Doctors and surgeons have to go to seminars all the time as new advancements have taken place and thus have to re-learn how to do certain procedures. But you are right, if you know the basics, then it is just a matter of adapting to the new inconveniences. I am still learning most of the basics, havent gotten to LDAP, Kerberos, Virtualization, SAN,NAS, etc yet. I think the main focus is on the basics of these ideas, and the scripting in as many languages. I have definitely invested a lot of time and energy into this. Maybe in 2 years I can look back and laugh...
 
Old 01-21-2013, 09:44 PM   #27
m1rr0rm3
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@rootaccess

To address your second posting, most companies job listings are written by an HR rep who is simply stringing together technical jargon that they have heard.

What you need is a "head hunter" to get you a job. Do not falter in your search for a job. I too have years of work under my belt but because I am not certified as a RHCE people do not respect 10+ years of experience vs. a piece of paper.

So I am going to get certified to get a job and paying to get a "head hunter".

- Chris
 
Old 01-23-2013, 02:22 PM   #28
sundialsvcs
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My good friend ... take heart.

My parents can still attest that, when The World Book Encyclopedia volume "Ci-Cz" is opened, it will still fall-open on its own to "Computers." This is an early-1970's edition of that book.

I got started in this crazy infatuation of mine half-a-decade before the first "personal computer" was invented. (And if you weren't there, weren't born yet or what have you, then ... too bad ... you missed it.)

And ... never-you-mind how-many years later ... I find that I am still fascinated by computing-machines. I still love to figure out ways to make this hunk of silicon do something.

Having worked with several operating-systems before (hey... one of them was OS/360... what's it to ya? I'm an original geek!), I was naturally drawn to Linux ...

... and it positively kicked my butt. I can honestly say that learning about it made me sweat, and that I'll never say now that I "know it."

But I persevered through Linux From Scratch, because I wanted to, and to this day I eagerly let this system "teach me, and teach me, and teach me."

And, oh by-the-by, pay me.

I'm still fascinated with making these machines "tick," and I'm still making good money at it. I will never complain about having had the privilege to make a career out of my (life-long!!) hobby.

So sorry that you say that you "wasted" two years of your life. I consider never-mind what-multiple of that number of years "delightfully and engagingly spent!" And, yeah: I mean that.

"Do what you love, and the money will(?) follow." I can say: that's true.

But, hey, "digital computer programming" might not be what you truly "love" to do. (And if it's not... you owe it to yourself to discover, "rather sooner than later," what you do. Otherwise you're just gonna be miserable, and there ain't no paycheck in this world worth that.)

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 01-23-2013 at 02:29 PM.
 
Old 01-23-2013, 03:48 PM   #29
foodown
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Dude, rootaccess, you need to calm down.

It sounds like you have learned a lot.

Write up a resume that says not much but simultaneously expresses that you have deep understanding. Many people, especially entry-level, make the mistake of trying to cram an alphabet soup of every acronym they've ever encountered onto their resume. I can tell you now, those go right into the bin.

My resume that got me hired when I had no professional experience said something this:
Quote:
>>Network Administration<<
Understands and Implements Physical and Data-Link Layer Networks
- Cable Assembly / Wiring
- Wiring Closets, Racks, Raised Floors / Cable Bridges
- 802.11x Access Point Implementation
- Spanning Trees
Understands and Implements Network Layer Protocols
- Binary Math
- Subnetting
- IPv4 and IPv6 Routing Protocols and Static Routing
- Dedicated Lines, Point-to-Point, Frame Relay
- LAN and WAN Connectivity Troubleshooting
- Tunneling / VPN
Understands and Implements Application Layer Traffic Shaping
- QoS Routing
- End-to-End Network Optimization

>>>Linux System Administration<<<
- Linux Tool Chains
- Native Compilers, Cross-Compilers, Static and Dynamic Shared Objects
- Has Built Multiple Systems “From Scratch” (From Source Code, No Distro)
- High Level of Facility With Basic System Administration Tasks
- System Resource Utilization Management, User and Quota Management, Process Management, etc.
- Creating and Automating Bourne Shell Scripts for System Maintenance
- Running / Verifying Full and Incremental Backups per Backup Schedule
- Good Familiarity with Configuring and Running Most Common Server Applications like Apache, Sendmail, BIND, and Many More ...
- Also Comfortable Working with Solaris 8, 9, and 10, BSD, and Others
The interview is the key. Communicate understanding over a desire to mention as many things as possible in the resume, then come across as mentally sharp in an interview, and the job is yours. Trust me, those two things are actually harder to find than experience these days.

Also, understand that you will not be getting a Systems job right off the gun with no experience. You need to be applying for 'NOC' type jobs in Linux shops.

Even small Linux shops have people monitoring their systems, running backups, and answering the phone for trouble reports 24x7. Be that guy. I can tell you from experience that these jobs are interesting, engaging, not very stressful, and pay a living wage. (In Cali, 60 to 70 sounds about right for starters.)

Finally, I would encourage you not to fixate on your rage against the "machine" or how "unfair" things are. These kinds of meditations will not get you anywhere.

Working in IT is not Disneyland, and it's not always easy, and sometimes it sucks, but if you're the kind of person who on some level enjoys working with this kind of technology (and it sounds like you are), then it sure beats working in food service.

Last edited by foodown; 01-24-2013 at 02:49 AM. Reason: shard -> sharp
 
Old 01-23-2013, 09:58 PM   #30
comcastuser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rootaccess View Post
Hi all. Some of you may have read some posts that I wanted to become an administrator. I even took official Red Hat classes in a Red Hat Academy. I started linux 2 years ago, I learned some security/hacking stuff, then learned Debian and fell in love with it. I had nothing going for me so I thought it would be wise to become an admin. I put myself through so much stress, sacrificed so much, spent 12-16 hours a day on the computer learning all I could and in the end, I just have to say that I can't take it anymore because its too DYNAMIC. Everything keeps changing, the commands change, the syntax. I even had to email the Red Hat instructor telling him that the commands listed in the Red Hat PDF's are not working and after spending 2 full days on ACL's, I finally found a workaround.

The problem is that what I just learned will be obsolete again soon and even if it won't for a while, is just 0.000000000001% of all the things I am going to have to deal with. I should have never made the decision to become an admin and as much as I know or think I know in this game, it is never enough. I cannot seem to ever learn enough to get a job as the requirements are absolutely insane, let alone have 0 experience or any certs yet, either. I like to be active and workout and this just seems very dehumanizing to me.

Today just seems like reality check after I got off the phone with someone who told me that life is too short and time is too crucial to waste and that is what I feel like happened. I'm currently not working and haven't been for a long time as I wanted to devote all my time to Linux and in the end realized that its an endless cycle of death. The system is tough on its own to trouble shoot. repositories are not what I consider a problem, its the commands, the syntaxes, the way everything evolves just really sucks.

Maybe if the commands were to stay put for the rest of my life, I could learn this stuff and actually just do my job. But after reading countless admin stories, I just don't think this is for me. Anyone else feel like this?

Shawn
I get occasional moments of despair like this, too, but here's one fact that is inescapable:

All jobs that aren't being outsourced or automated are becoming just like this. Everywhere. Every day it's something new, something major to master, and then before you know it it's obsolete and you've got to get your official and street creds in something new and update your old official and street creds to boot. It's lifelong learning hopped up on meth and steroids.

Then you reach 50 and corporate America bans you from the workplace anyway.
 
  


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