ubuntu rant!
 

It must be me, but I can't work out why!

I haven't had any real problems with linux - well ok, I'll rephrase that, I've usually managed to get done, what I need to do without any problems.

Since the recent "changes" in the kanotix world, I've been struggling like hell.

why? well, when "things" went "pear shaped", the only distro I had to hand so that I wasn't left without a working system/gui was the newly arrived cover disc that contained Ubuntu 6.10 (erm, I think they call it "edgy" - though right now, I suspect thats because you end up on the edge of your seat screaming at your monitor like a complete loon - I know thats what it's making me do).

I've been trying to dump it and install gentoo (which I previously had installed a while ago) though for reasons that I can't fathom out, the install keeps "failing". I'm not sure if it's me or whether theres something different about the gentoo since "they" developed their GUI installer.

If I could work out how to get the damn disc booted so that it starts in the traditional CLI interface from the boot disc then I can still look at the install guide.

So, why am I ranting about Ubuntu?

Well, my system only needs 2 user accounts, me and my partner Clare. If I try to "adduser", for an account for Clare the f****r won't open it keeps erroring me with some crap about kstartconfig not starting. I've never had this with any of the 5 or 6 other distros I've had installed.

Also, "they" insist on using "sudo". Which I hate with a f*****g passion. Sure you can enable the root account in ubuntu/kubuntu, and of course, you can give the root account it's password, but you don't seem to be able to get rid of f*****g sudo.

Next, well the ubuntu version of VI/VIM seems to do some really strange things. VI/VIM normally, well I start it with a command and then I just hit "insert" to do the edit, then I hit Esc and type :wq which isn't exactly stretching it to it's utmost ability (pretty basic, I'm sure you'd agree), but for reasons I can't "suss", I have to hit insert everytime I want to change a single character. What pile of crap!


My system has always been a little "fussy" with the "nv" generic nvidia driver, and I find that I have to get the proprietary "nvidia" driver installed as soon as I can. Bloody ubuntu will upgrade a kernel fine, but that means that I will usually have to re-install the nvidia driver - you try to do that with ubuntu. Yes, I'd happily agree that I might be either missing something or making a "complete pigs ear" of it - but I just do the same things that I've done for a couple of years now and those "things" don't seem to work - well not with bloody Ubuntu.

so Ok mr Ubuntu. it's really great that you're trying really hard to offer a new user a "smooth" first "linux experience", but how about the rest of us, so we can "turn off" these great (alledgedly) "ease of use" features and use it like a normal f*****g distro?

Ok, sorry if anyone feels offended, I just needed to get that "off my chest". I think it's probably time to take a step back and see if I can work out what the "problem" is (for the 'nth time).

Seasons greetings to all at LQ.

regards

John

Oh and before I take that step back it'd be really great if I could turn off these VVV annoying system notification/chimes that sound everytime I get a dialogue box of some sort opening.

If I tell "it" (usually KDE in my case) to stop all system notifications I still end up with the "bing/bong" of the dialogue opening/closing.

Hence, thus far, my view of K/Ubuntu is still that it's rubbish. Ok, yes, very well thought out, with lots of effort gone into its development etc etc, but that doesn't change my attitude.

I'm sure it'd be great to be proved wrong - but right now, I can't see how that might occur!

TTFN

John

Hi bigjohn
Allow that you are much more experienced than me in using Linux..
I also cannot abide the need to type "su" and a password for nearly everything of consequence, without a choice of "being root" other than via "sudo su" and confined to a shell box. I also want to use graphical editors as root, and cut and paste script stuff. I was also spoiled by the (excellent) Gentoo how-to manuals.

Much of the answer was Mepis 6.0, which comes with the Ubuntu engine "under the hood", a KDE desktop, and most of the annoyances removed. :) Synaptic package manager was my lovely toy. The repositories are Ubuntu-rigid, but you can change that, and also run into trouble trying.

This is not to say it is all wonderful. You still have to work a bit to put in Nvidia drivers, obtained from the site, and follow instructions. (I need openGL too) You still have to fetch libdvdcss yourself for no-nonsense region-free media playback. Install Xine and ditch Kaffiene. Ubuntu norms are uptight in that area.

There is probably not much that can catch or beat a hand-tuned Gentoo, but you have to invest about as much learning Gentoo as learning Linux. I am not good with that. I am a user who wants to run the PC apps as useful tools, not a OS expert who gets kicks from tweaking scripts.

This Mepis 6.0, not modified much, is still there, despite that I am so such a distro-tart that I have 11 partitions of tried-out others, generally ditched for p**sing me off about one thing or another. I am also sure that I can match most "pigs ear" totals, as I have a gift for exposing the weak feature of any distro at twenty paces!

The season's wishes to you too
:)

Wow, sorry you're having such a problem with it.

It works perfectly for me.

bigjohn come over to Sidux. If you ran Kanotix and visited the forum you will notice lots of names:

sidux - New Star in the Linux Galaxy :: sidux.com :: debian based live cd development Upgrade a Debian Sid System to Sidux
http://sidux.com/index.php?module=pn...upgradeKanotix

Installing Debian Sid and convert it to Sidux
http://sidux.com/index.php?module=pn...stallDebianSid

Mepis at home--no problems
Kubuntu at work on laptop--no problems.

Sudo??--everyone has sudo. Not grasping that issue--don't use it if you don't like it.
You don't like disabled root in Ubuntu, then enable it (or install Mepis)

I recommend one question at a time--it's a lot easier for us to help you....<<Edit to fix grammar>>

Well I did actually try that craigevil. When I did my d-u last weekend, that was when it all went to a sack of s**t! I'm not sure as to why it did, but it left me with an unbootable system.

When I tried re-installing the last kanotix disc I had (now not got one), and then doing the d-u to sidux it failed saying that there was too many errors. I looked yesterday, and it would appear that at the moment theres no iso for sidux.

I wonder if theres a way of converting Ubuntu to sidux ???

Sure, I was just "venting my spleen" a bit - with the apparent overload of frustration. I mean, it does really appear to me that Ubuntu is very restricted/uptight as to what it wants to allow the user to do. Why that might be, I can't fathom.

It does seem that the definition of success with a distro is whether it will allow you to do what you are aiming at - without too many hassles. Which in "my book" means that it's either Debian Sid (previously diguised as Kanotix, now Sidux though I haven't managed to suss that one yet) and Gentoo, which I only "binned" because I got in too far over my head (meddling with ~X86 packages and mixing them with the normal "stable" ones).

I'd like to get back to Gentoo, because after playing with debian related distros, I much prefer portage to apt. Though I can't yet, work out how to boot the live CD so that it doesn't start the X frontend - CLI install isn't an issue so long as I can open a different screen to view the docs (last time I'd printed the whole lot out).

Hum? Whether to try Mepis or not, I just can't make up my mind!

Well I'm definitely considering Mepis, but this Ubuntus' got to go it's driving me up the wall.

And no, not everyone "has" sudo. Yes it's available as a choice in lots of distros, but very few "force" it on you like the *buntu's do, particularly that you don't seem to be able to disable it without screwing the system.

Oh and it wasn't questions "per se", more of a case of very many hours over the last week trying to get my system back to where it was before the "kanotix split", and being "knocked back" time, after time, after time. At the same time in the hope that someone else might have been banging their head against the wall in a similar way, but might have achieved a solution before I did - thats what LQ is all about ??? well I believe so.

right, back to digging around then!

regards

John

Hi bigjohn

I have found a little something which might be right up both our streets.
Have a look at "Sabayon", which used to be known as RR4 and RR64 (Litrix??)

This is a Gentoo-based thing gone naughty, with special hardware detection that threatens to have a Gentoo desktop up in 5 minutes. Its also got an "Install" button. It comes with all the NVIDIA, ATI, and other ""closed code" drivers fitted, with a button to "opt out" if you are are fussy about non-GPL'd code.

It comes with libdvdcss, and a warning to stay away if you are an uptight American.

It comes in two sizes, these being:-
SabayonLinux-x86-3.2.iso (3,108MB),
SabayonLinux-x86_64-3.2.iso (3,465MB)

The 3.2 Mini-Edition is stripped of "every duplicated, useless or server-oriented package" to 698Mb iso that burns to a bootable live CD. It comes with an (changeable) unloved orange theme, and KDE default, with choices.

http://www.sabayonlinux.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2643

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=sabayon

Of course, once installed, you can use Portage and "emerge" to recompile your kernel and packages to choice. Since the whole point of Gentoo is you compile optimised to your hardware, this is not for the folk who just want click-and-go. I guess it is to the official Gentoo what Sidux is to Debian. Sidux is so..ooo tempting, but right now, that mini-edition kinda-Gentoo is downloading for me.
It can live in the Ubuntu partitions I have just trashed.

And if craigevil's plug for Sidux is worth a go, the partitions that used to home my disastrous SUSE 10.1 will do. ( I know there is SUSE 10.2, but I am going to stay away and lick my wounds awhile).
Maybe I shall use Christmas Day to play with it. :)

So far there isn't a Sidux iso, hopefully in another week or so. Just use the Debian Etch netinstall or the lastest Kanotix 2006-01 then use h2's d-u script to update.

I left Ubuntu because of their talk of NOT giving us a Choice as to install beryl and it's NEW 3D Modules.
They are suppose to be setting it at default PERIOD...

I'm using Mandriva and all of the same 3D Nodule effects.
Why if I left Ubuntu because of this is quite simple.

Mandriva gives me this CHOICE at install if to use them or not.
I don't have any problem with Prop Modules just not being given the Choice to use them or not...

I agree that if your Logged in as root after enabling this feature in Ubuntu/Kubuntu you shouldn't have to Freakin Sudo or SU a Freakin thing.
Hence the reason of using /root to begin with.

They tell you that you don't need a GUI /root Login to do what you need for the things you need to do while using the OS, Now yes this goes for almost all distros but this is besides the point.

What if your tryingto install a Game or Program like Quake 2, 3, 4, or DOOM3.
You need to be able to Copy the pak files into the games directories or your lets face it "SCREWED"...

No one has ever been able to tell me how to do that without having a /root GUI Login.
And getting them to tell you is like trying to Get a Classified Document or Something.
It pratically takes a Freakin act of Congress to get to instructions.

Yes while I do us Ubuntu 32bit with my Mandriva 64bit OS.
Dual Booted on the same HD, it's only Because it's the Only 32bit System that'll play nice with my Mandriva OS.

I also agree that distros need to be setup more like Mepis, User Login, /root Login.
It makes things a whole lot simpler.
And while unlike others when in /root you don't need to sudo or su a Freakin thing.

I'd just thought I rant a little myself.
Thanks for listing...;)

Just to let everyone here know, Ubuntu one night decided to start NOT Playing so nice with my Mandriva Setup.
So I simply Dual booted Mandriva One 2007 Gnome/Mandriva One 2007 KDE.

No compat probs like with trying to do the same with other distros.
And I have the best of both Worlds as to the two Desktops.

Trying to get KDE to install in Ubuntu like it use too JUST Plain doesn't work anymore.
And in my opinion Kubuntu Adept STINKS.

That being said Mandriva ALL THE WAY for me.

Not that what started as a Ubuntu rant should expand into install instructions for an alternative, but that Sabayon (sorta Gentoo) that is going into the trashed Ubuntu partitions has so many (sweet) options that I suggest anyone trying it should have a pen and paper handy, try all F1 to F8, and put together one big command before you let it rip.
:)

Haha, that was an awesome rant. My advice (for every problem ever): use Slackware.

What with that package manager that doesn't seem to check dependencies ?
:rolleyes:

Sure I know, it would teach me a lot (As it that, on top of all the stuff I've got in my head over the last four or so years isn't enough!).

No, it so happens, that I've managed to install the Sidux. I found out what I was doing wrong.

It would seem that you can indeed, install kanotix and then just run h2's script, but it doesn't want to work if you've installed a fresh version of 2004-05 kanotix.

It did seem quite convoluted, but I ended up installing the 2004-05 kanotix, so I could download the 2006 RC4 kanotix. Install that over the top of the 2005-04 and then run h2's script. It did take a while to get the downloads of the packages that the script wanted to update - but that had more to do with the debian mirrors getting completely hammered during the evening time.

The Sidux seems fine. It's offering me the various choices that I wanted. Though I'm gonna keep an eye on one or two of the suggestions i.e. sabayon looks like an interesting idea, especially if it uses portage which I much prefer to apt, even though apt is good (and both beat the living shit out of the pisspoor RPM!)

regards

John

bigjohn , yeah the older versions of Kanotix will not dist-upgrade very cleanly, the 2006 RC4 was the way to go; you can install Debian Etch and dist-upgrade to Sid/Sidux that way which I understand is actually easier. Head on over to the Sidux forum or IRC if you have any more problems.

Congrats on finally get things worked out.

As long as Gentoo is considered there is no reason to use Gentoo install disk whatsoever. I install from Knoppix and haven't even bothered to download "their" installation disks. (I always have a fresh Knoppix handy.)
But if you absolutely need (yeah, why?) to install from LiveCD just boot it with nox option.

Strange, because I know that this is possible, but I never managed to decipher the instructions myself. Though I seem to remember something about having enough space so that it will download into it's own / partition ???

Cos if thats the case I'm screwed with my current setup as I'm currently using /boot, /swap, / and /home which are all configured at primary partitions - and that's not gonna change until I can work out how in hells name I can make my external hdd work so I can make backups - it took me nearly 3 weeks to copy all my CD's again after I screwed up my system last time!. Or if I can't suss out the damn external hdd, I'll install the disc into my system and try to work out the best way to make use of it there! (maybe with a backup partition and a seperate / for gentoo and run both Sidux and Gentoo).

regards

John

Your external HDD may work with Knoppix without any fiddle. Knoppix is real great if it comes to h/w recognition. So you may be able to boot from Knoppix, make that backup and carry on Gentoo installation. You may even retain your /home. Just make sure you create your new user with same UID then to avoid permission problems.

Hum? not such a bad idea - I'll just have to make a few notes before hand then i.e. user ID's etc etc is there anything else I'd need to note down, because the /boot, /swap and / don't matter, it's only the /home stuff that I'd need to retain.

Though if I put the hdd out of the external case in the system, that'd "kill two birds with one stone" though it might take a bit more looking into/thinking about.

regards

John

From Ubuntu to Gentoo. This lovely rant almost turned into a distro beauty contest :)

Gentoo can be a real fiddle. The weak point has always been the install. It is the extraordinary needs of that install probably motivates the very excellent manual of install instructions. Once the beast is safely in there, life gets better, even if you have to wait for any new package to compile.

If you want nearly instant Gentoo (with attitude, codecs, closed source drivers, and hardware detection that even surpasses Knoppix), then consider to have it the lazy way with Sabayon Linux. I tried the 3.2 Mini version that fits on a 700Mb CD, but I understand the 3.2 DVD has software to suit most folk's desires. The point here is, afterward, you can use "emerge" and "unmerge" and all the other Gentoo ways to arrive at your choice setup. If also you have tweaked the USE flags, and configured your kernel optimised to your processor and hardware, the go-faster instructions and features will automatically compile into anything you install.

Knoppix is great for installing Gentoo when there is no other Linux system on the PC, but if you have one running, then there is nothing stopping you from opening a root terminal onto the desktop, and doing it all from within there. If you are really hardball, you can do it all in textmode without a GUI - but there is a better way...

Have the luxury of your GUI (KDE, whatever). Be on the internet, (even from a dialup if you have a Gentoo CD handy to avoid a huge download). Have open the Gentoo install instructions manual in a browser. You can create a boot, root and /home partition even next to the ones you already have, and copy into them the Gentoo stage files, already extracted from tarballs. CD or internet, whichever is handiest. You can use KWrite or GEdit or any editor to make the the /etc/fstab and other files you need, mostly by highlighting in the manual, then middle-click in the editor. You can chroot into the new environment in that terminal window. I watched it go on the internet, and update Portage, while I was playing Sudoku in the existing KDE. (yeah .. sad!) Fun too it is to watch a major compile going on in Konsole, while getting on with other stuff in the main screen.

If you want the Gentoo install to be the only one remaining, then Knoppix is the obvious choice, and the instructions for Knoppix are described in..
"The Gentoo Alternative Install Guide"
One glance, and you realise there is very little there that is Knoppix specific. Almost any liveCD or running distro will do. Note also that you do not have to be an expert! I just cut & pasted instructions. Be aware that the most awkward bit is getting a GUI to go at the right resolution at the start. Hand editing the cumbersome and confusing xorg.conf, and booting to test if each edit worked can be a right royal pain! Even with the Sabayon CD, you have to take care at the beginning to put in the screen resolution maximum as a boot option, or you get 1024x768, 800x600, and 640x480 as choices. Either edit xorg.conf, or start again :| Given my talent for messing up xorg.conf, I took the easy way.

I did not have it boot straight into Gentoo. Instead, I skipped running grub in Gentoo, and simply added Gentoo as a boot-up choice in my existing grub bootloader script (/boot/grub/menu.lst in this case). In the face of Ubuntu (which your Granny could install!) Mepis 6.0 (Ubuntu with some of the awkwards knocked off), SUSE 10.2 (fully repaired now, and comes with the priceless "Microsoft seal of approval" :rolleyes: ), Debian (any day now.. promise!), and the venerable Red Hat/Fedora, why do some of us continue to tangle with Gentoo? Maybe because when pressed home, the result is the performance pinnacle of a Linux installation crafted to one's own choice. Blazing fast, it makes even older machines feel modern. Yes - I would do this again, all over the ex-Ubuntu partitions!
:)

First off I'm a complete novice with basically any *nix distro; I recently installed Ubuntu 6.10 Edgy eft with great success and ease. I've had it up and running for about two weeks, until last night....I was seeding a file on Azureus so I left my puter on the web with port 6881 open (unless Azureus opens other ports!). This morning I noticed Azureus crashed and some connections to port 6881 were still open and some logging about a few attempts at possible system attacks (logging viewed via firestarter). Whatever, I ran Azureus, it crashed, my HD made a 'beep' noise. I tried a few more apps, and with all working properly I restarted my session and could not log on, no failsafe no gnome..nothing. I know for a fact I entered the info right because I received no error messages and because the normal startup process began only to quit and send me back to the login screen....I have virtually no other info about this situation.

Have any other had a similar problem?
Any ideas? My paranoia says hacked!!! But maybe its a bug?!

Now using: SUSE 10.1

From what I understand, It's actually quite unlikely that you "have been hacked". Even with "properly nailed down" windows boxes, if you start following the logs closely, you will see intrusion attempts i.e. all those windows bot's and port scans etc, to look for easy targets, open relays, etc etc.

I'm not overly worried by that sort of thing, but it's one reason that I'm not a fan of sudo. Any only has to crack 1 password, whereas with root/user it's two (and therefore easier to adopt escalating strengths of password etc).

Plus, because the *buntu's policy of apparent ease of install (admirable in their efforts) I also found that there are some things that they don't, or rather wouldn't (and hence make it difficult) want you to do.

You also mention that you've moved to SuSE10.1 - which, don't get me wrong, is good, but I got bored with dependency errors, when it came to RPM based distros (I used them for the first 3 years of "doing" linux). I would only use packages from official (OK, some "semi" official, as well) repositories and it still used to cause me some problems - which could be sorted out but were a complete PITA.

So far from it being (as GTrax alleges) a "distro beauty contest", this is more about why certain aspects of some distros have pissed me off.

Theres no doubt in my mind, that both debians apt and gentoos portage are vastly superior package management systems. Though my efforts with the *buntus, have taught me that when it comes to debian based systems, "some" of the derivative distros try to enforce policies that "some" users won't be happy with, however easy it is to install.

This Sidux, that I'm now using is one of the "newest boys in town" (for a number of reasons). It wasn't as smooth a transition as I'd hoped but I didn't use the easiest way of changing the Kanotix that I was using. Now it's installed, it's very good, it uses almost completely "proper" debian repo's/mirrors and apt seems to work in the "proper" debian way - which for the moment is fine by me.

It did cross my mind when my transition was going on, to say "bollocks" to it and go straight for gentoo (IMO, gentoos portage is better than apt - lots would disagree). Overall it was gentoo that I've found is the easiest distro to manage of all the ones I've tried in the last 5 years.

Hence I'm agreement with most of what GTrax posted. It's fair to say that "it" might not be for everyone, but if you take some time to look into the pro's and con's, plus you set your system up so that it used a separate /home (I still use the partitioning scheme I settled on when I first tried Gentoo i.e. /boot, /swap, / and /home) it means that you can pretty much change distros at will and as long as you don't allow an installer to overwrite/format/mess up the /home (and maybe take a few backups of /home just in case) then you're just installing the newer distro into / and you still have any data stuff safely located in /home.

Erm as for your Azureus issue, I'd say, probably not. i.e. lots of things can cause an app to crash. logs may well have shown you that something (bots etc) have been sniffing round your "in leg". You might get more info if you saved the log/error messages and googled with them though. Azureus is something I saw for the first time the other day. My brother (family linux bore and Linux based IT professional) was getting some TV programmes or something, and even he said that he felt that Azureus isn't as stable as it might seem, he was moaning about some weird lock up/hang issues he'd encountered when downloading multiple "things" and if a couple of the torrents (I think thats how he referred to the in feeds) paused or hung or dropped off, then sometimes it meant restarting the app.

As it's his home system I'm not sure if he's that bothered about finding out whether it's a bug or something, or not!

You could of course, also have a look at the Azureus site and see if they have a bug tracker/listing and check to see if the symptoms you experienced are listed under any bug reports?

ttfn

John