Should Linux users worry about NSA or anyone that sneaks into their personal domain?
 

Hi,

Just curious about how my fellow Linux users feel about this issue with the USA NSA snooping about and walking on our privacy illegally? Probable cause? Who is identifying or setting the line for effect when deciding who or what is to be done by whom? Reminds me of the fox guarding the hen house. :rolleyes:

What about: NSA Has Legitimate Code Running in Linux Kernel and Android; I am certain there are Linux users watching closely anything NSA is providing. But at what level should a government agency be involved with FOSS or even Linux? Who decides that involvement of government employees with Linux or FOSS? And why? Should we as citizens allow this? Concerned? I am very concerned with Government employees to do work outside of their realm to walk on personal privacy or providing the means to do such action(s). I do think that an agency should be used to protect the public but do it legally. Probable cause! 1984 in 2013?

Recent articles concerning Google, NSA & snooping;Linux users should consider using different safe search engines such as DuckDuckGo & Ixquick or Pandia Kids & Teens for concerned parents. DuckDuckGo growth has been good since the news about NSA, Google and privacy concerns.

Paranoia is good when it comes to ones personal information all the time, even when using your electronics/computers. Be aware!

As much as I dislike government intrusion -- and, believe me, I truly do -- at the same time I understand why -- don't like it, but I do understand it.

Back in the old days -- from the 1940's though the demise of the Soviet Union in 1991, the Cold War -- everybody understood the rules of engagement. Countries all had intelligence agencies (everybody: the UK, France, US, Soviet Union, Japan, all the Warsaw Pact countries, all the NATO countries, you name 'em). You had spies, the other guys had spies, everybody had (and still has) spies. You didn't kill each other, you didn't steal airplanes and fly them into buildings with the sole intent of murdering as many people as possible, you didn't set off bombs in crowded markets, you just didn't do that kind kind of crap. You did what you did to keep the other guy at bay so that nobody would start a nuclear war and wipe out the entire planet. It was madness, but it worked -- rational people on all sides carefully avoiding the brink.

I happened to be in West Germany the week The Wall opened on 9 November 1989 and in Berlin at the weekend, watching and listening to East Berliners literally gawking at the wonders of West Berlin and the fact that they could freely walk across the border (and walk back home, too). I never thought that I'd live to see the actual end of World War II, but I did; I never thought I'd live to see the end of the Soviet Union and the break-up of the entire bloc, all those countries that were dominated by the Soviets free to do as they please, but I did. A great sigh of relief heard 'round the world.

Now, all of us, everybody, everywhere are faced with an irrational enemy: an enemy that hates on the basis of religion and an abiding hatred of freedom and is willing to murder randomly. From the first bombing of the World Trade Center though the bombing of the Boston Marathon done only for the sake of murder and mayhem, there is nothing whatsoever rational about the actions of the people carrying out attacks -- in the US, Europe, Asia, everywhere (recall the bombings of trains in Spain, the Underground in London, hotels, restaurants, weddings, markets, embassies -- almost uncountable).

Intelligence agencies around the world are charged with discovering and stopping attacks. That's their job: keep Us safe from Them. It's been the job for thousands of years; from ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, all the way to now, that's the job. It's what CIA, NSA, MI-5 and MI-6, DCRI and DGSE, BND, Mossad, FSB, and on and on and on do (cripes, Christmas Island has an intelligence agency (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...gence_agencies), all charged withe the same job: protect Us from Them.

Faced with an irrational enemy, what do you do? Really, just what do you do? You cannot ignore it and hope it goes away. You have to reluctantly violate some of your basic principles. You have to gather and analyze information looking for the needles in the stack of needles in the stacks of hay to try to find the one that presents the danger. You really have to try to identify the danger before it happens rather than after the bombs go off. It is a conundrum, violating the privacy of the innocent to pinpoint the about-to-be guilty. I hate that all of us are forced by the actions of the dangerous few to give up what we value so highly.

We have, unknowingly, given up a great deal of privacy by using Facebook, Twitter, Google, Yahoo, Bing, Linkedin, whatever social media we crave and use -- CIA looks like rank amateurs compared to what search engines and social media know about you, your preferences, stuff you buy -- we've given up that information so we can be marketed at, and, brothers and sisters, it's used and you gave it away.

It's a little galling but I can't make a case against NSA (and all the others) looking at telephone records for calls to and from "troublesome" countries -- not conversations (since the Stasi went out of business in East Germany, conversations are not recoded by your telephone service provider), just point-to-point, number to number. If that points at known numbers used by terrorists to someone in this (or your) country, well, maybe somebody should look into that (and, perhaps, prevent rather than investigate another Boston Marathon bombing after the fact?). Do I like it, hell no. Do I think that it seems to be necessary, well, reluctantly, yes, I do (and damn me for that). If Them manages to get hold of a nuke, you can be pretty much guaranteed that they'll use it; I'd rather have that prevented before New York, London, Paris, Tel Aviv, Hong Kong, Tokyo or wherever disappears in a mushroom cloud. It's really that bad.

Member Response
 

Hi,

I do understand your points. But as Americans we do have the constitution that should be used as a governing to prevent the abuse by agencies.

NSA, CIA or any government agency should abide by the constitution and not circumvent when it's convenient. As it should be for private citizens too respect and abide by the same constitution. Not to bend or interpret for ones own needs. Obama's recent statements that NSA, FBI or whatever agency does not do anything illegally. Bull! They got caught and now spinning to get out of the microscopic viewing of their inner works. Congressional committees should get tough and do their jobs as elected moral leaders. Either do the job or get out!

We can have security and the constitution!

As to the public media snowball for the need of a Facebook, twitter or whatever, some people have chosen to use such therefore should expect to be burnt at some point in time. Why does every Facebook or twitter user have need(s) to expose such information then cry foul when someone steals their identity or stalks them? "Stupid is as stupid does" fits the Facebook or twitter user whenever posting information to open doors else where. Stupid!

As I tell members of my family who text or communicate via the social media to me: Do not expect me to respond to such! Either call me or speak to me one on one to my face. Communicate!

When out to eat I notice several tables around me of family members that are actively typing on their smartphones and do not even inter-relate with each other one on one. Then wonder why Johny or Susie have issues or just cannot carry on a intelligent conversation. All this public posting, tech speak, AOL or SMS is damaging our society.

You cannot claim to understand something you cannot even see, like secret agencies.

As for SELinux, I have never trusted it, and I don't like the concept of it. It is just a way to lock yourself out of your own system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SELinux
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_access_control

No thanks, I'll keep all my power and do my best with it.

Follow good security practices and I think even the NSA would have a hard time getting into your system. Unfortunately, I don't know of a way to maintain privacy from them, they see everything.

Oh, yeah, I agree in so many, many ways.

I think it's almost criminal that reading and discussing The Federalist is not mandatory in public eduction so that people would have an understanding of why the constitution is what it is -- primarily what government cannot do rather than what it can. And, you know, The Federalist is, at bottom, propaganda (now a dirty word, but not then). Hamilton, Madison and Jay explaining the what's, why's and wherefore's that so many are so so sadly ignorant of.

There has to be a balance -- and that is the job of congress. It's also our job; it is mandatory in a democracy that the people raise hell with government when they see it go awry. Most do not, aren't even aware, just go along and get along mumbling to the guy on the next bar stool at best, oblivious to what has been lost.

I'm afraid that we're approaching ineptocracy (in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) -- a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers (a T-shirt philosophy I've seen around).

You're completely right: congress is supposed to watch but they're too busy with politics to actually do anything worth much.

I have a cell phone, it's in a compartment in the instrument panel of my truck, turned off until I need it. I have a land line and an answering machine -- leave me a message or I'll never, ever call you back (and won't know or much care that you called in the first place). Send me an e-mail, I'll answer (or ignore you if you're and idiot). Tweet? What's that -- I read books and newspapers, call me old-fashioned. You've probably noticed, as have I, the Twitter shorthand popping up in LQ? Arrgghh! Always some damn fool that just has to "text" in the middle of a movie or a one-on-one conversation.

There has to be a balance, I'm just not sure where it is.

Indeed, the core problem is that "the ends do not justify the means," even if it actually turns out that "the means" are technically feasible. (Which I doubt, but "who cares, there's gobs of money in it, regardless.")

"Terrorists" were quickly coined in to the perfect "faceless, irrational enemy." The "Others." Surely lurking behind every lamp-post, but texting their friends and sending them un-encrypted emails to Plan Bad Things. Yessir, we've got to capture every scrap of information, vacuum every stalk of hay to find those needles in those haystacks. No amount of money that we spend on such a noble effort would be a waste, so we are told. Since we think that we can do it, we obviously must, and if you dare to ask questions about that ... well, you must be one of Them, right?

The bottom-line is that it pays to be a skeptic. To question, and I do not mean in some secret kangaroo-court, the things that (in the end...) salesmen are telling us all that we "must" spend Trillions of dollars on. There are very good reasons not to throw-away one's nation's founding principles in the name of "safety." Yes, you must "provide for the common defense," but the military industrialists are really just in this thing for the dough.

The founders of this nation weren't ignorant. They were prescient. Above all, they were students of History. If the USA continues to sally down this primrose pathway, History won't grant it a special exemption.

I'd think everyone has more to worry about. The decline of honey bees is more important to the world than this story.


I would have to doubt that there is any issue with SElinux. The code is open to viewing and inspection. Look at it and see if you can find any issues.


I do believe that the US has a right to look into messages and phone calls that originate from outside the US.

In the end of the day, the US is a place where the citizens don't even have to show an ID to vote. They don't have to be a legal immigrant to get free health care and food. They are protected from prosecution in many cities (so they can be free to be maids and gardeners and cooks to rich). The US is the most free country in the world. Stupid F$%#$% like the Boston brothers make it unsafe for honest hard working Americans. We need to protect them.

The only problem I have is with the NSA guy. Any guy with a stripper girlfriend is suspect to me. He may be doing this for money or drugs.

There are a number of intrusive laws already on the books. Stuff like purchases of more than 2 firearms in a day or transactions that involve more than $10,000 cash. In both cases I was "reported" and I don't care. I like to have a lot of cash on hand and when I buy firearms I buy a bunch at a time. Does it make me a criminal? Let them monitor me. I ain't skerd!

delete

Actually no, it isn't. It currently has rank 48: http://ecoggins.hubpages.com/hub/Fre...m-in-the-World

I personally don't like this NSA thing. Yes, it's good for catching the bad guys out there but it can accidentally red-flagged innocent people just because they used those same keywords they are filtering for in communication. Sometimes people use those keywords in a totally different meaning of content.

I disagree with their opinion.

http://ecoggins.hubpages.com/hub/Fre...m-in-the-World

Freedom may mean one thing to them and another to me.

@ jefro

410. That page doesn't exist.

from the link above

It's alphabetized. :D

Jefro, those are some good points that you've made.
Even though the electorate has voted for that, and legislators have passed that. Courts, who have imagined themselves to be final arbiters of the law, have overridden the will of the electorate. In our system the courts have no law making authority. It is the elected branch of government, the legislature that has authority to make laws. Yet the courts have been allowed to yes-no to laws that the legislature have passed. Isn't that incredible. Foreign nationals can vote in US elections! You don't even have to prove that you are a citizen of a country to vote in it!
Another incredible statement. You commit a felony but sneaking into the US, and you can have free health care, food, education for your kids, and we'll give you amnesty for your crime!
Yes, and for 25 years now, if you are found by a police officer to have large amounts of cash in your possession they can confiscate it, and you'll have to prove where you got it, and how you got it, to get it back. They are called rico statutes. That has happened several times in the news.
I'm not sure that is true at all. We are a police state under surveillance.

We are told what speech we can use as free speech and what speech is not allowed. Political and religious speech are the two types of speech specifically mentioned by name in the first amendment to the US Constitution that the government can't stop. Try to talk about Jesus in your graduation speech. Try to wear a "I like Jesus" T shirt in the public schools. Where is their free speech? And where did government get the authority to quench it?

The second amendment says government can't abridge your right to own and carry arms. Then where did they get the authority to decide if you can carry arms?

The fourth amendment says government can't search you or your property or seize your property without a writ from a court. Your property also can not be used by government without due compensation. Where did they get the authority to stop someone for drug possession and then confiscate the persons car, take the car and sell it at action, and keep the money? Where did they get the authority to read your email without a writ from a court?

The fifth amendment says that government can't hold you without due process. Where did they get the authority to hold terror suspects indefinitely without a charge or without facing their accusers in a court of law?

I could go on...My point is that government has been acting illegally for decades now. And we the people have let it happen. It's kinda like wanting to shut the gate after the cows are out.

Great statement. Right on target.

From the OP
You asked what we think. I think that this latest revelation is just one of a long line of complaints We The People have against an out of control machine. Allow me to say this.

There have been quite a few post's on LQ that are political in nature of late. I've made a few of them. Members form outside the US may be puzzled as to why.

What you are seeing in these posts is a citizenry that is outraged by a government that is refusing to obey the laws of the land. An elite ruling class that imagines them self to be above the rule of law while requiring it's citizens to do obeisance to them. A denunciation of a court system that has overstepped it's constitutional parameters of authority and actually makes law from the bench. A court system that has zero law making authority. US law making is the sole authority of the US congress with the US presidents participation. A disgust of a derelict US congress that refuses to use their impeachment powers to remove those judges who refuse to obey the law. And an outrage against a police state that now imagines that they may search, seize, spy, assault, and kill at will. All without receiving a warrant from a court. I'm not sure just how much the rest of the world knows about the tinderbox that the US is. I don't know how much of this is making the news reports in Europe and Asia. The US in 2013 is in a conferrable place to where the US was in the 1850's. The 1850's in the US were pre civil war years. Civil wars are the bloodiest, most barbarous conflicts that men have. Therefore it is of great import for us to reign in big, illegal, elitist government, and a return to We The People.

Moderator Response
 

Moved: Posts moved to a new thread since the content was Off Topic from OP and is more suitable in <General> and has been moved accordingly to help your thread/question/discussion get the exposure it deserves: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...ms-4175466651/

Moved from: https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...in-4175466479/

I really think everyone suspects the other countries have been doing this and do it openly. You can't tell me that China is using their supercomputers to make better wonton's.

I still say so what if NSA is looking at metadata. There have been a number of criminals that have been caught before the advent of digital data by external investigations. Another Chicago crime figure was only caught on tax evasion, not the real crimes.

I'd doubt the US has read anyone's text data without a warrant. I know for sure many many people's data is being watched by criminals and criminal countries.

I would count a country as a criminal country that secretly spies on its own citizens, records all their communication (no, they are not only recording metadata, they just wait to look at the content until you become suspicious for whatever reason) and then treat the people that uncover these violations of the citizens rights as traitors and criminals.

If a person in the USA is talking to terrorists, then I want to know. I think the government has a right and duty to watch these people. It is not criminal. I think it is clear that these people talking to terrorist aren't trying to sell girl scout cookies.

If the NSA wanted to stop common crime then they'd have way more work ahead. The boarders of the US are more vulnerable than a MS OS from 1995. Everything from faux shoes to drugs to people get in. Some of the people aren't welcome. Pretty sure if you try to kill us we don't like you.

Agreed. But that is not what they are doing. They watch you, they not only store your meta-data, they store the contents of your communication, regardless if you are a suspect or not. Maybe you will participate in a freedom march or protest against something you don't like about your government ten years in the future and then they will look at that content they have stored from you. That puts them in the same class of government like Eastern Germany was and China or North Korea is, which most people would think of as criminal countries.

Member Response
 

Hi,

Personally, I believe that NSA/IAD are in the game of collecting data/information to prevent harm to citizenry of the USA. Our leaders are trying to assure us by stating no one is being looked at without due cause or probable cause and that FISA warrants are legally obtained for such action. Information from private citizens are likely linked to foreign parties thus the collection/storing. What about other data being collected?

What Exactly Is the Secret FISA Court?;
I really appreciate having the "the most secretive court in America" allowing a government agency to watch citizens when necessary but not a 1984 totalitarian or authoritarian state.

We were founded as a free thinking and open community and do not wish to be looked at through a magnifier to control our actions from a political system for one ruling class. Why do you think 'Progressives' are attempting to run all over the Constitution since early twentieth century? They are now the controlling party within USA and will do anything to change things from the norm by ignoring the Constitution. So listening or watching everyone will be an open for the means to control a society.

As a Linux user that is why I posted this query to the forum.

EDIT: Note I did change the meaning to reflect the intent. I would prefer to harden Slackware than worry about someone Else's idea of security.

If SELinux is enabled/used in a Distribution then that is a Linux Distribution that I will not be using. Trust or paranoia, I will not succumb to someone's attempts to control my actions or even the threat of such so why would I use a tool developed by a Government agency wishing to do such. I am not powerless or am I sitting on my hands waiting to see what happens. Harden your system! End EDIT

Don't let NSA paranoia destroy your productivity
Someone already pointed out that the list is alphabetized and not a ranking point. I did read the criteria for Freedom-House and they stated;Sad that there are only 49 'Most Free Countries'. One thing is that all these countries do have the freedom to control their future by citizen participation. Sadly here in the USA we have one of the lowest voter turnouts for both local and national voting as compared to other countries in the free world.


Happy Slacking! :)

SELinux isn't a Linux distribution, it is a feature of the kernel that can be enabled plus some user-space tools. Distros that use it by default are RHEL and Fedora Core. Other major distros support it as well.

There are other options:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Security_Modules

I was pleasantly surprised when I moved from large-population, large-city, large-suburbs (that would be Detroit before the population fell below 800,000) with low voter turnout to large-county, small-population (1,791 sq miles, 11,719 population) where county and township government is both active and well-represented by citizens taking part. Competent folks are elected to public office (they're my neighbors and I know them), do a good job of performing their responsibilities and paying attention to citizen input. 'Round these parts, voter turnout is something over 95% -- the other 5% either unable to get to the pols for health reasons or working out-of-county far enough to not be available on election day (yeah, there are absentee ballots, but you gotta know you're going to be absent and that isn't always possible to know, or some folks just don't want to vote -- which is allowed). This place truly is democracy in action and I do love it. You can walk up to or telephone the chairman of the county commissioners, talk about a problem, get an answer -- try that in New York, eh?

Member Response
 

Hi,

Your right and my statement was not correct. I will change to reflect. I still feel that any government body involvement should be monitored openly by Linux users.

Sorry, although it is quite obvious I somehow missed that.
Nonetheless my point is the same, what is the difference between a country secretly spying on his citizens and a country secretly spying on his citizens with allegedly good intentions? What if the definitions for those good intentions change in the future (for example the USA becoming a theocracy, something that doesn't seem to be that improbable)?
Why are other countries that do exactly the same deemed to be criminal, but the USA not?

Member Response
 

Hi,
I think the difference is in that if the citizenry are aware of the action and if the miss-use is apparent then actions can be taken to rectify. The country that is monitoring secretly and is not monitored to maintain regulatory action then anything goes.

I believe that is personal reflection, the USA will not become a theocracy. Maybe progressive socialistic instead of democratic. Our republic is weakening by the fragmenting of law by progressive minded parties not holding to our Constitution.
Reflective!
We really do not have all the facts to come to a honest assessment for countries in question.

China for example does monitor/track/hack networks/systems here in the USA and in China they meter along with controlling their Internet. I do believe the USA does the same for intrusion, if not then we should to maintain awareness of the level of intrusions here by China or any other country. Cyber warfare is a new age industry that is making major players in the USA mega-bucks from the government. Capitalist at work!

Isn't that what distro's are meant to do?

While I understand most concerns regarding NSA, they're not the only ones involved with SE Linux.
http://www.nsa.gov/research/selinux/contrib.shtml

I guess it's mostly about trust (and I do trust people like Russell Coker).

Member Response
 

Hi,
Not all Linux users directly participate with a particular Distribution development or testing. Some LQ Slackware Members do get involved in some way with Slackware.

I feel that a knowledgeable Slackware user can harden their own installs and/or provide means to other users to do same.

Please don't use that "particular" involvement against me (i'd like to keep those things private as it it will always cause confusion). It never changed my view on Slackware and never will.


I politely disagree here.
Not every "knowledgeable Slackware user" is capable to read code.

It's always about trust.

Everyone can read code, not everyone can understand it. In fact, I'm sure even developers of the code don't understand all of the code, just the part they are working on.

It requires some trust, but the less, the better. I would say it is more important to understand what the program does and what this means from a security point of view, not so much understanding the code.

As for Slackware, well let's just say there are distros for beginners and distros for more advanced users. Beginners don't understand too much about their system and even worse many don't want to either.

My system has a firewall, is updated regularly for security patches (including kernel), has no external open ports or unneeded services running, has strong passwords that are changed with every install, is scanned for rootkits and more rarely for viruses (nothing ever found), and I try to keep my system as free from proprietary apps as possible. I'm using flash now, but it's because I'm bored. I'll get rid of it pretty soon, because they're not gonna update versions and games are already requiring new versions and not many games come out anyway.

Member Response
 

Hi,
I did not direct to you personally, open comment.

How would what we are discussing change your view or opinion about Slackware?

I am sure there are exceptions. A knowledgeable Slackware user does not mean that user is proficient in code. While I would lean that most do some form of coding or edit of code in some form. You can harden the system by using guides (trusted);Trust is earned by moral ethical actions of integrity or confidence in another that prove to be true and not openly transferred or discernible when something is unknown.

Trust is a learned condition from experience with another! That is how I feel one will earn my trust by having a positive, respectful experience with others. That does not mean that if someone opposes my point of view that trust will be lacking. I can have a good/bad experience with someone who is polar opposite and still trust that same person after they have shown trust is deserved.

BTW, to be clear, I am not calling anyone stupid. John Wayne's quote does apply when that person is stupid;:hattip:

I have to say that LQ people are pretty stable. On many other forums these type of hot button topics would end in people being banned.

So to answer the OP. Yes, linux can be and is being attacked from all sides. My opinion is that NSA would be far down on your list of issues. Automated crooks have thousands of computers running day and night trying to hack into accounts, phish for data and data mine. They search unprotected or poorly protected unix, linux and windows systems each second. These crooks and bad guys (your choice) also may have very special exploits never before published.

How long ago did the server for kernel get hacked?