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Old 02-27-2013, 04:34 PM   #46
Randicus Draco Albus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
Since when can it not compete? Most people either don't know about Linux ...
Which is why game makers do not make games for Linux. It would be a money loosing venture.

Quote:
You seem to think that emulation is a stupid idea and that people shouldn't bother, but that is your problem, not mine.
I do not think Wine is a stupid idea. I do, however, consider it a waste of developing resources that could be put to better use. Yes. My opinion, because I do not consider games an important criterion for choosing either a computer or an OS. I do not care if people want to use Wine to play games. If it makes them happy, more power to them, but claiming the absence of Wine is an impediment to Linux is a different story.


Quote:
If you had payed any attention to what I was saying, you would have seen for the THIRD time that I haven't made the complete switch because of driver and hardware support.
You did not mention that, until your forth post. After the gaming excuse was criticised. Before that, other than asking about the quality of distros, it was the only thing you mentioned.
Quote:
As the title says, I am looking at making a full ditch. Since the open release of Steam, and with Wine becoming increasingly better, I don't have excuses to stay with Windows.
No mention of hardware support, until page two. And not much of an excuse. How many people are using Linux with the same hardware you use?


Quote:
So your saying that when Linux starts getting a huge chunk of the desktop that game makers will continue to ignore it? You really haven't thought this out.
When?
There is a big difference between when, if and maybe. You are stating a belief as fact. If I have not thought it out, you have not thought about it at all.
 
Old 02-27-2013, 05:07 PM   #47
bloody
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Oh boy.

First of all, i also engaged in an off-topic discussion, therefor i'm a Troll now. Alright, i'll get myself used to being one. Nothing like the present.. :P

Back to non-topic..

Alright, some of these games in the list i've posted might still be available only on Windows but not Linux. You got a point there, i didn't check the availability for every single one of those.

But then, the argument "there is a certain push towards Linux" certainly holds some truth. In a recent enquiry by MS to the Minecraft creator Markus Persson about working together on a Windows8 certification for his game, Persson replied:

"I'd rather have minecraft not run on win 8 at all than to play along. Maybe we can convince a few people not to switch to win 8 that way.."

Valve has issued similar statements. Many are worried about Windows8 and when it comes to Windows Blue, some ppl have already stated that they've had it with MS and their never-ending greed, not to mention their systems getting worse and worse.

And with Wine alone, alot of games already work fine on Linux. Just recently, i've played a shooter under Wine and had an average of 83 frames on Linux compared to 78 frames on Windows, even with the "old" Nvidia driver. That's at least something, i.e., the game doesn't run slower on Linux, but even the opposite.

There's also a noticeable trend away from the PC platform to game consoles as well as to mobile stuff. Which means that the PC market is goint to shrink even more, making it less attractive for game developers in general. That does not mean the market is dead and we can now just go and shoot ourselves, but it also means the game developers will have to get used to the idea that blindly focusing on just one single platform (Windows/DirectX/MS-something-you-name-it) is not such a good idea, so future titles will IMHO more often be designed with portability issues in mind. Finally, some devs will come to wake up and realize that Windows isn't all there is in the universe.

Anyhow, i'm looking forward to all this. Considering the whole situation (even beyond operating systems or hardware platforms), big corporations are increasingly often looked at with a certain skepticism, which can only be good in the long run.
 
Old 02-27-2013, 05:29 PM   #48
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
Ok, just because most games right now aren't natively supported in Linux doesn't mean that its a stupid idea to use Wine.
Except I didn't say it was a stupid idea to use wine... and once again it's not "support" a game has to be designed and built from the ground up to run natively or ported (requires access to source code - without the full consent of the developer, publisher and any other copyright holders - not happening... without a good business case - not happening...). There are many very old proprietary games that despite a lot of support from fans to release source code it simply hasn't happened. ID Software are one of the few exceptions among proprietary games developers who release their source code. For the vast majority of games, it's either wine, FLOSS games or reverse engineered game engines which usually, though not always, require the original game content to function (openttd, scummvm, etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
I am guessing you have never heard of Windows Blue?
It's rumour and I couldn't care less about it - I don't soak up everything I read in the tech press. MS, the games publishers and the developers have heaped tons of unfair and unreasonable restrictions, including many forms of invasive DRM, on windows gamers over the years, supposedly in the a name of fighting piracy, when it's really all about maximising unit sales by deterring casual copying / multiple installations, and gamers for the most part have bent over and greased up for it... That much won't change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
If you haven't then take the 10 minutes to look it up.
This line of argument is getting old and tired especially as you've clearly taken no time at all to research your own arguments, but have simply turned up here and posted a lot of FUD and then thrown your toys out of the pram when challenged over it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
As stated before Win 7 will be my last MS OS.
MS are not worried about losing a tiny percentage of users to alternative OS... They have the OEM desktop market tied up tightly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
Can you imagine what will happen when MS rolls out Blue and people start crying about having to pay for yearly upgrades?
Links? Facts or just more speculation and rumour mongering?

Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
Perhaps you are getting offended because you don't want the "Windows" people migrating to Linux.
I can assure that I am not the one getting offended in this thread... I was still a windows user myself a few years ago, so your last statement makes no sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
I already stated that the reason I haven't totally switched yet was because of hardware and driver support, but it has made huge strides in the past couple years.
Then you will be waiting forever to switch - GNU/Linux hardware support always trails behind MS, there is a lot more support than their used to be, but it is still playing catch up - that's the nature of the beast, it's a case of dealing with it or using windows. Just do what many do - keep a dual boot with an old version of windows just for running games. (or just ditch windows and the games as I did years ago...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
I consider it trolling.
I consider it to be opinion, just like I consider what you have posted as opinion and nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
and frankly I don't know a lot from Linux due to limited usage.
I see... yet you are fine when it comes to lecturing others using only rumour, conjecture and hearsay as your sources?
 
Old 02-27-2013, 05:30 PM   #49
antitankknife
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@Randicus

Right now, it may be a money looser for a lot of companies, but sooner or later Linux will take over on desktop. People are fed up with crap from MS and Apple. Sooner or later, they will switch, because they don't want to continue being raped by these companies that nickel and dime people to death. As for Wine, a lot of people like myself want to be able to run Windows only programs in Linux. As for the hardware I can remember a number of times in the past that I had to use VESA drivers for distros, and they were terrible. I want to get an AMD card and currently in PC-BSD, they only use VESA. The majority of cards I have used have been AMD/ATI, so this is where I am coming from. I also have issues using macros and other minor things with Linux. People in 3rd world countries and others that just don't want/can't afford to get a new computer can run Linux just fine, whereas Windows Vista and onwards lags on older computers. Again, with the push to Linux, whether or not you want to admit it, it will happen.

@bloody

I don't care about off-topic, I get pissed at statements like "don't bother." I have had similar results as you for the few games I have been able to test recently. It seems like Linux has much better optimization than Windows. Times are rapidly changing, and in 10-20 years it is possible that System-on-Chip computers(i.e. Raspberry Pi) could run games like Far Cry 3, so game developers just have to adapt.
 
Old 02-27-2013, 05:32 PM   #50
Randicus Draco Albus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloody View Post
There's also a noticeable trend away from the PC platform to game consoles as well as to mobile stuff.
Like tablet computers that use the same software as other computers? Or mobile telephones, which are not the best choice for playing games?

Quote:
Which means that the PC market is goint to shrink even more, making it less attractive for game developers in general. That does not mean the market is dead and we can now just go and shoot ourselves, but it also means the game developers will have to get used to the idea that blindly focusing on just one single platform (Windows/DirectX/MS-something-you-name-it) is not such a good idea, so future titles will IMHO more often be designed with portability issues in mind. Finally, some devs will come to wake up and realize that Windows isn't all there is in the universe.
That is one hypothetical scenario.

Another hypothetical scenario is game makers focusing on game machines, which would lower the price of that hardware and draw gamers away form computers.

Yet another hypothetical scenario is things continuing as they are. With Wine allowing games to be played on Linux, game makers will see no need to for portability, since we have already done it for them.

The hypothetical possibilities are endless.
 
Old 02-27-2013, 05:33 PM   #51
bloody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
So I can load just about any Distro onto a USB(say a 32GB for extra space), and take it with me anywhere, have all my apps, email, browsing, etc and have Wine with a few game like Terraria, and just plug into a computer and it plays? As far as encryption, what I mean is when I installed PC-BSD, it gave me the option of entering a password when installing, and I didn't enter one, but my understanding is you have to enter it before the OS will boot so you can enter the pass for your account. If I boot it off another computer, should I avoid doing anything sensitive like buying on eBay?
1) yes, exactly. It doesn't matter if the other computer has some kind of Windows or anything else installed, i just plug-in my USB stick and boot into my own world (system + apps + data), completely ignoring anything else on that machine (which doesn't even need to have any harddisk/block device installed at all). This also means that i won't have to use the other person's OS/Desktop/UserAccount, no need to touch that at all, i.e., the other guy's system won't be changed in any way. Same the other way around: the local system of the other person won't compromise mine either, no matter how many Windows viruses, spywares and whatnot are lurking around there.

The only thing to consider is, if i'm used to have a hardware router/firewall at my home/office, the other guy might not and instead have connected his/her pc directly to the internet, meaning that my USB system will be directly receiving any kind of attack, so i have to be careful not to run public servers on my USB system without installing means of protection, like a local firewall or some such. But as long as ssh is the only server i'm running on my stick by default, i got no worries there either. Shall the bombardment begin.. good luck, hacker boyz..

2) Well, this "password" thing probably refers to the idea to encrypt one or more of your partitions, usually with the /home partition in mind. That's a good idea if you have sensitive data stored on the stick, let alone for the case the stick gets lost/stolen on your way home, for example. Otherwise, since you are booting from the USB stick and the Linux system there takes full control over the machine, there's nothing to worry about your data, it will be as safe as usual because any other locally installed system is still shutdown & inactive.
 
Old 02-27-2013, 05:41 PM   #52
antitankknife
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@Caravel

Only the stupid people bend over to take it. Remember all the backlash over AC 2 and Splinter Cell Conviction? People would not buy it on desktop because it had some of the worst DRM that one could think of. Companies can do this, but sooner or later, it will catch up them them like in this case and bite them in the ass. Here is just one of many links:

http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/24/40...h-improvements

While it is possible that they may not go through with Blue, it appears that they will. There is also no denying that Windows 8 was such a huge turd that it could clog any toilet in the world. A lot of people do not want to switch from Windows 7, and when 8 and likely Blue are just turds, then they will look to other options. As for the drivers and such, you can deny all you want, but Steam will cause a big push to Linux. Period. Linux has the potential and the code, it just needs more TLC from places like AMD/ATI. And if you had read one of my previous posts you would have seen that I said I would be dual booting for a while, until I could get everything I wanted to function properly in BSD. As for the lectures, let me know what you want sources on and I will get it for you and we will put this sh*t to rest.

@bloody

Thanks for the feedback. That is a good idea and with just $25 for a rugged thumb drive, I can take an OS with me anywhere.

Last edited by antitankknife; 02-27-2013 at 05:44 PM.
 
Old 02-27-2013, 07:00 PM   #53
bloody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
Thanks for the feedback. That is a good idea and with just $25 for a rugged thumb drive, I can take an OS with me anywhere.
There are a few things to consider, tough. The system on my USB stick is 32-bit, so it can run on older machines also, and thankfully, Xorg configuration is pretty much automated these days, so i only needed to pull a few more graphics drivers instead of just one. In my case, i replaced one line in my Gentoo:/etc/make.conf, like:

from:
VIDEO_CARDS="nvidia"
to:
VIDEO_CARDS="nouveau radeon intel trident via vesa fbdev"

So the desktop has a decent choice of drivers, including vesa if the hardware is... more exotic or not considered on my part. I also switched from "nvidia" to "nouveau" because my USB system is currently not used for high-end gaming.

I was amazed how easy the entire installation turned out to be, considering the zillions of lengthy guides in the net about how to setup a "live" system using e.g. *buntu, even with entire toolkits made just for that purpose. But what i got now is not a "live" system but a full-fledged, regular installation which can be upgraded like any other.

Linux is fun..
 
Old 02-28-2013, 07:19 AM   #54
cynwulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
Which as with the "many links" is speculation and hearsay. (And sourced from an article which appears to be in Mandarin.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
As for the drivers and such, you can deny all you want, but Steam will cause a big push to Linux.
I'm not denying anything. I stated that which is an accepted fact - GNU/Linux drivers are well "behind" their windows counterparts. Nvidia and AMD make their billions from windows desktops, their high end flagship GPUs are built around MS Direct3D and windows gaming. GNU/Linux is merely an afterthought - if it's even considered at all (that's why we have reverse engineered drivers which are developed with 0 cooperation from the vendors).

Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
Period. Linux has the potential and the code, it just needs more TLC from places like AMD/ATI.
Please explain in detail where Linux has the potential and "the code"? What do ATI/AMD need to do? Invest billions in developing drivers which are on a par with windows drivers but just for OpenGL/mesa? For a platform which only has a handful of proprietary games available and something like 1% or less of the desktop market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
And if you had read one of my previous posts you would have seen that I said I would be dual booting for a while, until I could get everything I wanted to function properly in BSD.
I can assure you that you will be dual booting for a very long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antitankknife View Post
As for the lectures, let me know what you want sources on and I will get it for you and we will put this sh*t to rest.
This would only be the case if your claims were actual based on anything tangible. So far you've effectively said that there is/is going to be a big "push to Linux" at some time or other/now/soon, because you said so and those who don't agree are stupid/trolling and should not waste your time and theirs posting in your thread... this "push to Linux" is according to you, driven by Steam (pun alert), a content delivery system, principally designed for selling windows games online, which is now available for GNU/Linux with a handful of obscure titles - and also by this supposed decline of windows on the desktop/gaming rig - heralded by "windows blue" which is at this stage an unknown quantity. None of this is current, it's all based on your projections which are in turn based on tech press gossip and seemingly your own gut feeling and opinions...

It's really up to you to provide sources, it's not for someone else to trawl through your posts analyzing and verifying every detail... provide reliable sources for your claims and then the discussion can be meaningful, until then it's completely pointless...

At this stage I am bowing out of your thread as I really should know better than to get involved in pissing contests like this.

Last edited by cynwulf; 02-28-2013 at 07:25 AM.
 
Old 02-28-2013, 08:20 AM   #55
bloody
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Originally Posted by caravel View Post
I stated that which is an accepted fact - GNU/Linux drivers are well "behind" their windows counterparts. Nvidia and AMD make their billions from windows desktops, their high end flagship GPUs are built around MS Direct3D and windows gaming. GNU/Linux is merely an afterthought - if it's even considered at all (that's why we have reverse engineered drivers which are developed with 0 cooperation from the vendors).
Nvidia's lates driver for Linux is about twice as fast as before, also with contributions from Valve and others. That's a blow to Windows as even with the old driver, Windows games running on Wine were already slightly faster. Maybe the new improvements are implemented for Windows some day also. But for now, Linux got the pole position there.

Nvidia is even shipping drivers for FreeBSD. Ask them why they include smaller markets. Maybe wise foresight, maybe a tribute to their customers. Sometimes even big companies do something right..
 
Old 03-03-2013, 09:14 PM   #56
Shadow_7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel View Post
There is no "push" to move to "Linux". Who/what is pushing who/what?
Actually there is a push of sorts. Licensing fees and a bad economy have companies migrating to linux to save money. And in the process they are finding that the "issues" are far fewer in the process. The old days of trendy name dropping isn't as much of a driving force. And with more entities using linux, linux is no longer this dark void of a mystery for those with too much time on their hands.

As far as gaming, java runs pretty happilly in linux and a lot of games are java based. While not the ideal platform a lot of the time. Some pretty big names have significant game offerings on the java side of things. Many of which are run by the web browser java plugin. OpenGL is even supported in java these days. And usable by the browser plugin. While not the ideal game platform, it is sufficient for most casuals. Or at least kids with hand me down computers and not the most recent of tech.
 
  


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