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Old 12-31-2007, 09:34 PM   #31
David1357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jay73 View Post
The simple fact that Linux can use AHCI while XP can't demonstrates all too well that it isn't a hardware issue.
It is an hardware issue. You have to set a bit in the chipset to get it to operate in AHCI mode. You can set that bit via some BIOSen. Linux can set the bit also by writing to PCI configuration space. In both cases, a bit in the hardware allows access to the AHCI functionality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay73 View Post
As for IDe versus AHCI mode, I have found that from a practical point of view, there isn't any difference in performance.
Maybe you are doing something wrong. On two different machines with ICH7R chipsets, I saw performance gains of a factor of 2x between AHCI and IDE mode during situations where the disk was being written to continuously for many minutes.
 
Old 12-31-2007, 11:40 PM   #32
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Quote:
It is an hardware issue. You have to set a bit in the chipset to get it to operate in AHCI mode
Aren't bits and drivers software then? As I said, I did get XP to run nicely with AHCI - only I had to hack the Intel chipset driver.

Quote:
Maybe you are doing something wrong
Possibly but I would doubt it. I have used hdparm to get an idea and the results of AHCI (about 80Mb/s) are what other people are reporting. And the results in IDE more are more or less the same. Maybe there is this huge difference between ICH7 and ICH8? Maybe it's one type/brand of hard drive versus another?

Last edited by jay73; 12-31-2007 at 11:41 PM.
 
Old 01-01-2008, 07:17 AM   #33
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Interesting reading

Hi,
I'm fascinated by the last few comments and I understand the theory from the programming I've been doing but I'm worried that i'ts beyond my experience. If I was to attempt such a thing I'd have to know I had a get out. I don't know how to access my PC at this level in the bios and its sounding like it might not work 100%.

I'm not convinced about Vista but the world will eventually have to follow microsoft's lead. With luck and time, we might find that they get it sorted. so I'm going with Vista and Linux.

I'll Install Vista and see how I go, hopefully it'll magically install to the free space I want it to.

Just one question, If (in theory)I were to attempt to change the chipset mode from AHCI to NATIVE how is this done? I'm only asking to improve my knowledge and to better understand computer architecture. I'm not going to attempt it, so there's no need to elaborate on this if its too complicated to explain.

To syg00,
I'll get back to you hopefully with good news.

Thankyou all kindly
Paul
 
Old 01-01-2008, 08:32 AM   #34
rbees
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My

When I had to reinstall vista on my laptop I had an existing linux partition and the install took the whole hard drive anyway. I used the restore disk that came with the laptop so if you are using an actual vista cd you should be able to install to a specific partition/free space. I never got that option, so I had to run the vista partition shrinking thingy again and reinstall linux (Debian Lenny).
 
Old 01-01-2008, 10:52 AM   #35
David1357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulnwt View Post
Just one question, If (in theory)I were to attempt to change the chipset mode from AHCI to NATIVE how is this done?
It varies from one BIOS to another. Even getting into BIOS varies from one BIOS to another.
 
Old 01-01-2008, 02:05 PM   #36
paulnwt
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Vista is installed now

Hi,
As usual I had trouble. I inserted the installation disk and my key and it then asked where I wanted to install Vista. I chose the 400GB partition I had set aside and formatted as NTFS using the GParted live cd. Windows reported that it could not recognize the partition and could not install into this space. I deleted the partition using the vista custom set-up and still it would not format and install. I rebooted the GParted live cd and re-labeled the entire hard drive free space as MS-DOS.
Inserting and booting from the Vista installation disk has now resulted in my having a running Windows OS.

I've reinstalled all the OEM drivers That I downloaded from HP services earlier.
My system is as it was when I bought it.

Now I presume I have to create a new partition using GParted. I'm now doing this. when I've done I'll check whats still working.
Then I presume I'll have to try to install Linux again.

To syg00,
What should I do now if my partition is successful and my vista still operates?
When I insert my Linux installation disk will it ask me where to install to or is it likely to want to format all my hard drive again? (Which is where it all went wrong first time except that this time I'm ready and I understand it all a little more now, thanks to everybody's help.)

To David1357,
I found the chipset mode in the bios routine quite easily and had a choice of IDE, RAID and AHCI.
This is fairly academic now as I've had to abandon my plans to install XP on my new PC. But I've learned a great deal in trying to do it. I've purchased a couple of books about Linux and with some time to read through it I hope to take my first steps to discovering more about this OS.

Regards
Paul
 
Old 01-01-2008, 03:05 PM   #37
David1357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jay73 View Post
Aren't bits and drivers software then?
No. If you do not know the difference between a bit in hardware and a bit in software, please do not flaunt your ignorance in these forums.
 
Old 01-01-2008, 03:09 PM   #38
David1357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulnwt View Post
To David1357,
I found the chipset mode in the bios routine quite easily and had a choice of IDE, RAID and AHCI.
If you ever decide to try XP again, IDE is what you want. RAID and AHCI are not really different, but the VENDORID:DEVICEID pair shows up differently depending on which one is selected, so Windows thinks they are different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulnwt View Post
This is fairly academic now as I've had to abandon my plans to install XP on my new PC. But I've learned a great deal in trying to do it. I've purchased a couple of books about Linux and with some time to read through it I hope to take my first steps to discovering more about this OS.
Failure is a great tool for learning. Do not be afraid to fail. If you try, you will frequently fail. It is when you are afraid to try that you need to begin worrying.
 
Old 01-01-2008, 03:56 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulnwt View Post
What should I do now if my partition is successful and my vista still operates?
When I insert my Linux installation disk will it ask me where to install to or is it likely to want to format all my hard drive again?
First, use the Vista disk manager to resize the Vista partition - it's very good compared to M$ofts previous efforts.
With Fedora you should be able to just install and tell it to use the free (read unallocated) space. I think it demands a primary partition for the root, but if you did a standard Vista install that won't be an issue.
 
Old 01-01-2008, 04:29 PM   #40
paulnwt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David1357 View Post
Failure is a great tool for learning. Do not be afraid to fail. If you try, you will frequently fail. It is when you are afraid to try that you need to begin worrying.
Thanks for the encouragement and advice.

I've got the GParted Live cd creating the partition for me at the moment, it takes quite some time.
I'm confident that if anything goes wrong now that I'll be able to find a solution, just hoping I don't have any problems.
If I do I'll use the Vista disk manager

I'll let you know how I get on.
Thanks
Paul
 
Old 01-01-2008, 05:08 PM   #41
jay73
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Quote:
No. If you do not know the difference between a bit in hardware and a bit in software, please do not flaunt your ignorance in these forums
Sorry, I won't be infringing on your monopoly again.

You can switch back and forth from IDE to AHCI until hell freezes over, if there isn't any AHCI driver for your operating system (as there often isn't for XP), you can be sure that you're doomed. In other words, if XP does not run nicely with AHCI, it is a software issue, not a hardware issue. Nothing prevents an XP user to switch to AHCI - it only means that the hard drive will be unusable. Give it the proper driver and it works. QED.

And as for bits, how do you think that hardware bits are set in modern systems that have largely stopped using jumpers??

Last edited by jay73; 01-01-2008 at 07:57 PM.
 
Old 01-01-2008, 09:20 PM   #42
paulnwt
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Boot priority

Hi,
Vista didn't like me partitioning the hard drive using GParted. It complained and asked for the installation disk and to click repair. It eventually sorted it and I now have a correctly partitioned drive.
Q1.)
Where is the disk manager for partitioning the hard drive located in vista?
Q2.)
Before I try linux again I was wondering about how I control the boot routine? I've heard words like grub and root and booting linux from a disk. Am I given a choice during installation of Linux and during power up via a menu selection?
Q3.)
Do I need to put a label on the unallocated space ie. MS-DOS, for Linux to identify a usable partition?

Regards
Paul
 
Old 01-01-2008, 10:24 PM   #43
jay73
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A1) Sorry, not a Vista user. XP would have that somewhere under Accessories > Disk management or something.
A2)Yes, you will be given a number of options. Every distro that uses GRUB will offer at least the options of installing to:
- the MBR, in which case it will overwrite the windows MBR - this is fine and the best option for most people
- a linux partition - this is no good unless you already have another boot manager that is capable of booting Linux, in which case it can actually come in really handy
Some distros offer even more options: install to floppy or to the MBR of a different drive.
After you boot up, you will get the GRUB menu so you can select windows or linux or any other OS you have installed. Something like Ubuntu even has an entry for memtest (memory checking).
A3)No. Just bear in mind that some (most) distros by default give read-only access to ntfs partitions. For reliable writing, you should use ntfs-3g and make a few slight edits to your /etc/fstab file.
 
Old 01-02-2008, 10:24 AM   #44
David1357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jay73 View Post
You can switch back and forth from IDE to AHCI until hell freezes over, if there isn't any AHCI driver for your operating system (as there often isn't for XP), you can be sure that you're doomed.
I have two ICH7 systems here with BIOSen that allow switching between IDE and AHCI via BIOS. In IDE mode, XP installs fine and runs fine. In AHCI mode, you need the black floppy from Intel and you have to press F6 during the install to load the drivers for AHCI, but XP installs fine and runs fine.

The difference between IDE (ICH7) and AHCI (ICH7R) is a bit in the hardware (Read the Intel spec for the ICH7/ICH7R, it is available on the web). BIOS can set or clear that bit.

If you do not know what you are talking about, please do not post. The people looking for answers here are having enough problems without having to sort through misinformation.
 
Old 01-02-2008, 10:28 AM   #45
David1357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulnwt View Post
Q2.)
Before I try linux again I was wondering about how I control the boot routine? I've heard words like grub and root and booting linux from a disk. Am I given a choice during installation of Linux and during power up via a menu selection?
I helped a guy in #linux yesterday to setup a dual boot using NTLDR. You just need to install GRUB (or LILO) to the Linux partition and make a copy using dd. Take the file you created and put it in the root directory of your Vista install. You can use BCDEDIT to modify the Vista equivalent of boot.ini to create an entry for Linux. You will need a line that looks like

C:\grub.mbr="Linux"

where "grub.mbr" is the copy of grub you created using "dd if=/dev/sdX of=grub.mbr bs=512 count=1". You should replace sdX with your actual Linux partition (e.g. hda3 or sda5).
 
  


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