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Old 01-20-2004, 04:58 PM   #16
pfe
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No, naturally there will be many individuals programming...
I was just trying to illustrate a problem in a theatrical manner.

The reason why I thinking loud in this forum is that the best argument I can use to persuade my employer to use open source is money. I mean If I get the wierd idea that the whole place is going to switch from the de facto standard, MS Office, I just have to present some REALLY overpowering reason to turn the boat. I can guarantee that nothing is so effective as the possibillity to lower your costs. I look at the internet and find free programs. What could you wish for more? We implement a solution which incorporate Linux and brings my costs down to below $40 per newly added workstation (well to be honest and incorporating the terminal server power, $200, but still, really cheap). Now my appetite is whetted and I'd like to spread my new religion to the other still heathen departments. How depressing when I stumble into the realisation that to keep my religion healthy and spreading I can't avoid telling them that my religion comes at a price...they really should contribute w. some programming time. Hmmm,, now my cheap workstations is costing not $200 but $200+some undefined cost for a programmer. Programmers are not really human are they? Thrustworthy they are not at any rate, they'll just tell you they have to program some more and you can't defend yourself..
My employer is not going to see the openness of the source as equally important as the short term benefit of lower costs. I'm having a marketing problem. And you my reader is suffering for it...sorry about that...
Anyways, they're very interesting these problems.
By the way have anybody seen a project that is not programming, running along the similar lines as open source. No..?
 
Old 01-20-2004, 05:36 PM   #17
jtshaw
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I personally don't use MS products at all, but if they released something that I decided would benefit me to use and there was nothing like it in the free software world I wouldn't be against using it. I basically use my computers for the following tasks:

1) Mail Server (qmail)
2) Web Browsing (mozilla)
3) Email Viewing (mozilla)
4) Programming (vi, qt designer, gcc)
5) HTTP Server (Apache)

There is nothing that Microsoft makes that would help me complete these tasks anymore efficiently or any faster then the tools I already have. So my thought on the matter is why pay for a piece of software when I can get my work done using something that is free?

I don't think ill of anyone running wine, but I personally don't use it. I don't like to pirate software and I think there have been very few products created out there that are worth the amount they charge for them. I do, however, donate my time and money to open source projects that I use frequently.

I also love the GPL and think the arguments against it are ridiculous. If I choose to not let somebody extend my code without distributing the source that is my right cause it is my code. If you choose to use my code you should be forced to honor my request. It isn't like anyone who writes GPL'd software is forcing anyone else to use it as a starting point for there own project and it isn't like GPL'd software can't co-exist on the same machine as non-GPL'd software. Proprietary source companies just don't like it because they can't simply purchase it from the writer and pretend like it was theres all along when it makes its way into a product they sell.
 
Old 01-20-2004, 07:05 PM   #18
rmartine
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If my PCMCIA Serial port adapter worked in Linux I'd be happy as a damn clam.

Since it doesn't, I have to use it in Windows. Oh well.
 
Old 01-20-2004, 08:33 PM   #19
r_jensen11
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Quote:
Originally posted by trickykid

Well, the "hardcore" to me wouldn't watch a .wvm file but instead convert it to another and yet better format.
The day you can figure out how to improve the quality of a video clip by compressing it from one format to another, you'll be worth billions.


Quote:
Do you use any microsoft products at all?

1.) Do you consider someone that uses Wine to run microsoft programs a hard core linux user?

2.) What do the hard core Linux users do when they want to view something like a .wvm file?
1.) I'm experimenting with Wine, trying to get Civilization 2 to run well under it. I simply love that game.

2.) I never need to view .wvm files. The only videos I download are mpeg's, preferably mpg2. Occasionally I might get an avi music video, but they're so rare because they're a pain to work with for video cd's.

I see no problem with running both Windows and Linux separately. THe main problem I have is with the zelots who are "MICROSOFT MUST DIE!", "Linux is a joke!", and they're like. Each OS is around because it has its on purposes. Windows is fine for what I use it for: Playing occasional games, chatting online, doing homework, etc. Linux is fine for what I do with it: doing homework, chatting online, trying to tweak settings, etc. Mac's work fine for what I like about them: their support for things like Photoshop and 3d Studio Max(Although I have yet to experience 3dsm on a mac, I'm sure it'd be an absolute dream on a dual G5 )

Overall, for all of you who are "Microsoft=Evil", please due the world a favor and shut up. Aparently it's doing something right, since it's so powerful now. Sure, there are some things that are bad about it, but there are also things about anything else, including Linux. Learn to accept things for what they're good for. Here's a situation that you might be able to understand:

Quote:
Chevy man walks down the street and sees Dodge man. "My Corvette outhandles your Viper," shouts Chevy man. "Yeah? Well my Viper out-accelorates your Corvette!" responds Dodge man. "So what?" replies Chevy man. "My car makes up for it on the turns!" "And mine makes up for it after it exits the turn!" claims Dodge man. The two decide to race off, but during their course, they crash into each other. Then Ford man drives by in his Shelby Cobra, abiding the speed limit. Ford man backs up and unrolls his window. "Oh yeah? Well my car gets me from point A to point B." and he casually drives away.
Very bad, yes, I know. Just goes to show, I've got to go off and study for finals.

Last edited by r_jensen11; 01-20-2004 at 08:34 PM.
 
Old 01-20-2004, 08:46 PM   #20
frieza
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i never had windows on my own computer (well, i did have win95 on a computer for a while, but that was before i heard of linux, and i regretably don't have that computer anymore.. it would have made a nice linux machine... a 486 i think...) i started out my computer interests with a mac running MacOS 7.1

Last edited by frieza; 01-20-2004 at 08:48 PM.
 
Old 01-20-2004, 10:04 PM   #21
fotoguy
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Do you use any microsoft products at all?

A. Yes mostly for games and music, i like to make my own songs but unfortunately cannot run under winex so i must use windoze.


Do you consider someone that uses Wine to run microsoft programs a hard core linux user?

A. Trickykid already answered this one for me

What do the hard core Linux users do when they want to view something like a .wvm file?

A. Really need your definition of what a hardcore linux user is before i can answer this one.

I have two computers. A older 333MHZ with linux and a 1.7G computer with duel boot winXP/Linux
I would like to go 100% linux on both machines someday, but I'm not sure what the wife and kid would do not being able to play there games on winXP.

I find myself always using the old computer and linux just so I don't have to keep rebooting the new computer back into windows for the wife.

A. Can give you a few answers for this one, you can get rid of the wife and kids and then you can have 100% linux running on your computers, this i wouldn't advise becomes really expensive. Or buy a third computer with all the fast gear for yourself and then you don't have to worry about rebooting for the wife all the time.
 
Old 01-21-2004, 12:38 AM   #22
Teralon 9
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Ok! It kind of pisses-me-off when I see people say that one system is better than another. I have used Windows and Macintosh for years and they have their own pros and cons and after using Linux for a while, I can see that the same is true for it. I wouldn't dream of doing graphic manipulation on any other system than a Mac with Photoshop. I also wouldn't do web design on any other system but Windows. And finaly, I wouldn't serve on any other system but Linux. I use all 3 and not 1 is better than any other.
 
Old 01-21-2004, 12:50 PM   #23
cexshun
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Code:
 I also wouldn't do web design on any other system but Windows.
This stumps me. Why is this? It's just as easy to get valid html 4.01 and css 2.0 code in vim as it is in notepad or interdev.

I hope your not talking about frontpage, because I have NEVER seen frontpage pump out anything that remotely resembles the indiustry standards for web design. Not because it's MS, but because it just sucks!
 
Old 01-21-2004, 01:26 PM   #24
jtshaw
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Ya, forgive me, but saying that Windows is the only platform any good for writing HTML on is completely rediculous. Anyone who writes good HTML code makes sure to run it through a validator to ensure it is in fact compatible with any standards following browser. As long as you do that using any system with a standards compatible browser and a text editor is just fine. So any Mac, Windows PC, or Linux box would work perfectly well.

If you are already using a Mac for photo editing and a linux box for serving it seams like it is hardly worth having a Windows box just to code in a simple markup language. Not to say it might not be worth having around for other things you might do.

Last edited by jtshaw; 01-21-2004 at 01:27 PM.
 
Old 01-21-2004, 10:00 PM   #25
r_jensen11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teralon 9
Ok! It kind of pisses-me-off when I see people say that one system is better than another. I have used Windows and Macintosh for years and they have their own pros and cons and after using Linux for a while, I can see that the same is true for it.
Finally, somebody agrees with me!
 
Old 01-22-2004, 12:36 AM   #26
JaseP
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My work Laptop is a Win2K machine, but it's not mine...

Both my home machines are now 100% Linux. I have a P4 2.4GHz desktop with a GeForce4 MX video and SoundBlaster 5.1! sound card and 512MB RAM. It runs SuSE 8.2 Professional.

I also have a Dell C640 laptop (which I bought out my lease from the program of my former employer). It has a 2GHz P4, 512MB RAM, and a built in ATI Radeon 7500 chipset. It also runs SuSE 8.2 Professional.

I use WineX on my desktop machine to run some Windoze games, but run no M$ software, per se. True hardcore Linux users use no wine or WineX,... but I don't consider myself that hardcore. I try to run things natively if I can (Quake 3 Arena, Unreal Tournament 2003, Neverwinter Nights with Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of UnderDark expansions, Return to Castle Wolenstein, SimCity 3000, Descent 3, FreeSpace 1 & 2). But I run non Linux games as well (Homeworld 1 & 2, Jedi Academy, StarCraft, Pax Imperia, Fallout 1 & 2, Elite Force, etc.).

Is Linux the best??? For me it is. I still think there is room for improvement. I personally can't wait for a full distro based on the 2.6 kernel (pre-emtpive multithreading, native ATAPI support, etc.). However, I'd rather have an imperfect Linux solution that one that costs me $$$ and obligations in Micro$haft.
 
Old 03-09-2004, 04:51 AM   #27
RRepster
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>> As far as I'm able to understand, if you work and doesn't get paid you'll die of starvation. So, who's going to give you food & shelter why you program OSS programs. Nobody is going to pay you.. or? .. so you starve.

Ok, whenever I hear this arguement 100% of the time its turned out to be someone that has never used OSS software or especially modified it and thus benefitted it. Couple of points:

1) OSS doesn't necearilly mean FREE the money comes in through service plans and support programs when it comes to business applications. For the rest of us most oss software is small utility programs really and the big benefit is the programmers of it or us even don't have to re-invent the friggin wheel every time. It also lets us customize the program for our needs, an example is a card game I have - I didn't like the background .png so I changed it! And I'm even changing the cards completly by scanning in my own and editing them. Could I do that with a retail windows program? More than likely not.

2) even in the windows closed source world lots of software written for business their clients don't pay for the software - they often pay for the service. So most of your arguement just doesn't hold water.
 
Old 03-09-2004, 05:11 AM   #28
RRepster
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Re: Hard core linux users - anti Microsoft

Quote:
Originally posted by pahl
Do you use any microsoft products at all?

The more I use and learn about Linux the more I wonder why I spent so much money with M$ over the years.


Join the club. I'm never buying another M$ piece of software ever again, their entire business model is based on Upgrades to the OS to enhance their Office suite and now they've added the Media Edition line so we're going to start seeing (actually its already here) 2 types of windows - standard, and media edition (which replaces Home edition pretty much).

Quote:
Do you consider someone that uses Wine to run microsoft programs a hard core linux user?
No. They may have a need to run it. For example I'm considering Crossover office so I don't have to boot back to windows when I'm in my linux partition and need to work on my Access class homework. Also wine lets people use other windows only software in fact wine doesn't actually support many M$ products, just the custom closed versions like Xover Office does.

Quote:
I have two computers. A older 333MHZ with linux and a 1.7G computer with duel boot winXP/Linux
I would like to go 100% linux on both machines someday, but I'm not sure what the wife and kid would do not being able to play there games on winXP.

I find myself always using the old computer and linux just so I don't have to keep rebooting the new computer back into windows for the wife.
Face it, Linux still sucks for multimedia apps which is why I think its still wayyy too soon for the mass marketing that Lindows has been doing, people will buy those cheap computers only to find out they can't do much with them. It would be nice if this mass marketing would force software makers to finally make *nix ports but its a pipe dream.

If you find that you never need to use windows then make one computer your Linux computer and the other a windows one. At least then you'll only have one to constantly pay microsoft money for "upgrades" for. yeah, right "upgrades" fixes to a product we already own is more like it.

Yea, this is a little M$ bashing but lets face it it's a war here. Congress and the courts did jack $%^&* to them when they were found guilty of anti-trust because they themselves have stock in it, and so they continue their monopolistic practices. But they aint the only bad guy Apple had the gall to use BSD source for OSX and then gave nothin back, at least we should see them doing ports to *nix throw us a bone or something but no.

So what's the answer? There is none, Linux will continue to be nothing more than a hobby os for home use instead of multi-purpose, Apple will continue to have 1% of market share and no more because without an office package serious enough for business people won't be exposed to the platform to bother buying anything other than Windows for home. And Microsoft will continue to rule the world.
 
Old 03-09-2004, 05:28 AM   #29
urzumph
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Quote:
By the way have anybody seen a project that is not programming, running along the similar lines as open source. No..?
I think this is a very interesting topic.
It's a deffinate YES!
For a start, try www.wikipedia.org
Quote:
Wikipedia is a wiki-based free content encyclopedia which includes almanac-like and gazetteer-like information. Free means free to use, free to edit, and free to copy and redistribute. Wikipedia is multilingual, and an open-content, collaboratively developed creation, managed and operated by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation.
Then there's The Open Gaming Licence :
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.a...br/br20010720a
http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/ogl.html

Then the Open Music Licence :
http://openmusic.linuxtag.org/showitem.php?item=209

And Finally Creative Commons :
http://creativecommons.org/learn/licenses/
Of which, some famous websites are under (groklaw, et al)
 
Old 03-09-2004, 07:16 AM   #30
SylvainP
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RRepster wrote:
But they aint the only bad guy Apple had the gall to use BSD source for OSX and then gave nothin back

1. The BSD license permits not giving anything back.
2. They did give stuff back anyway, I'm almost sure there is code in Konqueror from them and look at this page: http://developer.apple.com/darwin/

To stay on topic:

My main computer at home is 100% Linux, and I dual boot at work but that's just because we're a computer company that only sell Windows computer and sometime I need a Window box to test things.
 
  


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