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Old 06-03-2003, 06:09 AM   #1
plisken
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Unhappy 2 week Linux trial... my findings


I have had my RH Linux box running for a couple of yeras now, and have found it very interesting indeed, but for the most part I have always resorted to using Windows for surfing, e-mail, word processing and any programing or updating of websites that I do.
My reasoning behind this is simply down to the fact that in the time I have used Linux, I have not found applications to match those which I use under Windows.

Up until 2 weeks or so ago, I had resigned my Linux box to serving web pages, and basically a file server. but I thought I'd give it a go, using it as my every day workstation, my findings are as follows:

My desktop enviroment is gnome, as it has always been, for e-mail, I used Mozilla, similarly for surfing, though I do find that many pages do not show correctly, which may not entirely be the browsers fault, but rather that of the web designer, but anyway...

For building web pages, I failed to find a suitable application, may just be me, but Frontpage seesm to suit my purposes completely.

Most of my programing is centered around VB, so I was at a loss there.

For the office suite, I tried both Star Office, and more receintly installed Open Office, neither of which were comparable in terms of performance to MS's offerings, obviously the price difference is a strong point in the Linux offerings, but I just could not get used to either of these suites of applications, they were slow and for some purposes, simply unusable.

So to sum up, I found that for me, at least, Linux is not a viable OS for my every day work, at least not yet. sure as a web server, file server, it gets the thumbs up, which is one of the reasons that I started experimenting with Linux anyway. I think one of the biggest dissapointments for me, would be the poor performance of the set-up. When using comparable hardware, even a Win2000 machine seems to outperform my Linux box, which is a pitty, as I have also found Win9* to be seriously quickery in every respect to Win2000.

There was one last thing that I done, when doing this experiment, that was to install Unreal Tournament. I play this on my Win2000 machine, and although as mentioned, it lacks in performance to that of a Win9* set-up, it is still very playable, but under Linux, forget it. I tried kiolling many open programs/services etc, but it made no differance. To give you an idea, on the menu screen, it took 5 seconds for the mouse pointer to responde to any movement. Perhaps this was a bad example, and there may be some fine performance tuning procedures that I am unaware of.

So, my Linux box will continue to run in the corner, doing what is seems to do well, that said, I have not run a web server on a Windows machine, and I will continue to use my Windows 2000 set-up for my every day work.

Don't get me wrong, I love Linux and the idea of it, hell I even wear Linux T-shirts on a Saturday night out...

As usual, all comments and recomendations are appreciated.
 
Old 06-03-2003, 06:39 AM   #2
kazuni
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here's a comparison table for the applications for windows <-> linux
http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/

hope that u find it useful
 
Old 06-03-2003, 08:44 AM   #3
trickykid
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Re: 2 week Linux trial... my findings

Quote:
Originally posted by plisken
My desktop enviroment is gnome, as it has always been, for e-mail, I used Mozilla, similarly for surfing, though I do find that many pages do not show correctly, which may not entirely be the browsers fault, but rather that of the web designer, but anyway...

For building web pages, I failed to find a suitable application, may just be me, but Frontpage seesm to suit my purposes completely.
I just have one or two comments regarding this.

First, yes most likely the problem with web pages not rendering properly were the web designer's fault. Which is usually the case probably 99.9% of the time as most will only code for IE, which is not W3C compatible. Mozilla is, nothing else to say about that really except.

Second, your most likely one of those designers who uses Frontpage which the pages don't render properly. Frontpage is a sorry excuse for a WYSIWYG editor for HTML pages, etc. It adds so much junk that isn't necessary and codes to M$ specifics as it seems. Trust me, they make me use it at work to update the Intranet and I hate it.. I requested Dreamweaver but they won't allow it for me to use. So Frontpage is so awful, I will usually update using Notepad..
I'm not bashing M$ in anyway, just Frontpage as I think its got to be the biggest joke software suite to create webpages. Oh well, not out to start a flamewar.. just an opinion as I used many different apps to create webpages and that one I try to stay away from.

In Linux, there aren't any Dreamweavers or Frontpages, but I either settle for just a simple text editor like vi on a console or maybe Bluefish while in X.

Good luck though...
 
Old 06-03-2003, 09:01 AM   #4
slightcrazed
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Your experience with Open Office/star Office not withstanding, the performance of Unreal Tournament seems to point to a Video driver issue, and not a Linux issue. 3D and OpenGl performance suffers greatly without proper driver support. The Nvidia GeForce line of cards has great Linux support, and with dual installs of RedHat 8 and win2000 on the same system I must say that native linux games (such as Return to Castle Wolfenstein and UT) consistently outperform their counterparts on windoze.

That being said, I think you are going through the same issues that alot of people have with Linux, at least in the begining. They expect it to be exactly like windows, or at the very least the expect that there will be enough similarities between windows apps and Linux apps that they will be comfortable using Linux apps immediately. Nothing could be further from the truth. Honestly, I think it takes a concentrated effort to force yourself to learn the OpenOffice/StarOffice products before you start to feel comfortable with them. After all, I'm certain you weren't instantly comfortable with Word/excel/powerpoint, it took time. Probably months or years instead of days/weeks. After really taking the time to learn OpenOffice, I am just as comfortable with it as I am with the M$ office suite, and I actually prefer it (OpenOffice) for many everyday tasks.

I guess my main point is, 2 weeks is certainly not enough time to evaluate software as complex as the openoffice and star office suites. Give it a fair chance. Learn to use it, spend time with the documentation and force yourself to use it, and after some time you might be pleasently surprised. If you still prefer M$ products, then thats OK. Open source software is all about giving people choice. The only difference is, unlike M$, we don't force you into choosing one option over another.

slight
 
Old 06-03-2003, 02:53 PM   #5
TigerOC
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The reference to performance is an interesting one. My first serious venture into Linux was with Mandrake and I found it extremely slow but before bailing out I decided to give Debian a go, having played with a version of Corel Linux for a few days. I absolutely love it. Its much quicker than '98 and display with Nvidia seems crisper than under M$. I have been using it for some 8 months now and use it for everything and days go by before using anything in Windoze. My pet hate with Windoze ('98) is the time it takes to load (because of local networking). From what I have experienced, and I have not tried RH, I would say that the commercial distros have a lot of bloat that tends to slow the system up. A cut down kernel with only the bare essentials is the way to go.
 
Old 06-03-2003, 04:34 PM   #6
Tinkster
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Re: 2 week Linux trial... my findings

Quote:
Originally posted by plisken
My desktop enviroment is gnome, as it has always been, for e-mail, I used Mozilla, similarly for surfing, though I do find that many pages do not show correctly, which may not entirely be the browsers fault, but rather that of the web designer, but anyway...
Yep, and it's most likely people like you, using MS
tools to create MS compatible pages.

Quote:
For building web pages, I failed to find a suitable application, may just be me, but Frontpage seesm to suit my purposes completely.
see above ... my recommendation would be
to learn HTML and the usage of an editor, and
test your own pages with at least one older browser
(NS 4.7?) on at least two platforms. Always bear
in mind that HTML was never meant as a layouting-/
typesetting standard, but rather for portability.

Quote:
Most of my programing is centered around VB, so I was at a loss there.
/me coughs .... tried Kylix?
Real code, in a real programming language! :D
C++ or Pascal...

Quote:
For the office suite, I tried both Star Office, and more receintly installed Open Office, neither of which were comparable in terms of performance to MS's offerings, obviously the price difference is a strong point in the Linux offerings, but I just could not get used to either of these suites of applications, they were slow and for some purposes, simply unusable.
The only thing that OO is slower at than MS Office
is the startup-phase, and that's because MS preloads
most of Office's DLL's on boot (same with exploder,
eerrh, explorer) ...

In the office's settings, set unload shared libraries to
let's say, 16 hours, then close and restart OO... you'll
be surprised ;)


Quote:
As usual, all comments and recomendations are appreciated.
No offense meant :)

Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 06-04-2003, 11:33 AM   #7
bigstrawdog
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yep, website building to be consistant across multiple platforms/browsers can be quite irritating. Try to avoid using M$ proprietary software and preview it in as many different platform/browser configurations as u can.

My personal preference is Dreamweaver MX (ya i gotta use it in XP ;(, although i did come across a site that details using Dreamweaver with Wine in Linux, sadly i cant find that page again)

also make use of the online resources such as

http://www.w3schools.com/default.asp

to help cross platform/browser validate your code, and stay away from visual designing (MM DMX is great for designing in code-view).

This is how i designed the site for my current employer
http://www.intergraphics-decal.com
and following these rules i was pleasantly surprised to see it look relatively the same as long as it was't viewed in a pre-CSS browser....
 
Old 06-04-2003, 12:46 PM   #8
rmartine
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigstrawdog
My personal preference is Dreamweaver MX (ya i gotta use it in XP ;(, although i did come across a site that details using Dreamweaver with Wine in Linux, sadly i cant find that page again)
I know this is off topic. My apologies. I found this link on installing Macromedia Dreamweaver MX on wine. I don't use Dreamweaver, I'd like to, so I haven't tested it. I haven't had the greatest luck using wine.

Good Luck

http://frankscorner.org/dreamweavermx.html
 
Old 06-04-2003, 01:17 PM   #9
tcaptain
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Quote:
* Tinkster coughs .... tried Kylix?
I'd like to jump in and also add:

KDevelop or Glade (if you like gtk and gnome).

Otherwise I agree, VB is nice when you're comfy in windows and you want quick and easy for proof of concept or something...but C and C++ are the real tools when you get down to the nitty gritty (and not tied to any vendor like M$)
 
Old 06-04-2003, 03:31 PM   #10
Tinkster
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Quote:
Originally posted by tcaptain
KDevelop or Glade (if you like gtk and gnome).
I haven't tried glade (because I can't stand Gnome ;})
but KDevelop is a just a nice IDE, whereas Kylix
will give you the graphical approach of whipping
up an interface and then fill in the code like VB
does ... :) ...just that you get real programming
languages instead ;)

Cheers,
Tink
 
Old 06-05-2003, 05:01 PM   #11
Flibble
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Runtime Revolution?

http://www.runrev.com

About as VB as it gets.

Flibble
 
Old 06-05-2003, 09:33 PM   #12
lostboy
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Talking

Quote:
I would say that the commercial distros have a lot of bloat that tends to slow the system up. A cut down kernel with only the bare essentials is the way to go.
I can appreciate this comment, however I have found that (at least in Slackware) the default kernel works extremely well. With the exception of having SCSI support built into the kernel, the modular nature of the default kernel is nice. It acts much like Windows' kernel. It doesn't seem that the kernel suffers from lack of speed. I suspect that the Windows kernel is highly modular, and that is why it's easy to add new hardware.

I find that it's much easier to leave the kernel as it is and just configure the proper modules to load. Doing things this way makes a fast and flexible kernel. This is of course with the exception of my compiling a new kernel with SCSI support built into the kernel. I just found it easier to do it that way.

I found (through much trial and error) that trying to build a new kernel completely from scratch, and trying to build too much into the kernel, makes a difficult situation to deal with. But that is probably because of my lack of experience with Linux.


JC
 
Old 06-05-2003, 09:55 PM   #13
contrasutra
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The slackware disk comes with a kernel patched with SCSI support. Just choose that one, except for scsi, its the same as bare.i. Maybe you should check the install options a little better.
 
Old 06-06-2003, 02:32 PM   #14
lostboy
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Talking

I was having trouble with getting the SCSI emulation to work properly, so i got impatient and compiled a new kernel with it built in, and left everything else just like the bare.i kernel.

I guess that it never occured to me that it would be even easier using the SCSI stock kernel.

Silly me.
 
Old 06-06-2003, 03:11 PM   #15
contrasutra
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You dont need a SCSI kernel to use SCSI-emulation (for a CDRW drive I assume).

The only thing you have to do is add:

append="hdx=ide-scsi" #where x is your cdrw drive.


Maybe you should read some more documentation.



@plisken: Also, with UT2003 running slow, did you install the official linux drivers from the ATI/nvidia site?? If you were just using the drivers that came w/ the distro, they are generic and not for 3D. See, legally,they cant really distribute the official drivers, so you have to download/install them yourself.
 
  


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