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Old 10-08-2013, 09:56 AM   #1
rnturn
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Anyone running Enlightenment 0.17.x on OpenSUSE?


The subject line sort of says it all.
  • Has anyone been running -- or tried to run -- Enlightenment 0.17.x on OpenSUSE?
    (BTW, I'm on 12.2 but looking at upgrading to 13.x in the not-too-distant future.)
  • If you have, how is/was that experience?
  • Were you able to find RPMs that allowed you to install it so that it was semi-integrated into the GUI login.
  • Or did you have to trash all that and manually edit a slew of files to specify Enlightenment as your desktop manager? (I'm not completely opposed to setting initdefault to `3' -- if systemd will let me, that is -- and issuing `startx' after logging in. Did it for years.)
Why am I looking to switch?

I've gotten a bit fed up with the way certain KDE applications crash every time the system gets a little loaded. (With 99.9% of those events involving KMail. I swear that there must be a counter that causes it to go south after reading a given number of emails whenever the memory usage is high.) In order to save some memory, I've disabled about everything I can that could be eating excessive amounts of RAM. I've been using Enlightenment 0.16 for the past few days (after not using it for several years) but OpenSUSE or Packman don't seem to have RPMs for 0.17. The 0.16 version does seem to allow more RAM to be used for applications. When I was running KDE's desktop I was seeing about 500MB free and at that level things were really starting to slow down. Under E0.16 I'm seeing nearly 1GB free and, as I expected from my prior E experience, daily tasks are zippier. And, strangely, KMail hasn't crashed since changing the desktop manager to Enlightenment. (Oops... it just crashed while I was composing this post but that's just the first time in 3-4 days as opposed to 3-4 times per afternoon.)

BTW, (and just a bit off-topic) the one bit of KDE I haven't found a way to get rid of is `akonadi'; it seems to be insinuated into everything KDE-related. There are currently 72 threads running something `akonadi' related with 32 `akonadiserver' threads alone -- including a couple for `akonadi_nepomuk' and I've disabled `nepomuk' in the KDE configuration -- and 47 `mysql' threads that seem to appear whenever `akonadi' raises its ugly head. (Over 25% of the running threads on my desktop seem to be `akonadi'-related; a little excessive IMNSHO.) Exit KMail and KOrganizer and all that akonadi crap is still running ([sigh] $DIETY only knows what else I supposedly need it for). If it weren't for `KMail' and, especially, `KOrganizer' I'd be leaving KDE altogether. (I AM looking at setting up Horde for those functions but it's going to take a while before I can embark on that journey and that's best left to be the subject of future thread.)

Any Enlightenment -- or even other tips that will let me reclaim more resources from my desktop -- are most welcome.

TIA...

--
Rick
 
Old 10-08-2013, 10:45 AM   #2
redfox2807
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Yast has a setting for default WM. It should be in /etc/sysconfig submenu IIRC. I don't remeber if I used e17 on SuSE (it was SuSE at the moment, not OpenSuSE yet), but I remember that I never needed to change init if I wanted to try a new WM.

Your problem sound more like a hardware one. Have you tried to run a memotest?
 
Old 10-08-2013, 12:21 PM   #3
salasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnturn View Post
The subject line sort of says it all.
  • Has anyone been running -- or tried to run -- Enlightenment 0.17.x on OpenSUSE?
    (BTW, I'm on 12.2 but looking at upgrading to 13.x in the not-too-distant future.)
I'm not sure how much this helps, but this is what I've got:

at least the following are available; there is probably more from the web search app, but the most notable thing here is that the version numbers seem totally mysterious to me - I'm used to e17 having numbers that start something like 0.17.xxx, and I really don't understand what this is telling me. If it helps you....then I'll be surprised



S | Name | Type | Version | Arch | Repository
--+---------------------------+---------+--------------+--------+--------------------
v | enlightenment | package | 1.0.11-2.1.1 | i586 | openSUSE-12.3-Oss
name: enlightenment
i | enlightenment | package | 1.0.11-2.1.1 | x86_64 | openSUSE-12.3-Oss
name: enlightenment
i | enlightenment | package | 1.0.11-2.1.1 | x86_64 | (System Packages)
name: enlightenment
| enlightenment-debuginfo | package | 1.0.11-2.1.1 | i586 | openSUSE-12.3-Debug
name: enlightenment-debuginfo
| enlightenment-debuginfo | package | 1.0.11-2.1.1 | x86_64 | openSUSE-12.3-Debug
name: enlightenment-debuginfo
| enlightenment-debugsource | package | 1.0.11-2.1.1 | i586 | openSUSE-12.3-Debug
name: enlightenment-debugsource
| enlightenment-debugsource | package | 1.0.11-2.1.1 | x86_64 | openSUSE-12.3-Debug
name: enlightenment-debugsource

I'm pretty sure that these are all e 17, but why they don't have a 17 in the name is a mystery to me.

The website gives the following info:

Quote:
A Good-Looking Window Manager for the X Window System

Enlightenment is a window manager for the X Window System that is
designed to be powerful, extensible, configurable, and very good
looking. It is one of the more graphically intense window managers.

Enlightenment goes beyond managing windows by providing a useful and
appealing graphical shell from which to work. It is open in design and,
instead of dictating a policy, it allows the user to define their own
policy, down to every last detail.
(Well, you knew all that....)

Quote:
Direct Install
openSUSE 12.3, Version 1.0.11, 892 KB
openSUSE Factory official release 1.0.13 32 Bit 64 Bit
Source 1 Click Install
Show unstable packages
openSUSE 12.3 official release 1.0.11 32 Bit 64 Bit
Source 1 Click Install
Show unstable packages
openSUSE 12.2 official release 1.0.0 32 Bit 64 Bit
Source 1 Click Install
so, there is at least the suggestion that 1.0.0 is available for 12.2, 1.0.11 for 12.3 and the likelihood seems to be that something like 1.0.13 is likely to be made available for 13.1, when that becomes available (November, sometime????). (But, do bear in mind that I don't understand this numbering scheme)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rnturn View Post
[*]Were you able to find RPMs that allowed you to install it so that it was semi-integrated into the GUI login.
[*]Or did you have to trash all that and manually edit a slew of files to specify Enlightenment as your desktop manager? (I'm not completely opposed to setting initdefault to `3' -- if systemd will let me, that is -- and issuing `startx' after logging in. Did it for years.)[/LIST]
just went with the standard package, and got the 'chooser' (ie, the thing that lets you choose when you sign in with your user name and password...just look carefully, as some people don't notice the option). Pretty sure that I didn't mess around with rpms from anywhere else at all. search on the website should be all that you need (although the one click install attracts some criticism).

Quote:
Originally Posted by rnturn View Post
Why am I looking to switch?

I've gotten a bit fed up with the way certain KDE applications crash every time the system gets a little loaded. (With 99.9% of those events involving KMail. I swear that there must be a counter that causes it to go south after reading a given number of emails whenever the memory usage is high.) In order to save some memory, I've disabled about everything I can that could be eating excessive amounts of RAM. I've been using Enlightenment 0.16 for the past few days (after not using it for several years) but OpenSUSE or Packman don't seem to have RPMs for 0.17. The 0.16 version does seem to allow more RAM to be used for applications. When I was running KDE's desktop I was seeing about 500MB free and at that level things were really starting to slow down. Under E0.16 I'm seeing nearly 1GB free and, as I expected from my prior E experience, daily tasks are zippier. And, strangely, KMail hasn't crashed since changing the desktop manager to Enlightenment. (Oops... it just crashed while I was composing this post but that's just the first time in 3-4 days as opposed to 3-4 times per afternoon.)

BTW, (and just a bit off-topic) the one bit of KDE I haven't found a way to get rid of is `akonadi'; it seems to be insinuated into everything KDE-related. There are currently 72 threads running something `akonadi' related with 32 `akonadiserver' threads alone -- including a couple for `akonadi_nepomuk' and I've disabled `nepomuk' in the KDE configuration -- and 47 `mysql' threads that seem to appear whenever `akonadi' raises its ugly head. (Over 25% of the running threads on my desktop seem to be `akonadi'-related; a little excessive IMNSHO.) Exit KMail and KOrganizer and all that akonadi crap is still running ([sigh] $DIETY only knows what else I supposedly need it for). If it weren't for `KMail' and, especially, `KOrganizer' I'd be leaving KDE altogether. (I AM looking at setting up Horde for those functions but it's going to take a while before I can embark on that journey and that's best left to be the subject of future thread.)
The akonadi bit is definitely curable (I'm saying that having cured it, I just don't remember how I did it...I'll drag out my install notes and maybe they will reveal all, but it can't be all that difficult, given that I succeeded without suffering any mental scars).

Quote:
Originally Posted by rnturn View Post
a little excessive IMNSHO...
For whatever its worth, I've got one of those (a NSHO), and it agrees with yours. Stupid. Just stupid.

You don't need any of this cr*p if you don't use the semantic desktop stuff, and as the semantic desktop stuff, while a vaguely attractive sounding idea has been under 'active development' (ie, doesn't really work yet) for at least a couple of years, without snuggling up particularly close to working, so I don't know why you would. Maybe when it does something useful...
 
Old 10-08-2013, 01:28 PM   #4
rnturn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox2807 View Post
Yast has a setting for default WM. It should be in /etc/sysconfig submenu IIRC. I don't remeber if I used e17 on SuSE (it was SuSE at the moment, not OpenSuSE yet), but I remember that I never needed to change init if I wanted to try a new WM.
I brought up the `inittab' change only because I doubt that the Enlightenment folks have created tar archives that easily integrate into the login GUI's ideas about where valid desktop managers are located (haven't looked into that yet). The OpenSUSE team has done that for me and I don't want to break that by trying to layer 0.17 on top of that, possibly overwrite something, and have to do a reinstallation to get back my current desktop operation. Editing /etc/inittab and the local X startup files in my home directory seems far safer if that's what I need to do. Having 0.17 (I gotta remember to start calling it DR17) RPMs available would be ideal. It's been quite a while since I've done the manual installation of Enlightenment so I'm hoping someone's done the hard stuff and can fill me in on what they needed to do. A pointer to an OpenSUSE-compatible RPM would be nice but likely a pipe dream for now.

Quote:
Your problem sound more like a hardware one. Have you tried to run a memotest?
Something tells me that more applications would be experiencing crashes if this were a hardware problem. Memtest86 is not an option on my GRUB menu but it might be on a distribution DVD. I can run it tonight just to be able to cross that off the list.

Later...

--
Rick
 
Old 10-08-2013, 01:59 PM   #5
redfox2807
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There are rpms actually: http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Enlightenment

Quote:
Something tells me that more applications would be experiencing crashes if this were a hardware problem. Memtest86 is not an option on my GRUB menu but it might be on a distribution DVD. I can run it tonight just to be able to cross that off the list.
Right, but if it is a KMail bug you would hit it every now and then, not just when you have your system loaded. When do you have crashes? I mean what are you doing when KMail crashes?
 
Old 10-08-2013, 02:06 PM   #6
rnturn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salasi View Post
I'm pretty sure that these are all e 17, but why they don't have a 17 in the name is a mystery to me.
``Noooo... that's just what they'd be expecting.''

So it seems I'm one OpenSUSE release away from having at least some form of DR17? Wouldn't you know it.

Quote:
there is at least the suggestion that 1.0.0 is available for 12.2, 1.0.11 for 12.3 and the likelihood seems to be that something like 1.0.13 is likely to be made available for 13.1, when that becomes available (November, sometime????). (But, do bear in mind that I don't understand this numbering scheme)
The numbering scheme doesn't make sense to me either. INsee where 0.17 -> DR17 but even that's a little mysterious. 1.0.x? Huh? Maybe that's the OpenSUSE team's package numbering scheme.

Quote:
just went with the standard package, and got the 'chooser' (ie, the thing that lets you choose when you sign in with your user name and password...just look carefully, as some people don't notice the option). Pretty sure that I didn't mess around with rpms from anywhere else at all. search on the website should be all that you need (although the one click install attracts some criticism).
The opensuse.org site (or was it Packman) had RPMs for DR16 for 12.2. Are you referring to the Enlightenment site?

Quote:
You don't need any of this cr*p if you don't use the semantic desktop stuff, and as the semantic desktop stuff, while a vaguely attractive sounding idea has been under 'active development' (ie, doesn't really work yet) for at least a couple of years, without snuggling up particularly close to working, so I don't know why you would. Maybe when it does something useful...
The only utility that I can see needing a database is KOrganizer. And I even find it to be a stretch to say `needs' for that since it seems everything I do with it is contained in iCal files.) All these utilities seemed to work just fine before `akonadi' came along.

Thanks for the insights. I'll dig a little deeper into the newer OpenSUSE release(s) and see if maybe I can hold out a little longer until DR17 becomes part of the standard distribution.

--
Rick
 
Old 10-08-2013, 02:29 PM   #7
rnturn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox2807 View Post
Ah... That's a different repository. Seems I'll need to go into YaST and update my list. Thanks.

Quote:
Right, but if it is a KMail bug you would hit it every now and then, not just when you have your system loaded. When do you have crashes? I mean what are you doing when KMail crashes?
Typically the crashes occur when I'm dragging an email (or several highlighted emails) into a folder; a fairly routine KMail action. When the system is heavily loaded I don't meant that the load (as seen by uptime, for example) is high. It's that memory use is high. I could have a couple of Firefox windows open each with many tabs. I might have Gimp running with several large images opened at the same time. (Sometimes both of those.) Nothing that I would consider extraordinary use but enough that swap space was being used. (Extraordinary use was when I wrote a `stress test' script years ago to open up several hundred JPEGs using `xv'. Even that didn't cause the system to fall over or any applications to crash. Operations just got extre-e-e-mely slow.)

Again, thanks...

--
Rick
 
Old 10-08-2013, 02:52 PM   #8
redfox2807
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Is it your bug: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=287923? You can try to update KDE.
 
Old 10-08-2013, 04:07 PM   #9
rnturn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox2807 View Post
Is it your bug: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=287923? You can try to update KDE.
It could be though that's not the only situation under which KMail is/was crashing. Another one occurs when allowing it to automatically load external images in HTML mail messages which can sometimes cause KMail to crash by merely highlighting a presumably badly formed email message. I ran into one of those this afternoon and couldn't even delete the darned thing until I disabled the autoload option. (Even highlighting another email and trying to select the bad one with Ctrl-left-click would crash KMail as it still tries to render the most recently highlighted email.) There could be multiple things broken in this version.

--
Rick
 
Old 10-09-2013, 05:22 AM   #10
salasi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnturn View Post

The opensuse.org site (or was it Packman) had RPMs for DR16 for 12.2. Are you referring to the Enlightenment site?
I'm not referring to Packman or Enlightenment's own site. While I do have packman enabled, I try to stick to the Suse-hosted repos where possible (packman seems to take longer to grab the updated repo index than anything else and I set it to a low (ie, high...to avoid confusion) priority, so that if something is available from $somewhere_else, the default is to get it from $somewhere_else.

eg

Code:
<==================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================>
#  | Alias                                                            | Name                                                             | Enabled | Refresh | Priority | Type   | URI                                                                                                                              | Service
---+------------------------------------------------------------------+------------------------------------------------------------------+---------+---------+----------+--------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+--------
 2 | home:D_E:sorta-tools                                             | home:D_E:sorta-tools                                             | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/D_E:/sorta-tools/openSUSE_12.3/                                                  |        
 3 | home:Lazy_Kent                                                   | home:Lazy_Kent                                                   | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/Lazy_Kent/openSUSE_12.3/                                                         |        
 4 | home:danci1973                                                   | home:danci1973                                                   | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/danci1973/openSUSE_12.3/                                                         |        
 5 | home:mournblade:branches:home:rjlemley76:branches:Mono:Community | home:mournblade:branches:home:rjlemley76:branches:Mono:Community | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/mournblade:/branches:/home:/rjlemley76:/branches:/Mono:/Community/openSUSE_12.3/ |        
 6 | home:tampakrap                                                   | home:tampakrap                                                   | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/tampakrap/openSUSE_12.3/                                                         |        
 7 | network:utilities                                                | network:utilities                                                | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/network:/utilities/openSUSE_12.3/                                                      |        
 8 | openSUSE-12.3-1.7                                                | openSUSE-12.3-1.7                                                | No      | No      |   99     | yast2  | cd:///?devices=/dev/disk/by-id/ata-HL-DT-ST_DVDRAM_GMA-4082N_M3E77VG1429,/dev/sr0                                                |        
10 | repo-debug                                                       | openSUSE-12.3-Debug                                              | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | yast2  | http://download.opensuse.org/debug/distribution/12.3/repo/oss/                                                                   |        
11 | repo-debug-update                                                | openSUSE-12.3-Update-Debug                                       | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/debug/update/12.3/                                                                                  |        
12 | repo-debug-update-non-oss                                        | openSUSE-12.3-Update-Debug-Non-Oss                               | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/debug/update/12.3-non-oss/                                                                          |        
13 | repo-non-oss                                                     | openSUSE-12.3-Non-Oss                                            | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | yast2  | http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/12.3/repo/non-oss/                                                                     |        
14 | repo-oss                                                         | openSUSE-12.3-Oss                                                | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | yast2  | http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/12.3/repo/oss/                                                                         |        
15 | repo-source                                                      | openSUSE-12.3-Source                                             | No      | Yes     |   99     | NONE   | http://download.opensuse.org/source/distribution/12.3/repo/oss/                                                                  |        
16 | repo-update                                                      | openSUSE-12.3-Update                                             | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/update/12.3/                                                                                        |        
17 | repo-update-non-oss                                              | openSUSE-12.3-Update-Non-Oss                                     | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/update/12.3-non-oss/                                                                                |        
18 | server:monitoring                                                | server:monitoring                                                | Yes     | Yes     |   99     | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/server:/monitoring/openSUSE_12.3/                                                      |        
 1 | DD                                                               | Doiggl Drupal                                                    | Yes     | Yes     |  115     | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/doiggl/openSUSE_12.3/                                                            |        
 9 | pman                                                             | Packman - all                                                    | Yes     | Yes     |  115     | rpm-md | http://packman.inode.at/suse/12.3/                                                                                               |
It is only after including that that I realise i haven't stuck to my normal rule of putting all of the 'community' repos to a higher (that is lower) priority and, to be consistent, I should really do something about sorta-tools, Lazy_Kent, danci1973 and mournblade (whatever they are...I'm sure there was some perfectly good reason for them, at the time).

Quote:
Originally Posted by rnturn View Post

The only utility that I can see needing a database is KOrganizer. And I even find it to be a stretch to say `needs' for that since it seems everything I do with it is contained in iCal files.) All these utilities seemed to work just fine before `akonadi' came along.

I'm still trying to recover from the idea that a GUI would need a database for its default set-up. I could understand a set-up where you could opt in to extra snazzy stuff which needed a database, but a system where you have to go around disabling this crazy stuff? That just doesn't make sense to me. So, I just disable anything that uses too many resources or does mad things, and I will probably keep on doing that until someone demonstrates and advantage (which will probably be years after the advantage exists, but there you go).

How does anyone with a low resource computer cope with this? Probably, badly, but opt in would be more sensible than opt out, as the computer wouldn't start up with all the bells and whistles enabled (and wasn't this all just enabled at the time that mysql transitioned from being a perfectly respectable open source program, to a Sun bauble to an Oracle profit centre...OK, I wouldn't have made that point if it wasn't Oracle, but, timing, that's all I can say, timing.) Anyway, that's in the off-topic section.
 
Old 10-09-2013, 07:33 AM   #11
salasi
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OK, promised (well, intimated that I would, at least) some stuff from my install notes on 'fixing' kde.

I hope that this is comprehensible, because I didn't understand it 'till I re-wrote it, which suggests that I haven't been doing a good enough job... (err, and I wrote it, and not all that long ago, too). The details are probably up-to-date for openSUSE 12.3, but there is probably a very similar set of options in the kde in the version that you have.

Quote:
Desktop search > Nepomuk/Strigi config > Basic Settings; do not enable (or, if already enabled, disable it now) Nepomuk Semantic desktop (Desktop Search Services may show as active, but in the details link, it should show them as not active).

(In 'System Settings>Desktop Search'; basic Settings can be set to 'off' (That is, 'enable nepomuk semantic desktop' is not ticked). further, under 'indexing', none of the various index options (index documents, index audio, index videos, etc need to be ticked.)
 
Old 10-09-2013, 08:00 AM   #12
rnturn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salasi View Post
I'm not referring to Packman or Enlightenment's own site.
I set up "http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/X11:/Enlightenment:/Factory/openSUSE_12.2" in my repository list and grabbed everything E17-related. Unfortunately, when I try to use that as the desktop manager I get a black screen with a mouse pointer that does nothing. [sigh] Tried a reboot in the off chance that might be needed but it didn't help (didn't expect it to, really). `htop' shows that only a handful of processes are started when I log in. The first one listed was `enlightenment_start' which, apparently, isn't able to start. Perhaps the `Factory' directory was not the place to grab RPMs. I'm back to DR16 for now.

Quote:
I'm still trying to recover from the idea that a GUI would need a database for its default set-up. I could understand a set-up where you could opt in to extra snazzy stuff which needed a database, but a system where you have to go around disabling this crazy stuff? That just doesn't make sense to me. So, I just disable anything that uses too many resources or does mad things, and I will probably keep on doing that until someone demonstrates and advantage (which will probably be years after the advantage exists, but there you go).
It was bad enough when desktop configuration went from plain ol' ASCII files to XML. Now we've gone to a pretty much undocumented database store and the Registry-ization of the Linux desktop is now complete.

Quote:
How does anyone with a low resource computer cope with this? Probably, badly, but opt in would be more sensible than opt out, as the computer wouldn't start up with all the bells and whistles enabled (and wasn't this all just enabled at the time that mysql transitioned from being a perfectly respectable open source program, to a Sun bauble to an Oracle profit centre...OK, I wouldn't have made that point if it wasn't Oracle, but, timing, that's all I can say, timing.) Anyway, that's in the off-topic section.
Indeed. I still run an ancient Pentium MMX-based system (firewall) that doesn't even have enough memory to run a current distribution's installer. Any more, it's becoming next to impossible to standardize on a ``modern'' distribution because of the difficulty in dealing with low amounts of system memory. But... as you said: off-topic.

Now I'm off to try and figure out why E17 just sits there. If anyone else has encountered this, tips on bringing E17 to life are welcomed.

Later...

--
Rick
 
Old 10-09-2013, 04:03 PM   #13
salasi
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Originally Posted by rnturn View Post
I set up "http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/X11:/Enlightenment:/Factory/openSUSE_12.2" in my repository list and grabbed everything E17-related. Unfortunately, when I try to use that as the desktop manager I get a black screen with a mouse pointer that does nothing. [sigh]
Actually, now you mention the black screen and mouse pointer part, I have seen that on a previous version (openSUSE 12.1 maybe). So, I think it is probably some kind of common problem, but, less usefully, I don't have an answer. I never really get around to doing much to debug it, so can't offer any help there, but you'd have to suspect something suse-unique, like file locations, or something systemd related.

You might have more chance of a constructive answer on the openSUSE forums, I don't know.
 
Old 10-09-2013, 04:38 PM   #14
rnturn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salasi View Post
You might have more chance of a constructive answer on the openSUSE forums, I don't know.
I found a thread over there that I didn't fully understand. It looks like loading E17 using the software manager wasn't the right way to do it. The process also described on the forum mentions a ``YaST Wizard'' which I do not see. I'll give it another shot tonight.

Later...

--
Rick
 
  


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