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Old 12-08-2012, 04:22 AM   #16
wstewart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markush View Post
But when you explain "how to add a user" to the boy from the street, he will be able to do it within two minutes. But if the guy with the certificat experiences "strange network problems", he needs experience for the troubleshooting. The difference is that these tasks which one has to do when he wants to require a certificate can be done with reading the manpages (and excercises).

As for Germany, you're right, Redhat is not as common as Debian or Suse for Servers, often they use Ubuntu, I work primarily in Windows-networks.

Markus

Try configuring an ftp server or a dns server from man pages because those are both tasks on the rhcsa and rhce exams and the man pages are not going to provide you with step my step information on how to set them up. If you know what you're doing then you may be able to look at a man page for a switch that you forgot but if you don't know how to do simple tasks in linux then you're probably not going to know that you need to change permissions on a folder to get your dns zone file to be read much less know the appropriate command to change permissions. You probably won't even know what a zone file is. Like I said before, plenty of people who actually know how to use linux but didn't have the experience have failed the exam because it's not as simple as just reading a book or even reading man pages which you probably won't even have time to do on the advanced exams. Almost every linux admin job posting that I've seen asks for the RHCE. It's not a requirement because it's an expensive cert to obtain and keep up with if your employer isn't paying for you but it's a well respected cert over here because you can't obtain it without actually knowing how to do system administration tasks. Most people don't even asks for the RHCA and the people I've heard about who actually managed to make it through all 7 tests usually work for Red Hat.

Last edited by wstewart; 12-08-2012 at 04:33 AM.
 
Old 12-08-2012, 04:33 AM   #17
wstewart
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And don't even get me started on selinux. If you don't know how to use selinux then it's going to be a thorn in your side preventing you from successfully completing any task. You making doing system administration on a linux system seem like a trivial thing that doesn't require years of experience. Just because they don't make the experience a hard requirement doesn't mean you won't fail if you don't have any experience. You won't get by just by sort of knowing what your doing either.
 
Old 12-09-2012, 07:43 PM   #18
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wstewart View Post
Torrent with question and answers? Obviously your still not listening. There are no questions and answers on the RHCA exams. You are required to do the actual tasks to pass the exams and anybody who can't do the actual tasks asked of them without the ability to look anything up online or ask questions is going to fail period. You're not going to find a torrent to help you get an RHCA.
No, I'm listening...but again, you seem to be bound and determined to call folks liars, and think that only your opinion is the right one. Yes, you have to perform tasks. If you read something over and over, and AGAIN, practice on a system you can build at home, you will be able to perform a task, WITHOUT KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING. Your reasoning is like saying "No one but a highly skilled engineer could build a car engine...they are very complex, and it will take years to master that". But that's not true...you could give someone a book with step-by-step directions (and pictures), and they could do it. DESIGNING one and KNOWING how they work is one thing....being able to parrot back something is another.
Quote:
There are 75,000 certified Red Hat professionals in the world, 40,000 RHCEs as of 2009 and a smaller percentage of them have an RHCA.
Nope..there are 75,000 people with certificates. A much smaller portion of those know what they're doing.
Quote:
Thats like saying you know a CCIE who can't shut down an interface. Chances are if they made it to RHCA level they've spent a lot of time on an actual linux system preparing for the exam because as I said before it's not a question and answer test.
You don't have to say it, or keep saying it...I know what the test entails. And no matter WHAT you say, it doesn't change the fact that I've met these people (many of them), and they aren't alone. You still are missing the point...you're looking at this from the point of view of someone who WOULD take the test for the right reasons...because they're skilled, and want to prove it. You're not even acknowledging that there are folks who don't CARE about that, and just want a piece of paper.

Are there skilled, intelligent people who have MBA's? There sure are...but there are many more who just got it to SAY they got it, and are dumb as a bag of doorknobs. Saying those folks don't exist is just a stupid as saying that anyone with RH certifications are always perfectly qualified.
Quote:
So no you can't just find a torrent with the questions and answers and yes I'm calling you a liar if you claim you know MANY RHCAs who can't do soemthing as simple as "useradd <username>". Red Hat doesn't require the experience, they only recommend it. They'd be more than happy to take the money of some fool who thinks he really can just find a torrent with questions and answer to pass the test.
Whatever you say; as before, I honestly don't care what you believe, since you're acting like you're a child. You're wrong, rude, and obviously think that a certification matters. It doesn't.

Last edited by TB0ne; 12-09-2012 at 07:44 PM.
 
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:53 AM   #19
acid_kewpie
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Personally I was very disappointed with the RHCE when I did it. I found it insultingly trivial, and made me not really value it at all. There's no way I'd let someone loose on a RedHat system just on the basis they had an RHCE.
 
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:16 AM   #20
markush
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acid_kewpie View Post
Personally I was very disappointed with the RHCE when I did it. I found it insultingly trivial, and made me not really value it at all...
acid_kewpie, that's interesting, but what was your experience with Linux before you went for the certification? I'm sure that for someone with several years of Unix/Linx administration it is relatively easy. But otherwise I understand that TB0ne has made negative experiences with those RHCE who got the certificate without (in my opinion necessary) experience in the Job.

Markus
 
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:18 AM   #21
acid_kewpie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markush View Post
acid_kewpie, that's interesting, but what was your experience with Linux before you went for the certification? I'm sure that for someone with several years of Unix/Linx administration it is relatively easy. But otherwise I understand that TB0ne has made negative experiences with those RHCE who got the certificate without (in my opinion necessary) experience in the Job.

Markus
Well I'd been a Mod here for about 4 years I think, but I had ZERO professional experience. my IT career started through ISDN, LAN and MPLS networking, as much as I would have rather been a sysadmin. I wasn't a professional sysadmin until 3 years after I got it.
 
Old 12-10-2012, 07:03 AM   #22
llmi187
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Hello!

Hello!

I am try to prevent my computer I am try to put memory in IANA port number,take security advanced.Yes,I have already study all product(juniper,red hat,suse,cisco,apple,microsoft,vmware,IBM,Oracle,blackberry,zte,huawei etc.,) I am realize their architect.But I have need to take certificate.Certificate tell your qualify or unqualify.Without certificate don't think to apply in job,company didn't believe you.Moreover certificate tell your skill and knowledge.They have their recertificate.Without certificate you are under certificate person and yes it was right you are slave.

Last edited by llmi187; 12-10-2012 at 07:08 AM.
 
Old 12-10-2012, 08:33 AM   #23
TB0ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llmi187 View Post
Hello!

I am try to prevent my computer I am try to put memory in IANA port number,take security advanced.Yes,I have already study all product(juniper,red hat,suse,cisco,apple,microsoft,vmware,IBM,Oracle,blackberry,zte,huawei etc.,) I am realize their architect.But I have need to take certificate.Certificate tell your qualify or unqualify.Without certificate don't think to apply in job,company didn't believe you.Moreover certificate tell your skill and knowledge.They have their recertificate.Without certificate you are under certificate person and yes it was right you are slave.
No idea what you're trying to say. And sorry, it may be that in your part of the world you NEED a certificate to get a job, but it's not the case everywhere else.

Certificates do NOT tell anyone that you're qualified...it tells them you have a certificate. See this and many other threads here about this. I interview people with experience FIRST.
 
Old 12-10-2012, 09:21 AM   #24
onebuck
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Moderator Response

Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by wstewart View Post
<snip>
So no you can't just find a torrent with the questions and answers and yes I'm calling you a liar if you claim you know MANY RHCAs who can't do soemthing as simple as "useradd <username>". Red Hat doesn't require the experience, they only recommend it. They'd be more than happy to take the money of some fool who thinks he really can just find a torrent with questions and answer to pass the test.
Please show some respect. No personal attacks are allowed here at LQ, so you might wish to re-read;
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LQ Rules
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It is nice to have a open constructive debate between members but when the tone gets to strong then things can become heated therefore sometimes we fail to use good sense or have respect for other members.

So I ask you and other members participating within this thread to show respect for each other. It is nice to have a personal opinion, consider the other member's points of view too;
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:32 AM   #25
scottbro
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TB0ne most people with an RHCE make a pretty good amount of money according to statistical data. Now their salary isn't due to their certification alone but these are just the average salaries of what people who have an RHCE certification are making. Some of these people may have an RHCA, some of them may not. Every RHCA has an RHCE and they are most likely on the higher end of these numbers.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/...RHCE%29/Salary

While I'm pretty sure the people making those salaries have plenty of experience to back them, I find it pretty unlikely that too many of them would be looking for a job in Birmingham AL which according to more statistical data is one of the worst places to find a technology job

http://readwrite.com/2012/07/27/5-be...ind-a-tech-job

Especially to the point where you say that you have met 7 of them trying to get a job at your place of work. I noticed you only said "certified folks" in your post and never seemed to actually say RHCA. Please be a little more specific as this post seems to be inquiring about the RHCA and CCIE.

My next point. While many IT professionals don't place much value in certifications, IT employers do hold at least some value in them or you wouldn't see certifications as a requirement in so many job postings. Plenty of resumes get tossed in the trash by HR for not meeting certification requirements. This is usually not as true in the linux world as it is in other areas in IT.

In fact, the RHCE is not even that popular of a cert among non linux/unix people. The RHCA is even less popular. I doubt somebody who is just looking to get certified without wanting the knowledge would sit through 7 very expensive exams to get a certification that most employers may not know about and won't do much for you outside of the linux world. Chances are if they got that certification, they wanted to know about or already work with linux, otherwise they would have just gotten the A+ or a Cisco cert. Both are much more widely known and a lot cheaper. If they got an employer to pay over $4000 dollars for a certification and a few thousand more for training, then I'm pretty sure that employee would have had to have been at that company for awhile and have already demonstrated the ability to do his job to his employer.

Last edited by scottbro; 12-11-2012 at 05:47 AM.
 
Old 12-11-2012, 07:30 AM   #26
llmi187
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Hello!Tb0ne

Quote:
Originally Posted by TB0ne View Post
No idea what you're trying to say. And sorry, it may be that in your part of the world you NEED a certificate to get a job, but it's not the case everywhere else.

Certificates do NOT tell anyone that you're qualified...it tells them you have a certificate. See this and many other threads here about this. I interview people with experience FIRST.
Hello!Tb0ne
Yes certificate is proof your qualified or unqualify athough you can interview with your bossy .Without certificate how your company believe .Yes I heard some people make money with certificate, and company didn't know their what they are doing? but gradually they will get experience in working industry.

You know if you don't have certificate you go to work company for example they accept you but you need to think about that you are under certificate person.Even you don't have to permission to hold configuration guide.In company only certificate can hold configuration guide, at the time you should work with your memory during configuration or trouble shooting.
 
Old 12-11-2012, 08:34 AM   #27
acid_kewpie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llmi187 View Post
In company only certificate can hold configuration guide
Do you mean that only certified professionals are allowed to use configuration guides?? Pardon?

It's not that easy to understand what you're trying to say, but it does seem that you perceive the certifications to be MUCH more important than they actually are.

Just like passing your driving test is NOT proof you are a good driver, just that you know how to satisfy the requirements of the test, a certification does not at all mean that you know how to do the job.

I have come to understand that this is looked upon extremely different in places like the Indian subcontintent, where you genuinely need certifications to get an interview int eh first place, but that doesn't make the cert itself any more or less valid in itself.
 
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:58 AM   #28
llmi187
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Hello!acid_kewpie

Quote:
Originally Posted by acid_kewpie View Post
Do you mean that only certified professionals are allowed to use configuration guides?? Pardon?

It's not that easy to understand what you're trying to say, but it does seem that you perceive the certifications to be MUCH more important than they actually are.

Just like passing your driving test is NOT proof you are a good driver, just that you know how to satisfy the requirements of the test, a certification does not at all mean that you know how to do the job.

I have come to understand that this is looked upon extremely different in places like the Indian subcontintent, where you genuinely need certifications to get an interview int eh first place, but that doesn't make the cert itself any more or less valid in itself.
Hello!Acid_Kewpie

I mean some web-site say uncertificate person and certificate person are different salary and different position.For example only certified professionals are allowed to use configuration guides.So uncertificate person can't allow to hold configuration guide, although they have experience in job ,should use their memory ,and try to configuration their-self, they think they need it certificate like them and jealous about that.
 
Old 12-12-2012, 03:53 PM   #29
acid_kewpie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llmi187 View Post
Hello!Acid_Kewpie

I mean some web-site say uncertificate person and certificate person are different salary and different position.For example only certified professionals are allowed to use configuration guides.So uncertificate person can't allow to hold configuration guide, although they have experience in job ,should use their memory ,and try to configuration their-self, they think they need it certificate like them and jealous about that.
Well I'd suggest that whilst that what these sites say, the logic is backwards. More skilled people are more likely to already hold higher level certificates. it's still their knowledge and experience that gets them the jobs though, not the certificate. It's a correlation, but it's not causative. If someone employs technical staff based on their certificates as a key factor, they are a bad employer.
 
Old 12-13-2012, 09:07 AM   #30
llmi187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acid_kewpie View Post
Well I'd suggest that whilst that what these sites say, the logic is backwards. More skilled people are more likely to already hold higher level certificates. it's still their knowledge and experience that gets them the jobs though, not the certificate. It's a correlation, but it's not causative. If someone employs technical staff based on their certificates as a key factor, they are a bad employer.

Hello!Acid Kewpie

How about me,I can't apply company although I can install and configuration and I know everything without certificate (IBM,Oracle,Juniper,Cisco,hp-ux,Blackberry,Red Hat,Suse,Apple,Microsoft etc.,).They interview me many question and I can answer their question, company they didn't believe my answer.You know our country are very poor in IT so they think I am liar.
 
  


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