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Old 05-16-2005, 08:00 AM   #16
mugendai
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Quote:
Originally posted by pepik
So if they are included in the "download" version, the download version is no longer open source. That's against the GPL.
I dun think thats quite right. You can include non GPLed software in a package that includes GPLed software.
Infact, I'm pretty sure GPLed software can contain close source libraries as part of the compilation proccess, so long as any code that was at any point under the GPL remains available as source code.

I think there is a requirement that any package released under the GPL, must have source code avail that can be compiled without the use of any commercial libraries, but that closed source, freeware libraries are fine.

Dun quote me on this.. I haven't brushed up on my GPL in a while.. heh.

Though this does beg the question, is any part of the downloadable Mandriva distro, not under the GPL. If so, then it is not a GPL distro/package anyway.

Anyway, with the previous posts, I think all I've been getting at.. is.. that its a sad state when the distro can't even come with all the stuff neccisary to make it go, and getting that stuff(graphics drivers, etc) working envolves some very complex work(especially when you talk about new users trying it)
I mean that would be one thing if you were trying to do something spectacular, but.. installing a driver for your video card? That just should NOT be anywhere the trouble it is.
 
Old 05-16-2005, 08:07 AM   #17
Lee Barker
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Mandriva vs. Redhat

I am debating which version of Linux to put on my new PC. I have been using Redhat 8.0 but recently picked up a copy of Linux Forum which has the Mandriva 2005 Limited Edition.

PC World are selling the latest Novel offering for a heafty price (for me anyway). Which version is best? And why can I get a magazine version for 6 as opposed to 200 plus? Seems odd to me.

Cheers.
 
Old 05-16-2005, 10:01 AM   #18
jeremy
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I haven't installed a new version of Windows in quite some time - does it now come preinstalled with Flash and Java?

--jeremy
 
Old 05-16-2005, 03:45 PM   #19
Lee Barker
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Unhappy mandriva

I have installed Mandriva. It looks pretty good graphically.

However....... they appear to have forgotten to add the shutdown option. How on earth do I shut my machine down? I did power off manually, but then got the "unclean shutdown" message upon restarting.

Let's be honest, they've forgotten to add the shutdown option. What a bunch of walleys!!!!!
 
Old 05-16-2005, 03:57 PM   #20
Maxei
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Quote:
But my lord, if I tried that on Linux, "yea click that link, save to your desktop, ookay now read through the documentation, mmhmm do you have xfree86 or X.Org?, which Kernal are you running? Ookay open a console, and su then your password, now ls to your desktop, ookay sh some-really-annoyingly-long-driver-name-12-5-2005-3-45-6789, now we need to edit a conf file so open up your XF86Conf or -4 file by running.. etc..."
Please , dont exagerate. You are bulling Linux in this aspect. That kind of problem is when you are trying to install something not yet available with your distro CD. For example, With Mandrake 10.1 Community, the DVD contains hundreds of RPM packages. Actually, most of the useful and most popular software is bundled as RPM packages that are even easier to install than programs in Windows MS. In Mandrake, just click open the Install packages application, select the one you want and click install. That's it. No need to do anything like the stuff you described.

Of course, it depends on the availability of the package. Eventually, with time, those programs will become also available as RPM packages. But Mandrake 10.1 comes with most useful software and I have not found any dependency hell so far.

Maxei
 
Old 05-16-2005, 05:18 PM   #21
mugendai
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maxei
[B]Please , dont exagerate. You are bulling Linux in this aspect. That kind of problem is when you are trying to install something not yet available with your distro CD.
I'm not exagerating. I don't mean to imply that installation of useful applications is in any way difficult under Linux. By far, Linux distros tend to come prepackaged with what under windows would be several thousands of dollars of software. And the installation proccess for this software is exceedingly simple.

What I'm saying is that when it comes down to it, what does it matter of OpenOffice.org comes preinstalled(gawd I love OOo), if your graphics driver doesn't work? I suppose the base graphics support provided should be enough for office work. But often I end up with all kinds of graphics glitches unless the proper driver is installed, and certainly no 3D support without the proper driver. I was also plagued by issues trying to get wireless working under my laptop(I posted how I got it worked out on the forum elsewhere), and have never gotten my printer(I'm gunna get a new one that Linux supports) working(and I've had it for 3 years now).

It's nice to have super easy to install software, but it becomes a moot point, when getting the hardware up and running involves bending over backwards, especially when its hardware as essentialy as your video card.
 
Old 05-17-2005, 04:40 PM   #22
Maxei
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Quote:
what does it matter of OpenOffice.org comes preinstalled(gawd I love OOo), if your graphics driver doesn't work?
So, we are now actually seeing that software installation problems you were talking about has nothing to do with your graphics driver problem. You should be careful not to confuse the people.

Now, concerning graphics card support, I have my Nvidia card installed, and I got installed the drivers from the company. Yes, proprietary software. So there is indeed hardware support for Linux. Yet you are unlucky for choosing to buy hardware tfrom manufacturers who dont support Linux. It is not Linux fault. How many times this has to be repeated! Until recently, would you buy a winmodem knowing that there will never be support in Linux? That is your choice. The hardware manufacturers have done their choice too (e.g. support or ignore Linux).

Remember, there are two kinds of hardware: supported and not supported. If you plan to use Linux, make your choice wisely.
 
Old 05-17-2005, 05:08 PM   #23
bbradley
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Goodbye Duckie

I tried Mandrake 10.0, shrink wrapped box. It was the Windows ME of Linux. You can't return maldesigned software, and the Federal Trade Commission won't get into it.
I threw the thing in the trash. I will never buy another Mandrake product again--so help me Linus Torvalds.
There must be "consequences" or the software vendors will just put out one inexcusably defective distribution after another.
 
Old 05-17-2005, 06:16 PM   #24
floppywhopper
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Quote
I haven't installed a new version of Windows in quite some time - does it now come preinstalled with Flash and Java?

I'm not familiar ( thankfully ) with win xp but I still use win 98 se and that does come with Java and flash etc pre-installed albeit rather early versions so that the installer is obliged to update these packages.

And personally speaking I dont have a problem with that as when I install something I just want it to work "out of the box" without having to spend hours tweaking things.And I admit that when I set up a dual boot I'll spend more time setting up windows than mandrake, mostly because everything with mandrake is on 4 CDs ( including tux racer and powermanga LOL ), which suits me fine.

I guess to compare different distros, I recently installed Suse 9.2 from a magazine cover disk ( dvd ) and it had Java and flash set up by default in konqueror and that was brilliant. ( not unfortunately in firefox and mozilla, but thats another story ). The point here is, I have dual booted this machine and the windows install has given me nothing but grief to the point where I'm think - "stuff it, I'll ditch windows and just have suse" - because its only used for the internet and playing super tux ( suse doesnt have as many games as mandrake ). So why cant Mandriva just release their download editions with Java, flash, etc installed so that everything "just works".

Most home users I know simply use their computers for the Internet, homework and a few games, and couldnt give a hoot whether it was windows or ??? like me they just want the thing to work with no hassles, and mandrake like suse and one or two other distro come soooooo close.

Again thanks to Mandriva / Mandrake for a great distro
floppy
 
Old 05-17-2005, 09:41 PM   #25
Turjan
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I found the answer to the question "Is Linux ready for the home desktop?" quite interesting, and I agree with the clear "No!" that has been given in the interview.

Just to make it clear where I come from: I'm using Linux because I have to. A minor part of my work is heavily depending on programs that have originally been developed for Unix and that have, nowadays, found their way to a Linux environment. I'm usually happy if the programs run and I don't have to deal with the operating system more than absolutely necessary. I installed three copies of Mandrake Linux 9.2 on three Windows machines for dual boot use, and the installer worked quite neatly. It wasn't perfect, as I had to fiddle with mouse, sound and network problems, but it's not that much to complain about. During operation, the systems are working okay; they have more problems than the Windows setups, but they do their work, and I'm fine with it.

If I just look at a normal home user, who doesn't want to cope with the technical side of his/her computer more than absolutely necessary, the equation looks quite different. I don't think the average user is capable of dealing with the mouse, sound or network problems that I met during the installation process; they expect to press one key, or none at all, and the installation should yield a perfectly working system. Installation of new programs should work without having to think. Of course, the most important point, program X (insert favorite game or whatever) should run on the machine. Realistically, Linux cannot fulfill such expectations.

Even the price point is not such a big dealbreaker as it is usually broadcasted, even in this thread. Those people talking about 'thousands of dollars' that the typical Windows user has to shell out for his software tend to forget that the Mozillas, Openoffices or Gimps of this world are no Linux-only programs. I have already built Windows systems where Windows was the only piece of software that had to be paid for. And the last point only sort of; Windows already came with the machine.

It's only fair when Gael Duval makes this point very clear in his interview: Linux isn't meant for the casual home user. The price politics for Mandriva Linux is set accordingly. A home user who actually needs a comfortable installer has to buy a relatively expensive retail version of the OS or buy a relatively expensive club membership. The download versions are only accessible for computer geeks: an installer that doesn't include graphics drivers excludes the normal home user quite effectively from taking advantage of that free offer. On the other hand, it's a great offer for a small company or a university department (although the latter usually get their Microsoft stuff almost for free).

Don't see these remarks as any kind of atack on Linux or Mandriva. Mandriva is a company, and the people working there have to live on something. I don't see it as a crime if you want to be able to eat as a result of your work . I just want to agree with Gael Duval regarding his assessment of the target audience of Linux in the current computer software market.
 
Old 05-18-2005, 11:06 AM   #26
mugendai
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maxei
[B]So, we are now actually seeing that software installation problems you were talking about has nothing to do with your graphics driver problem. You should be careful not to confuse the people.
What? No!.. The software installation problem I am having is WITH the installation of the software(driver) for my video card. Thats what I'm on about.

Quote:
Now, concerning graphics card support, I have my Nvidia card installed, and I got installed the drivers from the company. Yes, proprietary software. So there is indeed hardware support for Linux. Yet you are unlucky for choosing to buy hardware tfrom manufacturers who dont support Linux
I have an NVidia in my Desktop, and ATI in my laptop. Both companies make drivers for the hardware, it's just soo difficult to install, I'm saying it isn't reasonable for the average home user.

And I'm also saying it IS Linux's fault that these companies don't well support, or support at all hardware under Linux. It is far too difficult to do, due to poorly written, or poorly standardized driver support. In windows a graphics driver envolves adding a few dll's, and registering them properly with the OS, and then the OS loads those drivers.
In Linux, it envolves loading a complete new xServ... thats just too much. Instead, the xServ should load libraries to allow appropriate interface with the graphics card. It should be a standardized interface thats easy to write for and support, and allows for easy installation of the driver.

It's not reasonable to expect hardware manufactuers to support a system so difficult to.. well.. support.

The Nintendo64 didn't get a very good number of games written for it, especially not some of the ones that were real popular, this wasn't due to lack of hardware capabilaties, this was due to a poorly written SDK and API. It was too difficult to write for the N64, and so the companies didn't. When you write a system, you have to make it as easily extensible as possible if you want lots of companies to take the time to write for that system, thats all there is to it.

Linux needs a nice unified standardized driver architecture, that is carefully thought out and discussed and done in an open way, and well used throghout all distros, IF they want hardware manufacturers to support Linux.

I'm not saying all this as a "Linux sucks" or something like that, I love Linux, I love the idea behind open source. I just want to see Linux reach it's potential, and the first step in doing that, is to first address it's issues. I'm not saying, don't use Linux because of this stuff, I'm saying, if you know enough about Linux, and or have the power to act on this stuff, then please take what I'm saying into consideration, and please see if you can do something about it. Maybe someday I'll have spent enough time in Linux to understand it well enough to help with its develpment myself, but until then, I can be but a meager critic, and suggester.

Again, I am in no way a Linux expert, and may be wrong in all that I'm saying, I could just be misunderstanding things, but, this is how it seems to me.
 
Old 05-19-2005, 04:07 AM   #27
JZL240I-U
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turjan ...I installed three copies of Mandrake Linux 9.2 on three Windows machines for dual boot use, and the installer worked quite neatly. It wasn't perfect, as I had to fiddle with mouse, sound and network problems, but it's not that much to complain about. During operation, the systems are working okay; they have more problems than the Windows setups, but they do their work, and I'm fine with it...
Thus you are comparing apples to pears . What do you think you would have to fiddle with, when you wanted to install Windows on a pre-installed Linux machine? In comparison you'd go down in flames .

So, if you compare, do so on an eqal basis and you'll find, that the systems in real life simply don't start from the same preconditions.

Last edited by JZL240I-U; 05-19-2005 at 04:09 AM.
 
Old 05-20-2005, 01:43 AM   #28
mugendai
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JZL240I-U
What do you think you would have to fiddle with, when you wanted to install Windows on a pre-installed Linux machine? In comparison you'd go down in flames . /QUOTE]

Piffle.. Install windows, on the Linux box, and I bet the mouse works, possibly the network, that's iffy, and same with sound iffy. Install the drivers, and its prolly good to go. And I'll bet there was no skrewing around with config files to get it going in Windows. The hardware is likely well supported, while in Linux, it is likely less supported.

I guess you could say it's comparing Apples to Pears, cause you can't really put Linux and Windows in the same class, in any other since that them both being OSes... But doubtful that there would be any fiddling needed to get the hardware running in windows.
 
Old 05-20-2005, 05:42 AM   #29
JZL240I-U
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Quote:
Originally posted by mugendai ... Install windows, on the Linux box, and I bet the mouse works, possibly the network, that's iffy, and same with sound iffy.
No, it won't. I have onboard sound and its by no means a forgone conclusion, that I can get a XP-driver for my rather old mainboard.

Quote:
Originally posted by mugendai Install the drivers, and its prolly good to go.
IF and only if you have those drivers at hand -- else you google the net and hope for the best.

Quote:
Originally posted by mugendai And I'll bet there was no skrewing around with config files to get it going in Windows.
This makes it abundantly clear, that you have never done it nor even dealt with it in theory. Windows overwrites the MBR, since it is not flexible enough to work along other OSes from installation on (e.g. SuSE includes automatically any preinstalled OSes in its boot menu, and does so since many years now). Installing Windows second (or later) you have to edit the boot.ini and better know what you do and how to do it to get your erstwhile perfectly working OSes back to life via the Windows boot menu.

Windows needs a primary partition, the older flavours the first primary parition, or else... What do you do if those are not available? Linux doesn't care where it is installed.

Quote:
Originally posted by mugendai The hardware is likely well supported, while in Linux, it is likely less supported.
Dunno, what distribution you came to grief with. SuSE or Knoppix detect and support most things and XP is by no means complete in this respect.

Quote:
Originally posted by mugendai ... you can't really put Linux and Windows in the same class, in any other since that them both being OSes...
Well, here we agree -- but for different reasons .

Quote:
Originally posted by mugendai ... But doubtful that there would be any fiddling needed to get the hardware running in windows.
Come off of it, will you? You'll have to install your printer settings, as well as the necessary networking defaults ... there is really not that much difference -- except in the mindset of the user.

Last edited by JZL240I-U; 05-20-2005 at 05:51 AM.
 
Old 05-20-2005, 06:41 AM   #30
mugendai
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Quote:
Originally posted by JZL240I-U
its by no means a forgone conclusion, that I can get a XP-driver for my rather old mainboard.
If you have an old mobo then XP likely included the driver, if not, you can likely get it, it's not that hard. I have had no problems finding drivers for onboard sound for XP. It's one thing to have problems finding drivers for some ancient card, but I've never had problems finding it for onboard sound.

Quote:
and only if you have those drivers at hand -- else you google the net and hope for the best.
I've never failed to find a driver

Quote:
you have never done it nor even dealt with it in theory.
Oookay first off I think I made it pretty clear I'm refering to getting the hardware going, not setting up the dual boot.
Secondly, last I checked, since XP, you can install into a pre-existing system, windows or not, and Windows will automatically set up a dual boot, with a "Boot to previous operating system" option. Mind you, I haven't installed windows after Linux, in quite some time, I always install Linux after windows, specifically because I want to use a linux boot loader. But even if I had installed Linux and then Windows and it didnt setup the previous OS option, and I didn't wanna monkey with ini files, I can do that, via Acronis Disk Director Suite(or other software, this is just my preference). No INI monkeying, very easy to setup and install.
Anyway it goes, it's not what I was talking about. And yes it is more trouble to setup Windows on a Linux box, than Linux on a Windows box. But there is an assumption that if you are running Linux, and adding Windows to it, that you know what you are doing enough to deal with these simple situations.

Quote:
Dunno, what distribution you came to grief with. SuSE or Knoppix detect and support most things and XP is by no means complete in this respect.
See my spiel on graphics drivers, and wireless hardware, maybe throw some printing in there too. Usually coming from Mandrake(err Mandriva now).. not had much time to fool around with many distros, mostly because of tiny bandwidth. But I'll give you an example from my latest try on my new Laptop. The Wireless was not fun to get working, and took me days to get straight, and I had to use ndiswrapper with the windows driver to make it work, and had to rewrite some scripts to handle things how I wanted. I still haven't gotten the graphics driver working. I can't suspend or hibernate or anything properly. And there doesn't seem to be any good support for the power saving features on my AMD64 proc..
While in Windows.. I installed windows.. installed the graphics driver, installed the wireless driver... configured the wireless driver, installed the included software(downloaded latest versions of course) and had it all running within a couple of hours, instead of failing to get it all up and going after a week, and taking days to get the wireless straight.

It's because lack of support from hardware manufacturers, due to a not at all well written, or possibly non existent driver arcitecture and standard.

Quote:
Well, here we agree -- but for different reasons .
Again, don't assume I'm dissing Linux, I'm pointing out faults that I want to see corrected, cause I HATE windows, and LOVE the idea behind Linux

Quote:
Come off of it, will you? You'll have to install your printer settings, as well as the necessary networking defaults ...
Windows - Wins Hardware support, maybe not preconfigured with the OS, but easily available and installable. Majority will have all hardware working properly within a few hours of OS installation. Looses for being commercial, and corrupt, and evil, and unsecure, and invasive, and controlling, and eXpensive, and etc, and just down right ishy...

Linux - Wins the good heart merit badge, and the preconfigured software game(As in bam, all that office software you need, most the software you want, installed before the hardware is even ready). Looses the hardware support category, and ease of installation game. May result in failure to get all hardware up and running, which can result in making all that pre-configured software useless.

Look all I'm saying is, this hardware support thing CAN be fixed. Develop for the hardware manufacturers intrests, and they will come. Say, for example, a unified arcitecture that would allow development of one driver that would work across all OS, with ease of installation and support. Manufacturers would hopefully adopt use of this, and result in excellent HW support in Linux, resulting in more SW manufacturers being willing to develop things like games for the OS. Basically "If you make it easier for the manufacturers in Linux, than it is in Windows, they will come."
 
  


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