Finally someone with the speaking skills to get across what I tried to say. I totally agree with mattman. I'm only sorry that I am unable to fund gnu projects with my current income. I have been able to help people see what linux is at my old high school. My personal view of linux at this moment is that linux is good for being server's and turning those "throw away" computer's that were replaced in the current upgrade into router's and bridge's <FreeSCO is cool!> Windows is for the end users. Thank you for settling this mattman.

I absolutely have to agree with mattman. In my last post i may have come off as a little more anti-linux and pro-windows than i originally intended to. What i just want to get accross is that when i first started into linux, it was absolutely impossible to do anything. But the worst part of it was the inability to find help. It is absolutely heartbraking when you get your shiny new OS, and you can't do a thing with it. I mean you can only play with the gimp and type in open office for so long untill you get bored. And solving problems setting up my sound was extremely difficult. Untill i found this site that is. This site is truly an awsome site for the newb. I doubt you'd be able to find anything near this extensive for windows users. We all just need a little understanding for newbs and windowers, and give them a helping hand instead of getting up in there face when the say 'windows is so much better because i can blablablabla, so easy' and then jump up and start the whole 'Linux isn't for idiots/You have to be willing to work hard/Linux is more secure, stable, faster, better, stronger, smarter, better tasting'. Everyone just needs to reach out and help the uninitiaded, to help make linux seem less intimidating, and then no monopolising megacorp can hold us back.

Penguins are less brittle than windows

this seems to have become the ultimate "win vs lin" thread, so i guess i will post accordingly.

<<To the "pro windows" people:

1) If you choose to venture into the linux world, you must leave certain assumptions at the door.

2) Linux programs are not designed to be user friendly. Linux is not, and never will be windows. >>

The fact is that there are several distros that are designed to be 'user friendly' to the point where your silver haired non tech granny can use them out of the box. Two that come to mind are Elx Linux and Xandros Linux.

The face of the Linux user base is changing. Many of the newer users are not technically competent or curious. They want a simple interface that is easy to use and don't really want to get under the hood. They just want it to work. Linux has reached that point. The problem is still, as it has always been, the lack of familiar software(quicken, tax act, act.)to run in windows. I know that there are Linux equivalents for many of these, but people don't want to have to reinvent or relearn the wheel. I believe that as the Linux base grows developers will see that it is profitable to port their apps to Linux. I have used Linux since 1998, and if it continues to progress on the desktop at the same rate in the future as it has since 1998, we have some real treats waiting for us just down the road.

i definately see where you are coming from. even from what i have seen over the last year and a half is these lightyear leaps forward gui wise. however:

the popularity of linux applications has very little to do with marketing, nothing to do with traditional marketing.

there will alwas be people improving GUIs, but that will never be the focus.

those two things alone, mean linux will never become windows. if those change, quite honestly i will stop using linux, as it will have very little appeal to me. you average user is happy with a nice gui, even happier when the app doesnt crash every half hour, and damn well overjoyed when there is a ton of cool functionality. the mentality of "I dont care how it looks, as long as it does its job well" is totally and completely incompatible with the windows attitude of "The primary focus must be short learning curves and good looking frontends, to not frustrate our non-technical users" I would say lindows is the closest to windows you could get. but it still isnt windows.

I have to say this. If new people can't learn Linux as we did, I personally don't want them. We all made it this far, didn't we? Do we *really* want the crowd of people who can barely double click on an Internet Explorer icon? Do we really want the kind of person who would put a floppy in backwards or a CD in upside down?

that is the thing. in windows or mac, you pay for the ability to use a computer, even if you have no knowledge. linux demands knowledge. that is yet another thing i would never want to see changed.

wow.... a lot of posts on here....


-AquamaN

*lol* That's a good point. It seems like there are more and more people like that - maybe they've heard about 'new, improved, easy to install Linux' and assume they can do it without knowing anything. (I admit I've got my blind spots of sheer idiocy myself, as well as places that at least need work but at least I know which end is up.) Flipside, though - I never installed Slack 1.0 and probably couldn't have. (Then again, I did get Core to boot.) And then I'd have gone to a list and gotten flamed and rtfm'ed and kept using DOS or Windows, maybe. I mean, anybody who's started using Linux in the past few years, vs. the first few years, has it 'easy', relatively speaking. Real old-timers could apply the same logic to me and maybe you.

Still - sum total - I think that's a good point that Linux should require at least some kind of minimum proficiency. I do like that.

<<I have to say this. If new people can't learn Linux as we did, I personally don't want them. We all made it this far, didn't we? Do we *really* want the crowd of people who can barely double click on an Internet Explorer icon? Do we really want the kind of person who would put a floppy in backwards or a CD in upside down?>>

Yes, we do. Or do you want linux to be the exclusive domain of the technically competent? You know, a marginalized OS such as Mac OSX, not mainstream, not supported by software developers, always a step or 2 or 3 behind mainstream OS? Well, is that what you really want? Bear in mine that none of this takes anything away from Linux's functionality, nor does it preclude in any way your ability to write, modify, and/or edit scripts and/or config/setup files. How are you harmed by the development which I desire? If you are not harmed, why are you resistant to Linux becoming user friendly enough to attract those users who may not be as technically competent as yourself?

I think a nice 'Welcome to Linux' screen and tour, explaining the file system and how to do basic things like play music, type docs, and just an overal basic intro would really help new linux users get accustomed to their new OS and keep them from abandoning, by giving them a little glimpse of all the cool things they can do.

<< Open-source programmers don't program for money. They program for personal reasons, which may include the feeling of accomplishment, the admiration of their peers, and so on. >>

As a typical 'dumb-ass' windows user who uses Linux at home and sees the worth and potential value of Linux in my business, I would just as well see developers who are in it for the 'money' who will port the apps which I am required to use by government regs an my industry's standards to Linux. The fact that they gain personal satisfaction or the admiration of their peers doesn't factor in for me. I don't believe that one has to choose between the cathedral and the bazaar. The best decisions for a company to make in deciding to use Linux has to be a marriage of both concepts.
Get what you can from the bazaar and fill in the gaps from the cathedral.

<<the mentality of "I dont care how it looks, as long as it does its job well" is totally and completely incompatible with the windows attitude of "The primary focus must be short learning curves and good looking front ends, to not frustrate our non-technical users" I would say Lindows is the closest to Windows you could get. but it still isn't Windows.>>

Have you used Lindows? How about SOT, Elx, Lycoris, or Xandros? How would you rate them against each other? How would you rate them against Windows XP?

Well, to be blunt, your 'government regs an my industry's standards' don't factor in for them. But, yeah, mix and match all you want. But porting apps is outside the strictly Linux zone. Go yell at those companies to get porting.

-- That wasn't pointed at me but - no. No, I have not used any of those.

ok, first off, dont stop reading raymonds papers at the cathedral and the bazaar. take a look at the magical cauldron. There is no reason for most commercial developement models not to use some aspects of opensource developement. It is when people get it through there heads that no matter how it looks, open source software is not analogeous to crap, that microsoft will be in trouble. in fact, open source software tends to be higher quality then commercial, regardless of the design of the GUI

I`ll have to say this:
I can only think of one bad consequence in accepting *very* average windoz users... Linux would have to become a little bit like windows; everything would have to be done via a GUI interface!
Personally I prefer editing scripts, cuz I`ve always been used to doing it this way, so I do it faster than using a GUI to do it!
If that ever happens, I`ll just stop using linux... and start using Freebsd(or another *bsd)...

Anyways, why do we need those users for? They don`t need linux, and linux doesn`t seem to need them?
I think we should keep the linux community into shape...
I`m not saying we shouldn`t accept newbies, I`m saying we should make sure they don`t stay newbies forever; so one day they can in return help others!
Newbies that aren`t willing to become full-blown users should just go away, linux is not for them...

Another thing, there will always be flaming, because there will always be stupid newbies; but the flaming might make the user evolve into a good newbie...
Plain old flaming is useless(`f*ck you, RTFM or STFW`), the flamming I`m talking about is this: "Can`t you just RTFM, like I did and everyone before me! Are you that stupid? The manual is at ghjhk.com, also make a search on "How to ask smart questions""
By stupid newbie, I mean someone that thinks we`re here to do everything for them, that we can just guess the solution of their problems("My video card doesn`t work, can you fix it")...
On the other hand, good newbies know how to ask questions, and always try to fix things themselves.
Also, flamming makes a natural selection between capable(and willing) newbies, uncapable(and unwilling) newbies.