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Old 08-01-2007, 11:54 AM   #151
marietechie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alred
my impression is that this guideline of "no root" and "no admin" usages of systems is more suitable for and usually suggested by experienced computer people ...
.
That could be because the experienced people know how easy it is to screw up your system by running root.

I am a newbie who is very familiar with Windows. I know how easy it is to get to system files under Windows and what damage users & viruses can do to those files because they have access all the time.

I don't mind accessing root as needed. I just don't want to be running root all the time. After all, why do we set up guest accounts? (So people don't ruin our files, right?)
 
Old 08-04-2007, 08:08 PM   #152
The_Dude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket357
First:

man pages...arguably the best documentation available.
um, no.

There are *some* man pages that can hack it, most do not. Have you seen the man pages for logwatch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket357
Second:

Your distro's site. I don't know about yours, but the Gentoo project has *killer* documentation. Virtually anything I could dream up to do with a Linux machine is covered by the Gentoo documentation, wiki, and forums.
OTAY! If the man pages are so great, then why are there so many of the same types of posts in Gentoo forums? How about here? No, Linux has marginal documentation at best and sucky to misleading docs on the average. In the linux world, the only site that I have seen that even approaches what I would call good docs is Red Hat's. As for the original posters questions, why Linux over Windows? For network stuff (ie name servers, e-mail servers/relays, webservers, etc), I select Solaris, OpenBSD or GNU/Linux. For CIFS, I select Windows. In my shop, Linux on the desktop rates as a personal foul/unlike-sportmans-ship -- 15 yard penalty.

Last edited by The_Dude; 08-05-2007 at 02:06 AM.
 
Old 08-05-2007, 02:51 AM   #153
rocket357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
um, no.

There are *some* man pages that can hack it, most do not. Have you seen the man pages for logwatch?
Haven't seen the man pages for logwatch...so I can't comment there. But I do find it interesting that out of my entire time using Linux (7-ish years now), I've solved all but ONE problem via man pages/distro documentation. For the single problem I couldn't solve, see:

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...d.php?t=545969

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
OTAY! If the man pages are so great, then why are there so many of the same types of posts in Gentoo forums? How about here?
I guess some people don't "get" man pages and need other's assistance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
No, Linux has marginal documentation at best and sucky to misleading docs on the average. In the linux world, the only site that I have seen that even approaches what I would call good docs is Red Hat's.
You make this statement after quoting Gentoo's forum? Have you seen the Gentoo documentation? Please tell me what sucks so terribly about:

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/quick-samba-howto.xml

Please note that this doc is just an example. If you want to browse the others, please see:

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
As for the original posters questions, why Linux over Windows? For network stuff (ie name servers, e-mail servers/relays, webservers, etc), I select Solaris, OpenBSD or GNU/Linux.
You select OpenBSD as one of your favored OS's, and yet you dislike man pages? Could you explain please? If not for the man pages in OpenBSD, how would you go about solving problems? By posting questions that could be answered by reading a man page? I realize your claim leans towards GNU/Linux man pages, so don't take this as an arguing point...I'm just asking. Do you use man pages on OpenBSD to solve your problems?

And I agree completely about OpenBSD being a solid solution for networking, particularly with building firewall appliances but not restricted to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
For CIFS, I select Windows. In my shop, Linux on the desktop rates as a personal foul/unlike-sportmans-ship -- 15 yard penalty.
Unsportsmanlike conduct? =)
 
Old 08-06-2007, 11:34 PM   #154
The_Dude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket357
Haven't seen the man pages for logwatch...so I can't comment there. But I do find it interesting that out of my entire time using Linux (7-ish years now), I've solved all but ONE problem via man pages/distro documentation. For the single problem I couldn't solve, see:
Not wanting to sound sarcastic, but did it ever occur you that maybe you are more likely to forgive developer cockups and bad docs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket357
I guess some people don't "get" man pages and need other's assistance?
Bingo! If the man page docs were so great, there would not be a need for linuxquestions.org, forums.gentoo.org. Yes, I have seen gentoo docs. For people that like tinkering with their computers, their docs are great, after all that is Gentoo's captive audience. For the average Jane, or Joe Six Pack, linux docs suck. They are not going to endure the torture of man pages or outdated and somewhat misleading webpages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket357
You select OpenBSD as one of your favored OS's, and yet you dislike man pages?
Yes. Open BSD is a O/S that I like to use for certain things. By no stretch of the imagination can Open BSD be described a distribution that is "user friendly". It is a good disti to use if you know what you are doing, but if you do not know what you are doing, poking your eyes would be a far more pleasant experience that using OpenBSD. As for man pages in OpenBSD, I have used them from time to time. It is indeed a necessity, however, man pages are not aimed a novice users, man pages are aimed at folks who know what they are doing. They are akin to sendmail documentation. Sendmail docs are great if you know sendmail, they are not so good if you are trying to learn it.

I want you to think for a minute about documentation. Documentation is a customer service issue. Good docs == improved customer experience. Improved customer experience == greater customer satisfaction. Greater customer satisfaction generates brand loyalty. Unless you got the greatest soup in New York city, you can not demand excellence from your customer.
 
Old 08-07-2007, 08:03 AM   #155
manlydan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
For the average Jane, or Joe Six Pack, linux docs suck. They are not going to endure the torture of man pages or outdated and somewhat misleading webpages.
Just out of curiosity, what OS does have good documentation by your standards?

Sure, there are a lot of projects in Linux that have poor documentation, but there are also a lot of projects that do have good documentation. And if I had to choose between Linux documentation and Windows documentation I would choose Linux hands down.

I have rarely, if ever, been able to solve a problem using Window's documentation, but I often solve problems using Linux documentation.
 
Old 08-07-2007, 12:06 PM   #156
alred
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i can still remember that i was so stupid to actually print out the whole win95 help/documentations and bind it up ... ^_^


.
 
Old 08-07-2007, 04:22 PM   #157
rocket357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
Not wanting to sound sarcastic, but did it ever occur you that maybe you are more likely to forgive developer cockups and bad docs?
Indeed. Developers are human beings, too, and as such they can/do make mistakes from time to time...but if I get a car for free from a friend, then discover that I need to put some work into it to get it working the way I want I certainly don't complain to my friend, especially if he was kind enough to include ANY kind of documentation (Owner's manual/Chilton's/etc...).


Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
Bingo! If the man page docs were so great, there would not be a need for linuxquestions.org, forums.gentoo.org. Yes, I have seen gentoo docs. For people that like tinkering with their computers, their docs are great, after all that is Gentoo's captive audience. For the average Jane, or Joe Six Pack, linux docs suck. They are not going to endure the torture of man pages or outdated and somewhat misleading webpages.
Point taken...forums such as this exist as a medium for questions to be asked and answered. But their existence does not mean the man pages are not "good" documentation. Again, if I had a friend give me a car and the documentation that came with it was in a language that I didn't understand, I wouldn't assume the documentation was faulty.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
Yes. Open BSD is a O/S that I like to use for certain things. By no stretch of the imagination can Open BSD be described a distribution that is "user friendly". It is a good disti to use if you know what you are doing, but if you do not know what you are doing, poking your eyes would be a far more pleasant experience that using OpenBSD.
I agree. OpenBSD is a wonderfully powerful OS (note: not to get technical, but OpenBSD is not a distro). It does take some know-how...but anything I've ever wanted to accomplish with OpenBSD I can accomplish with man pages, the project documentation, or Google. Yes, I've had to use Google on occasion to solve problems with OpenBSD...but again, that doesn't mean the man pages or OpenBSD documentation is broken, or faulty, or lacking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
As for man pages in OpenBSD, I have used them from time to time. It is indeed a necessity, however, man pages are not aimed a novice users, man pages are aimed at folks who know what they are doing. They are akin to sendmail documentation. Sendmail docs are great if you know sendmail, they are not so good if you are trying to learn it.
Point is, Linux is not Windows...it doesn't try to do the thinking for you. Man pages are a *technical* reference and should be viewed as such. If the forums are your preferred source of problem solving then use them...no one is telling you otherwise (I personally think that forums operate a bit too slow for me (not bashing any forum, especially not LQ.org!), so I work on solving the problem by myself...and the VAST majority of the time man pages give me the information I need to solve the problem whether I know the code by heart or not).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
I want you to think for a minute about documentation. Documentation is a customer service issue. Good docs == improved customer experience. Improved customer experience == greater customer satisfaction. Greater customer satisfaction generates brand loyalty. Unless you got the greatest soup in New York city, you can not demand excellence from your customer.
I read that as a slap to the face of all of the developers who have worked tirelessly and without pay to provide the "horrid" documentation and code you use...

Yes, I stated that man pages are arguably the best documentation available. I'm sorry if you've had less success with solving problems using the man pages than I (and many other Linux users) have had. As I stated before, if you prefer using forums to solve problems, then stick to using the forums. But don't say the man pages are faulty or not up to par because they don't spell it out in "Teach Yourself Sendmail in 2 hours" format.
 
Old 08-07-2007, 09:24 PM   #158
The_Dude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manlydan
Just out of curiosity, what OS does have good documentation by your standards?

Sure, there are a lot of projects in Linux that have poor documentation, but there are also a lot of projects that do have good documentation. And if I had to choose between Linux documentation and Windows documentation I would choose Linux hands down.

I have rarely, if ever, been able to solve a problem using Window's documentation, but I often solve problems using Linux documentation.
Sun Solaris has good documentation. Their website is quite detailed, and if you wish to purchase the docs, you will get very through ones. Red Hat has okay docs. I like their selinux docs, though I wish that they could be a little bit more detailed. My experience with Microsoft docs is a love and hate relationship. I have noticed that some MSFT docs are based on beta code. Once the project goes RC1 or gold, they never updated it. Very annoying.
 
Old 08-07-2007, 09:58 PM   #159
The_Dude
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket357
Indeed. Developers are human beings, too, and as such they can/do make mistakes from time to time...but if I get a car for free from a friend, then discover that I need to put some work into it to get it working the way I want I certainly don't complain to my friend, especially if he was kind enough to include ANY kind of documentation (Owner's manual/Chilton's/etc...).
If my friend gave me a car that I did not know how to work on, and lacked docs, I would take the car straight to the salvage yard. No sense in wasting my time on something broke.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket357
Point taken...forums such as this exist as a medium for questions to be asked and answered. But their existence does not mean the man pages are not "good" documentation.
If you want to keep denying it, that is fine. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket357
Again, if I had a friend give me a car and the documentation that came with it was in a language that I didn't understand, I wouldn't assume the documentation was faulty.
Like I said, you are more forgiving of dev cockups and bad docs. I am not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket357
Point is, Linux is not Windows...it doesn't try to do the thinking for you.
I see the elitism creeping in. Windows does not try to do the thinking for you. What Windows does do, is try to make it easy for a user to accomplish a task. If you want to delete all of c:\windows, the os will comply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket357
Man pages are a *technical* reference and should be viewed as such.
No arguement from me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket357
If the forums are your preferred source of problem solving then use them...no one is telling you otherwise
You must have me confused with someone else. I come to forums to *give* help 99% of the time. I do this for entertainment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket357
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
I want you to think for a minute about documentation. Documentation is a customer service issue. Good docs == improved customer experience. Improved customer experience == greater customer satisfaction. Greater customer satisfaction generates brand loyalty. Unless you got the greatest soup in New York city, you can not demand excellence from your customer.

I read that as a slap to the face of all of the developers who have worked tirelessly and without pay to provide the "horrid" documentation and code you use...
Oh, please. Should I break out the violin for you? Look, devs are paid by major corporations to "worked tirelessly" to create the code you use. Their companies then go on to profit from their toil. Nothing here out of the ordinary. Since everyone is getting paid, the least they could do is put out up-to-date, accurate, and thorough docs. Nothing too difficult. I done it before in the past.

Last edited by The_Dude; 08-07-2007 at 10:01 PM.
 
Old 08-08-2007, 04:30 AM   #160
SCerovec
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The facts:
1. Linux docs are lagging behind, as they allways had. The development pace is too high.
2. Windows help is useless unless You could solve the problem without it (proven over and over again), or it just says 'You can't do that'.
3. LDP's HOWTOS are from time when forums where less popular. Nowdays one gets howtos from threads, and no one packs solved problems to LDP's HOWTOS any more.
4. Linux online documentation covers mostly installation issues. Users are supposed to learn using things on they own. This might be improved.
5. Linux works better than Windows, provided one knows how to use it.
6. Learning how to use Linux is harder, jet more fruitfull, than to use Windows. This moreso, as experience grows.
 
Old 08-08-2007, 07:48 AM   #161
SlowCoder
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... This is become kind of a battle of wits between Rocket357 and The_Dude ... Kind of fun to read, really.

But I would like to interject ...

There definitely is a balance between software and the documentation that supports it. This can easily be seen in the Linux and Windows operating systems and the tools that are available for them.

For instance, Windows tries to be very user friendly. In being friendly, documentation is a priority, and functionality of the OS, in matters of its extensibility and capabilities (options the user has), suffers.

In Linux, programmers want to concentrate on their programs, making them the best they can be. Due to this, documentation is very terse, to the point and with no fluffiness, for the most-part. Therefore Linux is an excellent operating system, with excellent packages, but it takes darn near forever to learn its nuances unless you go to a 3rd party like LQ and ask questions.

I personally prefer terse documentation. I just want to know what my options are for a program, and not an entire story on how the program made its mark on the world.

Also, there are probably just as many, if not more, forums, blogs and various other support sites for Windows as there are for Linux. No matter how good documentation gets, the more functionality a program gets, the more confusing its documentation will be for a lot of people.

Anyway, interjection finished. This was sort of an A-B conversation, so I'm C'ing my way out.

Last edited by SlowCoder; 08-08-2007 at 07:49 AM.
 
Old 08-08-2007, 08:31 AM   #162
kaz2100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowCoder
For instance, Windows tries to be very user friendly. In being friendly, documentation is a priority, and functionality of the OS, in matters of its extensibility and capabilities (options the user has), suffers.
Incredible misunderstanding!

WiDoes tries to "look (fake) user friendly", and tries to conseal "user unfriendly and cheap manufacturer friendly"
In trying to look friendly, useless documentation and look nice interface (non-functional) are the highest priority.....

as it is....

Happy Penguins!
 
Old 08-08-2007, 10:58 AM   #163
rocket357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
If my friend gave me a car that I did not know how to work on, and lacked docs, I would take the car straight to the salvage yard. No sense in wasting my time on something broke.
That's like saying I'd toss my WinXP install because the default background wasn't to my liking and I couldn't figure out how to change it. Only difference is that people don't do that because *they paid for WinXP*.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
If you want to keep denying it, that is fine. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
I don't feel I'm denying anything, but I'll agree to disagree with you. Perhaps we should start a poll to see who has had "man page blues" and who has not. I'd be interested to see how that turned out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dude
Oh, please. Should I break out the violin for you? Look, devs are paid by major corporations to "worked tirelessly" to create the code you use. Their companies then go on to profit from their toil. Nothing here out of the ordinary. Since everyone is getting paid, the least they could do is put out up-to-date, accurate, and thorough docs. Nothing too difficult. I done it before in the past.
I'm sure there are projects out there that are paid...where big corporations are involved, money typically is leveraged to produce results...and if those projects that ARE paid are not producing documentation that is up to par, then yes, I see your complaint, and I agree that something should be done.

But does that mean the developers of conky or fluxbox or <pick a random project> are regulars in the "I get paid for open source software" bunch? No...and yet I still haven't had problems with the docs that come from projects like this.
 
Old 08-08-2007, 02:34 PM   #164
marietechie
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Arrow Man Pages in Linux

You inspired me.
Here's a new thread: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...79#post2852379
 
Old 08-08-2007, 02:50 PM   #165
rocket357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marietechie
You inspired me.
Here's a new thread: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...79#post2852379
Ehh, I would've started the poll myself, but I couldn't find the man page for it... =)

Silly lack of quality documentation!

Last edited by rocket357; 08-08-2007 at 02:52 PM.
 
  


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