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Old 02-15-2006, 11:20 PM   #16
sundialsvcs
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Java is ... a language designed by committee (worse than Ada!) ... and an academic committee to boot!

And every Java programmer I know of winds up cursing ... "which Java?!" There are dozens of implementations out there, not all of them exactly compatible with one another, in devilishly subtle and therefore nass-s-s-sty ways.

Ahh, Python.
 
Old 02-16-2006, 02:22 AM   #17
jonaskoelker
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Quote:
thats a horrible hack
no compiler should let you do that.
I disagree. I think every compiler should let you do that. Don't prevent the programmer from doing what needs to be done. Also, the argument the java compiler uses is not just opinionated, it's factually wrong: I don't `fall off' without returning, because I don't reach the end of the function.

But I have stated my opinion in clear and long enough terms, I want to know your opinion. Why should no compiler let me do that? Why is it a horrible hack?

Quote:
If it was up to me everyone would be programming in Pascal or Ada. Shouldn't take two lines of comments to explain one line of cryptic (C-like) code.
The lack of understandability is a property of the code, not of the language. I'm `read only' with respect to pascal and ada, but I see nothing in those languages preventing you from calling a function which adds two numbers `minus'. On the other hand, I see nothing inherent in C which prevents you from writing readable code (okay, it's possible that no string of C code is readable by you, but the language is certainly readable by a lot of other programmers).


Also, Envision and sundialscvs made some good points--just because it's forced on you in college doesn't mean it's used in the real world (C#, of all curses, is taking over the microsoft shops). And just because Sun says "write once, run anywhere" doesn't make it true. Facts is what determines the truth of statements about facts (which shouldn't be surprising).
 
Old 02-16-2006, 08:26 AM   #18
Mega Man X
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Java is a must at schools because you actually learn how to use OOP. The language is _designed_ for that, while most of the other languages _support_ OOP.

I've been just trying out Netbeans 5. Take a look into this quick flash demo to see the power of gui's with Java and Netbeans:

http://www.netbeans.org/files/docume...5/matisse.html

One can't deny it's awesome .

About the statement: "Don't prevent the programmer from doing what needs to be done.", I'm not quite sure if I agree with that. If the language helps you to keep a program less buggy and more robust, I'm all for it. A lot of C/C++ programs out there has mem leaks everywhere. That you won't see with Java, for example.

I also disagree with "real world" kind of thing. While python is cool (I've some experience with pygame), I doubt there're more jobs out there requiring python experience then Java. I even dare to say that there're less jobs oportunities for C then Java (C++ might be different though). If you program as hobby, then there's no harm on it though
 
Old 02-16-2006, 10:57 AM   #19
jonaskoelker
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Quote:
Java is a must at schools because you actually learn how to use OOP. The language is _designed_ for that, while most of the other languages _support_ OOP.
I think there's a breach in your logic: java lets you write OO programs. Python lets you write OO programs. C++ lets you write OO programs. One can learn OO just as well from any of the three languages.

Quote:
Take a look into this quick flash demo
Sorry, no can do: my flash player is not really working. I use it because it's free (as in freedom), and I wouldn't use a non-free one.

And GUIs? Puh-lease; unless it's firefox or xpdf, I don't need no stinking GUI :P (on a serious note, a lot can be done with curses-based interfaces--including nethack ).

Quote:
If the language helps you to keep a program less buggy and more robust, I'm all for it. A lot of C/C++ programs out there has mem leaks everywhere. That you won't see with Java, for example.
Well, if you have to structure your program in a way that doesn't `fit' the program because of a restriction in the language (and hence make the program less clear, and have at least a higher potential for bugs), that language is a bad choice, right?

And memory leaks can happen in java (as in any GC'ed language): keep adding objects to a collection while touching those objects until program completion.

Quote:
I doubt there're more jobs out there requiring python experience then Java.
True as that may be, that has nothing to do with the quality of the language designs in themselves--most often it's your PHB who decides what language to use, and he's been blinded by the Sun advertisement, and can't tell a good language from a bad one by definition.

Also, I want to have fun at whatever job I'm gonna get, so whether or not there's a lot of java jobs is irrelevant: I'm not going to have fun in those jobs, so that doesn't make java a more attractive language to me.

Last edited by jonaskoelker; 02-16-2006 at 10:59 AM.
 
Old 02-16-2006, 12:08 PM   #20
cotton
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I've found that people seem to always overlook the symptoms of these issues: that Java code 99% of the time runs horribly. People tend to quote benchmarks, but there's more to it than the speed of the JVM. Java emphasizing purity over practicality sometimes results in unnecessarily bulky code, like try blocks that will never in reality throw exceptions or the instantiation of object upon object upon object just to perform a simple task, like reading a line from a file. You often end up with difficult to read code that takes longer to run than is necessary.
 
Old 02-16-2006, 05:37 PM   #21
dukeinlondon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotton
I've found that people seem to always overlook the symptoms of these issues: that Java code 99% of the time runs horribly. People tend to quote benchmarks, but there's more to it than the speed of the JVM. Java emphasizing purity over practicality sometimes results in unnecessarily bulky code, like try blocks that will never in reality throw exceptions or the instantiation of object upon object upon object just to perform a simple task, like reading a line from a file. You often end up with difficult to read code that takes longer to run than is necessary.
That's the first insightful thing that I read about why Java would slower than say C++. But you have to remember what need it was trying to address, and has been incredibly successful at it : making very large application easier to maintain and safer.

I believe that has been a big problem on PC until recently but the adoption of the language in enterprise computing for very large scale application (that typically throw exceptions where you'd never have though it would ever) says a lot about how well it has worked.

And as a developper where I work commented when having to cater for a socket connection in a C++ component, the large standard Java std lib would have meant a couple of lines for this whereas C++ requires a lot more than that (although that was far from overwhelming him btw).

I am no developper but it is true that learning Java was not the most exciting thing in the world. Shame I didn't choose Python.
 
Old 04-25-2006, 06:01 AM   #22
bigearsbilly
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java is great, we use it extensively for XML stuff and ...
overnight.041203.log:Error: java.lang.Exception: java.lang.OutOfMemoryError

DOH!
not AGAIN!
 
Old 04-25-2006, 02:03 PM   #23
Jeebizz
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While I may not have nearly enough experience in programming as others on this thread, I would still agree about Java. The only programming languages that I have any experience in is, well... Java, and C++ and so not being able to comment on Perl, Python, etc, I still prefer C++ over Java. My main issue with Java, is not just what can be done with it, is it's speed, which is lacking, compared to C++. JIT compilers is faster than regular Java, but still doesn't match C++'s speed. To me C++ is more of a useful programming language, for *me* anyways, it all depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Java is boasted as being able to run on any platform without the need to recompile for said platform, hence by using JVM, but JVM has always been buggy, and just sucks a lot of resources anyways. Now, if you want to have some fun, learn X86 assembler
 
Old 04-25-2006, 02:27 PM   #24
stash1071
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This is an interesting discussion no doubt. I do admit the need to jump to the defense of perl even though this is really not the point of the thread. Allowing a statement modifier to work with one statment make things read more like english to me. If you want to do multiple statements its the same amount of work as doing it the old fashioned way. Being able to use things in the proper context (scalar vs list) allows you to do a lot of nifty things that become second nature if the right amount of time is spent getting understanding
 
Old 04-25-2006, 03:00 PM   #25
Michael_S
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jonaskoelker,
I can respect your decision to avoid Java due to licensing issues. But my own opinion differs on a few other items.

With regards to performance, man-hours are immensely more expensive than a better CPU. If (IF - I am not asserting that this is true, just raising a question) Java generally allows a 4 $60,000 Java software engineers to be more productive than 5 $60,000 C engineers, you can spend $60,000 on extra hardware for the Java group and that should easily offset the performance gap in most applications.

The freedom that C gives you cuts both ways. I don't have to worry about allocating correct size buffers, pointer errors, or memory leaks. I also don't have to worry that anyone else in my team will make those errors, and they don't have to worry that I will make them. That's a tremendous advantage. We need to test everything else that we write extensively, but that's one major headache we never need to worry about. Maybe I'm substantially more stupid than your average software engineer, but it took me years before I could consistently make big, non-trivial C programs that handled memory buffers and pointer arithmetic perfectly on the first pass.

When Java was designed, Object Orientation was "The Big Thing". I don't think that's a bad idea, especially for enterprise applications. I know they're tossed around as buzzwords a lot, but encapsulation (hiding/protecting data that people using the class don't need to see), inheritance (extending parent classes in children), and especially polymorphism (using child classes as arguments in functions that work on a parent class) are all really handy, and C doesn't have them. For small stuff, OO's often more pain than it's worth. But even then, there are many times a 50 line C application built as a quick fix to one problem finds itself continuously adopted and extended until it's an unrecognizable 1000 line mess two years later.

Last but not least, the standard functions in Java are incredibly handy. Want to manipulate the results of a query from the database? ResultSet and ResultSetMetaData work just fine. Need to strip from a List all of the items that are already contained in another list? List.removeAll() is right there. Adding good code comments to in-house apps is a pain, especially since the code itself is so verbose. But I have a copy of the javadoc for the regular Java API on my local machine, and a complete list of all class methods, parent class information, and related classes is just a few mouse clicks away.

I'm not saying Java is great. It has its flaws. I'm just favorably inclined towards it because it pays the bills.
I know Java, Perl, C, and C++ at the moment and I would like to learn Python, Ruby, or maybe Haskell or Scheme but by the time I'm done work I don't have the mental energy to read "Pull tab to open", much less a language text or tutorial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigearsbilly
overnight.041203.log:Error: java.lang.Exception: java.lang.OutOfMemoryError

DOH!
not AGAIN!
You probably already know this, but: The -X command line flag for java.exe and javaw.exe has options for changing the minimum and maximum heap size. Unless you're running a really huge application, the fastest solution is to increase the RAM on your server and then do java -Xmx300M (or 500M or 2048M or whatever) when you start your application.
 
Old 04-25-2006, 05:17 PM   #26
jonaskoelker
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Hi Michael.

I should warn you that I've been listening to lugradio (www.lugradio.org), so I do not pull my punches, which is why you need to pull my punches.

That being said, what you're saying is basically bollocks.

Quote:
With regards to performance, man-hours are immensely more expensive than a better CPU
Agreed.

However, if you're optimizing for man-hours, java loses to python. If you're optimizing CPU hours (which you sometimes are), java loses to C. Java never wins, so you can throw that argument out the window.

Quote:
The freedom that C gives you cuts both ways. I don't have to worry about allocating correct size buffers, pointer errors, or memory leaks. I also don't have to worry that anyone else in my team will make those errors, and they don't have to worry that I will make them. That's a tremendous advantage.
No, that's a tremendous advantage if you and and your colleagues are shit C programmers, or you don't use conservative garbage collectors, valgrind and the glibc memory analysis thingie (printing a load of stats on program termination).

Also, "The freedom that C gives you" is sort of broad. Java (not unlike pascal and ada) is a bondage-and-discipline language. Before anyone says no, yes it bloody well is! javac is hardcoded to run with -Werror, and its warnings are often wrong. For example, the following code is not allowed:

Code:
void quit() {
    System.exit();
}
The reason? missing return statement. Now that's completely wrong, completely fascist (return 0, 0.0 or null if nothing else and warn about it) and will cause code breakage every single time the control flow analysis improves (because some code will change its reachability, and then either be marked invalid as dead code or missing a return statement).

And don't even get me started about it trying to force object-orientation on you, in part by being complete shit at everything else besides procedural.

Quote:
We need to test everything else that we write extensively, but that's one major headache we never need to worry about. Maybe I'm substantially more stupid than your average software engineer, but it took me years before I could consistently make big, non-trivial C programs that handled memory buffers and pointer arithmetic perfectly on the first pass.
You're completely wrong, and here's why:
Code:
Result ProcessRequest(Request r) {
   Result = cache.get(r);
   if (Result == null) {
      Result = frob(r);
      cache.add(r, Result);
   }
   return Result;
   frobnicate(r);
}
Assuming this is the only appearance of cache, it and its elements can not be garbage collected before the program exits. What a shocker, I just created a memory leak in a java program! You're not safe, and you need to test for this.

And yes, it takes time to become skillful with C. So? You go to school for twenty years! That's plenty of time to learn it. Sure, the mean age at which people start programming might be as high as fourteen, but that still leaves ten years of training before you're out of the university. I just don't buy "C takes too long to learn" as any kind of argument.

Quote:
When Java was designed, Object Orientation was "The Big Thing". I don't think that's a bad idea, especially for enterprise applications.
What is an enterprise application?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WordNet (r) 2.0 (August 2003) wn
enterprise
n 1: a purposeful or industrious undertaking (especially one that
requires effort or boldness); "he had doubts about the
whole enterprise" [syn: {endeavor}, {endeavour}]
2: an organization created for business ventures; "a growing
enterprise must have a bold leader"
3: readiness to embark on bold new ventures [syn:
{enterprisingness}, {initiative}, {go-ahead}]
exactly zero definitions of the word enterprise has got anything to do with object orientation.

Please, clarify what an "enterprise application" is, and whether and why the following programs are or are not enterprise applications:

mutt, evolution, apache, iis, irssi, xchat, gaim, bitlbee, fluxbox, sawfish, metacity, openoffice.org, microsoft office, gnomeoffice, koffice, subversion, TeX and derivatives, gnuplot, the java runtime, the python runtime.

Now, explain without using examples to support your arguments why object-orientation (a) has anything to do with enterprise applications; and (b) why it's good for enterprise applications.

Quote:
<OO features> are handy and C doesn't have them.
Not true. GTK, which is purely C (not C++), is object oriented.

Quote:
For small stuff, OO's often more pain than it's worth. But even then, there are many times a 50 line C application built as a quick fix to one problem finds itself continuously adopted and extended until it's an unrecognizable 1000 line mess two years later.
There are many times java applications cause earthquakes.

This time I'm the one talking complete bollocks, but I do it to underline an important point: I'm not going to believe what you're saying without examples. In my experience, it's completely false.

Also, the words "quick fix" implies that bash, sed, awk and/or python is a good place to start.

Quote:
Last but not least, the standard functions in Java are incredibly handy. Want to manipulate the results of a query from the database? ResultSet and ResultSetMetaData work just fine. Need to strip from a List all of the items that are already contained in another list? List.removeAll() is right there.
In my experience, what you need is posix threads and sockets, plus the stlprot. Or it's a LAMP app, in which PHP compares favorably to java; python is completely on par with java. Want to get all the elements of list a at the indices in list b? map(a.__getitem__, b).

Quote:
I have a copy of the javadoc for the regular Java API on my local machine, and a complete list of all class methods, parent class information, and related classes is just a few mouse clicks away.
Yes, and I have man pages for C, and the help function for python. Your point being?

Quote:
I'm not saying Java is great. It has its flaws. I'm just favorably inclined towards it because it pays the bills.
If you were to start your own free (speech and beer) software project, what would affect your decision-making process?

Quote:
(how do deal with a java memory problem)
I think you missed the point completely, and that bigearsbilly meant that java is a bloody memory hog. If that is the case, you "solution" only makes the problem worse: you're allowing the program to consume more memory than it does already.

In conclusion your unconvincing arguments has--what a suprise--not convinced me. So I'm still right, you're wrong, and there's nothing you can do about it!

Regards,
Jonas
 
Old 04-26-2006, 04:23 AM   #27
bigearsbilly
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Quote:
I think you missed the point completely, and that bigearsbilly meant that java is a bloody memory hog. If that is the case, you "solution" only makes the problem worse: you're allowing the program to consume more memory than it does already.
Exactly!

We've got it ramped up to 2 Gig already. (TWO bloody Gig for god's sake! It's like bloody XP)
Not that what we do is rocket science.

perl never runs out of memory in my experience even when I slurp up
the same data as we are using for java.

I was using saxon and also ipedo java for Xquerying XML but now use perl and shell as it's 20 times faster and
*never* EVER blows up.
Maybe less elegant and unfashionable but It works.
 
Old 04-26-2006, 05:17 AM   #28
zytsef
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I'm not really a programmer (yet), but I know my way around java a bit and have taught myself some python. From an amateur's perspective I tend to agree with jonaskoelker. I've found myself having to try to bend java to my will through sheer brute force a few too many times. I don't think it's a particularly flexible language. On the other hand I do have a friend or two who really like the structured implementation you have to use in java and I can kind of see some of it's advantages. It may not be as easy to implement, usually, from a developer's standpoint as python, but everyone knows java and it's still fairly fast to develop in. Combined with portability, I'm sort of glad I can use it, but it's definitely not my language of choice.
 
Old 04-26-2006, 10:11 AM   #29
Michael_S
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonaskoelker
Hi Michael.

I should warn you that I've been listening to lugradio (www.lugradio.org), so I do not pull my punches, which is why you need to pull my punches.
I'm pretty thick skinned on internet forums. Just don't call me fat, and I'm good to go. So no worries.

Quote:
That being said, what you're saying is basically bollocks.
You can categorize people in any type of discussion in two groups. There are the type that aren't really discussing anything and just spout their own beliefs, and the type that are there to learn. I'm willing to learn.

Quote:
However, if you're optimizing for man-hours, java loses to python. If you're optimizing CPU hours (which you sometimes are), java loses to C. Java never wins, so you can throw that argument out the window.
I was optimizing in man-hours against C. I was not trying to argue that Java is a superior language, just that it's not a complete abomination.

Quote:
No, that's a tremendous advantage if you and and your colleagues are shit C programmers, or you don't use conservative garbage collectors, valgrind and the glibc memory analysis thingie (printing a load of stats on program termination).
I think me and my colleagues were shit C programmers at the job where we used C. The management attitude was "build it as fast as possible, fix all the non-critical bugs, ship it, and then release patches periodically". Our problem was probably part poor programmer skill, part corporate rush to market, part shoddy office development atmosphere/environment. There are well over 100,000 people around the US and Europe using thousands of lines of C and C++ software I wrote, and they're using it every day... and I didn't have a single code review in three years. [EDIT] The rules were simple. If it compiled and passed a very simple set of tests that were done by hand by a member of tech support, it went out to the customer ASAP. There were brilliant guys working at the company, but I never really got to learn from anyone. Maybe my picture should be next to the term 'codemonkey' in the dictionary.[/EDIT]

I suppose in an intelligently managed business or an open source project where the top suits aren't squeezing blood from stones to maximize profit, the available memory analysis tools, review processes, and proper training can make C just as viable as Java.

Quote:
You're completely wrong, and here's why:
Code:
Result ProcessRequest(Request r) {
   Result = cache.get(r);
   if (Result == null) {
      Result = frob(r);
      cache.add(r, Result);
   }
   return Result;
   frobnicate(r);
}

Assuming this is the only appearance of cache, it and its elements can not be garbage collected before the program exits. What a shocker, I just created a memory leak in a java program! You're not safe, and you need to test for this.
I'm not following the example. First, isn't the "frobnicate(r)" at the end disallowed because the code is unreachable? Second, isn't the cache nuked as soon as all references to Result are removed?

Quote:
And yes, it takes time to become skillful with C. So? You go to school for twenty years! That's plenty of time to learn it. Sure, the mean age at which people start programming might be as high as fourteen, but that still leaves ten years of training before you're out of the university. I just don't buy "C takes too long to learn" as any kind of argument.
I started programming at 18, in 1996. I didn't decide to get a computer science minor until my junior year of college, in 1998. Thanks to the brilliant planning of my college (and how could I question their judgement then, since I didn't know a damn thing about computing?) I had exactly once course in C before I finished my undergrad degree. (BS Math, CS minor.) Then I attended a useless graduate school for an MS in Software Engineering. Again, I didn't realize the program was useless until after I graduated, started working, and figured out that about 20 of my 60 total credits in computer science were a complete waste and another 20 were only useful at high level theory. So with a whopping one class in C and one in C++, I found myself writing production code within a month of going to work.

It would be nice if every kid with an interest in computers can start hacking (I mean that in a positive way) at code before they finish high school. It doesn't always work that way.

Quote:
What is an enterprise application?
I'm thinking non-trivial. An application that prints "Hello World!" is not an enterprise application. The software that runs Amazon.com or Google is enterprise. That may not be the official definition, but that's the terms I'm using.

For something very big and intricate, you need a very clear system architecture. Object Orientation is one of the things that can help facilitate that. It does not require it, but it can help.

Quote:
Not true. GTK, which is purely C (not C++), is object oriented.
I did not know that. Thanks.

Quote:
There are many times java applications cause earthquakes.
I said Object Orientation is an element that may help facilitate good design on a big application. It doesn't guarantee it.

Quote:
Also, the words "quick fix" implies that bash, sed, awk and/or python is a good place to start.
I don't know python. I do know bash and sed. The problem is, my coworkers don't. So unless I am absolutely guaranteed that the application I am using will only ever be modified by me, I have to write it in a scripting or programming language we all know and every subsequent programming hire will be expected to know.


Quote:
In my experience, what you need is posix threads and sockets, plus the stlprot. Or it's a LAMP app, in which PHP compares favorably to java; python is completely on par with java. Want to get all the elements of list a at the indices in list b? map(a.__getitem__, b).
I was comparing Java to C, not Python. I know Python is highly regarded, but I haven't used it so I cannot make a comparison.

Quote:
Yes, and I have man pages for C, and the help function for python. Your point being?
I was addressing your complaint that Java has too much built in to the common libraries. Yes Java has a lot builtin, but it's very easy to figure out the piece you need with Javadoc. You're making a lot of very good criticisms of Java, but I see this one as more of a whining complaint thrown in to the mix than a valid point.


Quote:
If you were to start your own free (speech and beer) software project, what would affect your decision-making process?
It depends upon timeline, scale, and the topic at hand. If it was a quick one-off project with me as the only developer, I'd probably go Java just for the sake of expedience. If not, I would have to start examining which tool is best for the job. If the project was going to big and/or valuable to the community, I would naturally go for something that was fully open source like C or Perl - or I might take the time to learn Python.

Quote:
I think you missed the point completely, and that bigearsbilly meant that java is a bloody memory hog. If that is the case, you "solution" only makes the problem worse: you're allowing the program to consume more memory than it does already.
And I'm saying that another 2 GB of RAM is, what, $200? Big deal.

Quote:
In conclusion your unconvincing arguments has--what a suprise--not convinced me. So I'm still right, you're wrong, and there's nothing you can do about it!

Regards,
Jonas
Well nyah nyah nyah to you!

Actually, I'm enjoying the discussion and learning a bit too. So thank you.
-Mike

Last edited by Michael_S; 04-26-2006 at 10:19 AM.
 
Old 04-26-2006, 10:23 AM   #30
bigearsbilly
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Quote:
And I'm saying that another 2 GB of RAM is, what, $200? Big deal.
you don't work for M$ do you

well, another 2G is a big deal in the real world when you are sticking
your app on an 8Gig managed shared server and they complain you are hogging the CPU!

Please mr sysadmin can you put some RAM on coz we are using a rubbish language?
 
  


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