LinuxQuestions.org
Help answer threads with 0 replies.
Go Back   LinuxQuestions.org > Forums > Non-*NIX Forums > General
User Name
Password
General This forum is for non-technical general discussion which can include both Linux and non-Linux topics. Have fun!

Notices

Reply
 
Search this Thread
Old 10-02-2012, 03:28 PM   #16
/dev/random
Member
 
Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Ontario, Canada
Distribution: Slackware 14.1, LFS-current, NetBSD 6.1.3
Posts: 119

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
I know all about computers.

I know nothing about cars ... except what I want to know:
  • I get in the car. I put the key in the ignition and turn it. It starts instantly. Of course.
  • I drive to wherever I want to go. I do not even consider that I might not get there.
  • I do not change the oil or the air filter for 50,000 miles. Heck, I have no idea even how to do that. ...
  • If the car breaks down for any reason, the first time "I am royally pissed," and the second time (if any) I sell the damn car.
  • I am not interested in "the car." I am interested in utterly reliable transportation.
I am a computer hacker. The friend who maintains my car is an automotive hacker. (When his Corvette blew an engine somewhere in Florida, he stopped at a campground, ordered just-the-right parts, put them in, and drove on to his destination as though nothing at all had happened.)

I would have gone straight to Hertz rent-a-car, and sold the misbegotten car where-it-sat on eBay.

I pay him to exercise his expertise, using a portion of the income that I derive from mine, "and never the twain shall meet!!"
I see your point, sorta, you only want to know how to operate it, but doesn't figuring out why you can't pull the keys out of the ignition when the car is started part of that?
Or why you can take the keys out if the car is not in park?

Some of the simpler things I see are part of the operating procedure, compiling a kernel is not one of them obviously nor is rebuilding the entire engine in a car. But when your oil levels get low or your breaks stop working do you sell the car and buy the next one or do you have your friend look at it and replace the oil and pad/routers on your car? What about bulbs? DO you replace your tail/head and signal bulbs when they die?

So what is the difference between that and modprobing the proper driver for some hardware? It's not like they are being asked to re-write the driver or build the network card from scratch... it just seems a little silly to me that's all.


Terminator3000,
By the looks of things it seems that people really don't know how the UNIX world was/is, look at systemd and upstart, by no means are these even POSIX compliant. These will never work on anything but Linux, but what about BSD and Solaris or HP-UX? Instead of changing INIT why don't they figure out another way to keep it faster but make sure all UNIX like OS's can use it. The reason why this in particular concerns me is because when GNOME and KDE (the big two DE's) start integrating things like systemd and upstart, then features on the other OS's will not work, and it's all because of non-compliant software.

(I'm a Fluxbox man btw )


H_TeXMeX_H,
Ahh I think I am starting to understand thanx
 
Old 10-02-2012, 03:37 PM   #17
Terminator3000
Member
 
Registered: Jun 2012
Distribution: Centos 6 & Fluxbox
Posts: 86

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
It IS a bit of a pointless topic.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 04:03 PM   #18
sycamorex
LQ Veteran
 
Registered: Nov 2005
Location: London
Distribution: Slackware64-current
Posts: 5,527
Blog Entries: 1

Rep: Reputation: 999Reputation: 999Reputation: 999Reputation: 999Reputation: 999Reputation: 999Reputation: 999Reputation: 999
Quote:
Why do people prefer everything work out of the box?
Not sure about that. My boss, for example, would rather his staff work from the office. Sometimes he lets me work from home. Tomorrow I'll ask if he'd let me work out of the box. To be honest, I really doubt it.

On the other hand, I know that LOL cats are fond of boxes....
 
Old 10-02-2012, 06:10 PM   #19
dugan
Senior Member
 
Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Canada
Distribution: distro hopper
Posts: 4,562

Rep: Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394Reputation: 1394
Are you familiar with the expression, "Open source is free if you don't value your time?"
 
Old 10-02-2012, 07:29 PM   #20
sundialsvcs
Guru
 
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: SE Tennessee, USA
Distribution: Gentoo, LFS
Posts: 5,253

Rep: Reputation: 1076Reputation: 1076Reputation: 1076Reputation: 1076Reputation: 1076Reputation: 1076Reputation: 1076Reputation: 1076
Quote:
Originally Posted by dugan View Post
Are you familiar with the expression, "Open source is free if you don't value your time?"
Yes, indeed ... and it's true. Not necessarily a "bad" thing, but certainly not what a majority (I think ...) of people want with their computers.

I can get into my car, turn the key, drive, and by driving, achieve my intended purpose, which emphatically is not to be stuck by the side of the road with my hood up. I know that there's a frightful amount of uber-engineering in even an ordinary car, and I want to take full advantage of that while being obliged to understand none of it in order to: "go from here to there, safely and with reasonable dispatch."

And, you know ... that can be done, and by-and-large it has. Macintosh OS/X is a pure-Unix system. So is your phone and your pad, no matter what brand it is (today). There are some really great Linux distros out there, too, which can simply take care of themselves. That will "work right out of the box." (P.S. The work that distro-writers go through, and the success with which they do it, is a thing that is easily overlooked. Thanks, all of you.)

It's easy to underestimate just how much you do know about computer software, and how "easy" it is for you (not to mention "fun"), and thereby to seriously over-estimate how much someone else knows ... or wishes to know ... or maybe chooses to know. In the earliest days of automobiles, you took your mechanic along with you. Today, millions of car-owners never raise the hood. (And yet, they drive hundreds of thousands of miles. Now that's great engineering! Great enough that they didn't even know it existed ... and didn't have to.)

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 10-02-2012 at 07:32 PM.
 
Old 10-03-2012, 06:55 AM   #21
H_TeXMeX_H
Guru
 
Registered: Oct 2005
Location: $RANDOM
Distribution: slackware64
Posts: 12,928
Blog Entries: 2

Rep: Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269Reputation: 1269
Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
I know all about computers.

I know nothing about cars ... except what I want to know:
  • I get in the car. I put the key in the ignition and turn it. It starts instantly. Of course.
  • I drive to wherever I want to go. I do not even consider that I might not get there.
  • I do not change the oil or the air filter for 50,000 miles. Heck, I have no idea even how to do that. ...
  • If the car breaks down for any reason, the first time "I am royally pissed," and the second time (if any) I sell the damn car.
  • I am not interested in "the car." I am interested in utterly reliable transportation.
  • I am here. I want to go there. An automobile is therefore a necessary evil. Beyond that, my interest it completely ends, and I am happy for it so to do.
If you are being serious, then this is exactly the kind of attitude that I would like to focus on.

I make it a point to try to understand everything that I am able to ... and I don't believe there is anything I cannot understand. If I cannot understand something because it doesn't make sense, then I deem it wrong. I am not a car hacker, but I do know things about a car, things that will keep it running. Honestly, I never really strived to learn about computers in-depth, I learned what I know mostly from using computers, figuring them out and a few articles here and there. I don't believe that anyone can teach me anything, they can only help me to focus and consider a problem, I have to be the one that teaches me ... the one that learns. That's really the only point of teachers to say "Hey, pay attention, I will demonstrate something, and you figure it out, while I'll try to explain." The explanation is almost not important, because it does not usually aid understanding, at least not for me. I have to look at the problem from multiple angles, generate theories on how it works and experiment until I believe more in one of them than the rest. With more experimentation, I can change my theory and I do. In fact, it's pretty useless to write most of my theories down, because they change quickly.

As for cars, everyone should know a few basic rules on maintenance, even if they themselves do not maintain their car. I check the oil every 2-3 months of driving, based on usage, and change it if it is dirty ... of course I don't change it, the mechanic does. You have to be just as weary of mechanics as of any other profession including computer repair. Not too long ago someone posted a link about an incident where Geek Squad was caught sabotaging people's computers just to have them buy new hardware. Recently, in a former communist country we were having problems with the brakes on our car. We went to a mechanic and he said it was the brakes and he will change them. However, when the time came to lift the car, they told us to leave the shop and wait outside. We refused, because not only are we in a former communist country, but also because other clients were not asked to do so. Our car was more expensive than their usual clients and he know we were foreigners who speak English. He said he can't change the brakes with us watching (probably for obvious reasons such as potential sabotage or used parts replacement) so we just asked for the keys and left. We later fixed it in a more civilized country.

The conclusion is that you don't need to know everything about your car or your computer, but you need to know the basics. If you don't, then you are the one that pays, and you deserve every bit of it.

I also keep the tires inflated properly on my car, mostly because it alters handling. I never trust others to inflate my tires, because it seems they don't care to check the pressures. I really do not have any respect for anyone who cannot even do their job properly. Someone who is a specialist or professional in their field and yet omits details and sometimes even larger things.
 
Old 10-03-2012, 07:27 AM   #22
brianL
LQ 5k Club
 
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Oldham, Lancs, England
Distribution: Slackware & Slackware64 14.1
Posts: 6,889
Blog Entries: 51

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Vampires prefer working out-of-the-box.
 
Old 10-04-2012, 02:45 AM   #23
PrinceCruise
Member
 
Registered: Aug 2009
Location: /Universe/Earth/India/Pune
Distribution: Slackware64 14.1/Current, CentOS 6.5/7.0
Posts: 713

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianL View Post
Vampires prefer working out-of-the-box.
LOL. Good one.
I hope you're not talking about the glitter-face vampire made famous by teenage girls these days.


Regards.
 
Old 10-04-2012, 02:54 AM   #24
k3lt01
Senior Member
 
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Australia
Distribution: Debian Wheezy, Jessie, Sid/Experimental, playing with Slackware 14.
Posts: 2,577

Rep: Reputation: 534Reputation: 534Reputation: 534Reputation: 534Reputation: 534Reputation: 534
Computers are a tool and many people have no interest in them apart from them working when they need them and doing what they need. That's why people want things working ootb and OEM PC suppliers used to supply install CDs/DVDs that were basically just ghost images of a fully set up Windows install. People don't want to set up wireless drivers or video/sound drivers to get things working they just want it working.
 
Old 10-04-2012, 03:13 AM   #25
sycamorex
LQ Veteran
 
Registered: Nov 2005
Location: London
Distribution: Slackware64-current
Posts: 5,527
Blog Entries: 1

Rep: Reputation: 999Reputation: 999Reputation: 999Reputation: 999Reputation: 999Reputation: 999Reputation: 999Reputation: 999
Seriously, do we really need a 2-page dedicated thread to answer this question?
 
Old 10-04-2012, 03:17 AM   #26
PrinceCruise
Member
 
Registered: Aug 2009
Location: /Universe/Earth/India/Pune
Distribution: Slackware64 14.1/Current, CentOS 6.5/7.0
Posts: 713

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
Everybody is just having good time here, not answering 'coz that'd be pointless, no?

Regards.
 
Old 10-04-2012, 03:20 AM   #27
lqo
LQ Newbie
 
Registered: Aug 2012
Posts: 1

Rep: Reputation: Disabled
I think it is important to have people who just want it to work using Linux and that those who want the relatively open and powerful flexibility to keep it flexible and controllable.

The more people that switch to Linux the more manufacturers will (I think) see the need to supply this growing market so it is in the interest of serious hackers to facilitate this symbiotic relationship (imo) and for simple users to ask for help and expect to get it tailored to their stated needs.

I don't think it need be seen as a problem at all.

Anyway, it is at the point at which it became easily usable that I switched and the way I see it things are only getting better except I see some trying to create distros that rely on proprietasry software and, like windows did with dos, hide the real OS in the gui. This is, imo, a problem to avoid because it is a reason I went sour on MS to start with. Ultimately I do like the idea of being able to be in control of my computer if I want to be.
 
Old 10-04-2012, 04:50 AM   #28
k3lt01
Senior Member
 
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Australia
Distribution: Debian Wheezy, Jessie, Sid/Experimental, playing with Slackware 14.
Posts: 2,577

Rep: Reputation: 534Reputation: 534Reputation: 534Reputation: 534Reputation: 534Reputation: 534
Quote:
Originally Posted by sycamorex View Post
Seriously, do we really need a 2-page dedicated thread to answer this question?
I'm only on page 1!

If we aren't allowed to post our opinions then just say so, a question is asked and people post their individual thoughts. Last time I heard LQ had freedom of speech, to a certain extent, and that allows people to post in reply to questions if they so desire. As long as it is on topic what is the harm? You don't have to read it.
 
Old 10-04-2012, 08:12 AM   #29
spudgunner
Member
 
Registered: Dec 2009
Distribution: Slackware
Posts: 227

Rep: Reputation: 18
I think user sundialsvcs really hit the nail on the head with this one. I was going to reply to this yesterday but I got distracted and after finally reading it, his answer is very similar to how mine is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
... I can get into my car, turn the key, drive, and by driving, achieve my intended purpose, which emphatically is not to be stuck by the side of the road with my hood up. I know that there's a frightful amount of uber-engineering in even an ordinary car, and I want to take full advantage of that while being obliged to understand none of it in order to: "go from here to there, safely and with reasonable dispatch." ...

It's easy to underestimate just how much you do know about computer software, and how "easy" it is for you (not to mention "fun"), and thereby to seriously over-estimate how much someone else knows ... or wishes to know ... or maybe chooses to know. In the earliest days of automobiles, you took your mechanic along with you. Today, millions of car-owners never raise the hood. (And yet, they drive hundreds of thousands of miles. Now that's great engineering! Great enough that they didn't even know it existed ... and didn't have to.)
It hasn't been very long since I've left university (a couple years). Coming from a engineering program where the focus was robotics, I've been surrounded by people who know their way around computers for the 5 years I was there. My (girlfriend at the time) wife did 3D animation at her school and I found that although most of her friends weren't quite as proficient with computers as I am, they knew their way around enough to fix most problems they encountered (I did help some of them on a couple of occasions). From this constant experience of being around different types of nerds and geeks for that long, I got a somewhat skewed sense of "average computer literacy". Now that I am in the real world, I see that most of the population treats computers as they do any other appliance: buy it in a "set and forget" format, and use it as intended until it breaks, then get it fixed by an "expert" or buy a new one (only difference I've noticed is that some people think they are experts for whatever reason and will mess it up even more, but I expect this happens in every field to a degree, not just computers).

So the point is, for us, a computer is something useful and something to tinker with. Just like a car for a mechanic.

But for everyone else: Computer = Microwave = Dishwasher = Refrigerator = Television. I don't care how it works as long as it works after I plug it in. And if it breaks, I'll get someone else to fix it or get a new one. What would you do if you had to buy the refrigerant separate from your refrigerator and charge the refrigerant loop yourself? If a motor dies in your dishwasher do you figure out what motor it needs, order the part and install it yourself? If you went to use your microwave one day and it gave you an error code saying the bulb is no longer working at an acceptable efficiency, do you take the microwave apart and replace the bulb yourself? What if you bought a new TV, turned it on and heard a capacitor pop in the back. Would you figure out which capacitor popped and solder on a new one, replace the whole board, or just send it back for warranty? I know people that could do these things themselves but for even those with the capability don't always "do it yourself" because it's easier to let someone else deal with the problem and they have other things they'd rather be doing than fixing things all day.
 
Old 10-04-2012, 08:27 AM   #30
/dev/random
Member
 
Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Ontario, Canada
Distribution: Slackware 14.1, LFS-current, NetBSD 6.1.3
Posts: 119

Original Poster
Rep: Reputation: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudgunner View Post
So the point is, for us, a computer is something useful and something to tinker with. Just like a car for a mechanic.

But for everyone else: Computer = Microwave = Dishwasher = Refrigerator = Television. I don't care how it works as long as it works after I plug it in. And if it breaks, I'll get someone else to fix it or get a new one. What would you do if you had to buy the refrigerant separate from your refrigerator and charge the refrigerant loop yourself? If a motor dies in your dishwasher do you figure out what motor it needs, order the part and install it yourself? If you went to use your microwave one day and it gave you an error code saying the bulb is no longer working at an acceptable efficiency, do you take the microwave apart and replace the bulb yourself? What if you bought a new TV, turned it on and heard a capacitor pop in the back. Would you figure out which capacitor popped and solder on a new one, replace the whole board, or just send it back for warranty? I know people that could do these things themselves but for even those with the capability don't always "do it yourself" because it's easier to let someone else deal with the problem and they have other things they'd rather be doing than fixing things all day.
Very good answer, but if everything is always being done for you, then wouldn't the average intelligence level drop? I mean if you look back at the 60's, they had mechanics but most people fixed their own cars, not because they were experts, or they were in the field, they simply took the time to figure it out. My thinking is why pay someone you don't have to? If people solely rely on everyone else to do anything outside of their profession then what happens when society as a whole crashes? I was always taught that a person should always try to do something on their own before seeking help. Maybe this is why I have a hard time understanding this whole 'if it doesn't work, just chuck it!' mentality.
 
  


Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Would this work if enough people took part? Ulysses_ Linux - Networking 45 10-24-2009 07:41 PM
Distro + WM for Kiosk-type box for old people Jimmy The Clown Linux - Distributions 1 11-02-2005 08:56 PM
An idea for a survey: What country have the largest number of people prefer linux TruongAn LQ Suggestions & Feedback 2 09-11-2005 10:56 AM
Connect to work box from home box slackist Linux - Networking 4 09-18-2004 05:34 AM
how can I have people telnet/ssh to my box when im behind a router? digsby0007 Linux - Networking 4 11-19-2003 05:42 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:56 AM.

Main Menu
My LQ
Write for LQ
LinuxQuestions.org is looking for people interested in writing Editorials, Articles, Reviews, and more. If you'd like to contribute content, let us know.
Main Menu
Syndicate
RSS1  Latest Threads
RSS1  LQ News
Twitter: @linuxquestions
identi.ca: @linuxquestions
Facebook: linuxquestions Google+: linuxquestions
Open Source Consulting | Domain Registration