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Old 10-02-2012, 12:12 PM   #1
/dev/random
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Why do people prefer everything work out of the box?


I have been using UNIX family based OS's for a while now. Can some one answer me on why people prefer things "Just Work TM" I understand it's more convenient for the software to do everything, but what happens when something goes wrong?

I am used to setting up all my hardware, I dislike HAL, D-Bus, Udev and the lot but I understand they are a necessary evil. But why do people get mad when xxx hardware doesn't get automagically detected in yyy distro?

How hard can it be to do an lspci -vv | Network Controller and find out what driver it needs and configure it to load at start up? it's not rocket science. Also why not google the hardware model and see if someone has already found a way to get it working?

I am used to setting in a shell with nothing but lynx, a toolchain and sometimes if I am lucky ssh. I am just curious on why people just distro hop when zzz feature doesn't work out of the box.

It also scares me, because are these the people that are going to be creating programs for linux in the future, without any actual knowledge of how UNIX works? Do they known anything about POSIX standards?

This question popped in my head when I was asked why I use /bin/sh instead of /bin/bash or /bin/dash in my shell scripts.

Also with recent things coming up like systemd (which IMHO is an absolute mess and is in no way worth its trouble, it's not even POSIX complaint). I realize there is speed to be gained from systemd, but not much. I did some tests of my own and the results were interesting, systemd preforms well in a single core environment, but in a multicore environment, if one rewrites their init scripts to span across multiple cpu's their is not that big of a speed advantage to be used with systemd so why break everything just for speed gains that aren't worth it?

I donno as I get older I am starting to see that most people aren't getting smarter, they are getting stupid. It's like we have reached our potential and now we are going back down


What do you guys think?
 
Old 10-02-2012, 12:46 PM   #2
moxieman99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by /dev/random View Post
I have been using UNIX family based OS's for a while now. Can some one answer me on why people prefer things "Just Work TM" I understand it's more convenient for the software to do everything, but what happens when something goes wrong?

I am used to setting up all my hardware, I dislike HAL, D-Bus, Udev and the lot but I understand they are a necessary evil. But why do people get mad when xxx hardware doesn't get automagically detected in yyy distro?

How hard can it be to do an lspci -vv | Network Controller and find out what driver it needs and configure it to load at start up? it's not rocket science. Also why not google the hardware model and see if someone has already found a way to get it working?

I am used to setting in a shell with nothing but lynx, a toolchain and sometimes if I am lucky ssh. I am just curious on why people just distro hop when zzz feature doesn't work out of the box.

It also scares me, because are these the people that are going to be creating programs for linux in the future, without any actual knowledge of how UNIX works? Do they known anything about POSIX standards?

This question popped in my head when I was asked why I use /bin/sh instead of /bin/bash or /bin/dash in my shell scripts.

Also with recent things coming up like systemd (which IMHO is an absolute mess and is in no way worth its trouble, it's not even POSIX complaint). I realize there is speed to be gained from systemd, but not much. I did some tests of my own and the results were interesting, systemd preforms well in a single core environment, but in a multicore environment, if one rewrites their init scripts to span across multiple cpu's their is not that big of a speed advantage to be used with systemd so why break everything just for speed gains that aren't worth it?

I donno as I get older I am starting to see that most people aren't getting smarter, they are getting stupid. It's like we have reached our potential and now we are going back down


What do you guys think?
Your attitude is fine for people who want to focus on computers and take the time to learn all about various OSs and distributions. Others have different interests and time needs. I like to dabble in linux, but being a lawyer who is not involved with computer-related law, I have no desire to get too deep (for me) into computer workings. I don't like apt-get, because I learn nothing from installing things that way, but I admit that there are times when cryptic and vague instructions from the computer intelligensia make me run screaming to it and other package installers. I simply won't (and can't) spend the time to get that deeply into computer technology and theory.

No doubt there are things that you do that others would look down their noses on. For example, do you drive an automatic, or a manual transmission? If an automatic, how is your "failure" to use a stick shift any different from someone else wanting to have plug and play on their computer?

I could say the same thing about the law, but I am sure we all get the idea.

Moxieman
 
Old 10-02-2012, 12:56 PM   #3
DavidMcCann
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I have a reasonable understand of how my computer works (I hope!), but that's because I'm interested: I can't see that it's essential. What goes on in my TV or my central heating system? Other people know about these things: that's called division of labour and characterises complex societies. Or, as Belloc wrote, "It is the duty of the moneyed man to give employment to the artisan".

As for the "Unix compatibility" issue, that could become the tail wagging the dog. AIX and HP-UX are still on offer, but alongside Linux. Solaris and BSD are very minor products. Look at the statistics for web servers:
http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/os-unix/all/all
When governments and companies switch, it's Linux they switch to. Solaris added Linux compatibility in 2002: I think that tells us which way the wind's blowing.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 01:00 PM   #4
/dev/random
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I guess, but I can drive manual (in fact I don't think to date I have ever owned an automatic) Law I know nothing of however.

I was always blessed with the curiosity to take things apart even if I broke them. But has Linux evolves I ask myself why this and why that.
Has anyone noticed the unnecessary changes? For example, I think Slackware 9.1 has a much cleaner code base then Slackware 14 does...
To me it seems that we are too eger to break things that have always worked but we aren't so eager to provide a solution that solves the
problems of the past and the current problems, we just care about fixing current problems and don't care if they break support that has been
their for ages!
 
Old 10-02-2012, 01:36 PM   #5
273
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Easy answer for you, /dev/random, not everyone has time. If you don't like how things are going create your own distro.
If you're so self-sufficient it ought to be easy for you, you're not too stupid are you?
 
Old 10-02-2012, 01:45 PM   #6
/dev/random
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 273 View Post
Easy answer for you, /dev/random, not everyone has time. If you don't like how things are going create your own distro.
If you're so self-sufficient it ought to be easy for you, you're not too stupid are you?
Actually, I have been looking at LFS and CLFS as a base to start such a project. I wouldn't say I am the smartest person on the planet, I would say before posting something I usually look into it before asking someone else to help me out.

Making a distro sounds awesome in theory, but even a smaller distro like slackware has more then one person developing and maintaining it, I couldn't possibly create a disto from scratch, develop and maintain it all by myself. It's like having a pit crew of one at NASCAR... not gonna happen. :P

If time is a factor though, how would downloading endless amount's of distos be less time consuming then digging into the problem tho? Or do people settle when most of their problems are fixed and just live with the annoyances they can't fix?
 
Old 10-02-2012, 01:49 PM   #7
273
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People use a distro that "just works" like Mint or Ubuntu do for many people. If those don't work, or they want games, they stick with Windows. If they want real simplicity without having to think they buy a Mac.
If you feel people are stupid or lazy for not working through pages of threads to solve Linux problems when they could just buy and OS then you;'re a little hypocritical if you don't create your own distro after bemoaning the direction distros are taking. If Linus could create the kernel, and Pat create Slackware then why can't you create your own distro?
 
Old 10-02-2012, 01:57 PM   #8
/dev/random
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Creating something is hard, do able but hard, maintaining something and steering it in the right direction is harder, I look at Slackware from when it was SLS until now and Pat really knew what he was doing, I don't think I could do that, I mean I am sure I could finish an LFS and BLFS install, but then where do I take it from there? What made Pat choose the things he did?

I guess what I am saying is I am a fearfull of what others might think of my end result. Also how did Slackware get it's following? What dove people to like it the way people do?
 
Old 10-02-2012, 02:01 PM   #9
273
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Then I don't understand the point of this topic.
You bemoan other people who want things handed to them on a plate yet you want the same.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 02:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by /dev/random View Post
I have been using UNIX family based OS's for a while now. Can some one answer me on why people prefer things "Just Work TM" I understand it's more convenient for the software to do everything, but what happens when something goes wrong?
Um, obviously people prefer things not go wrong, ie Just Work (TM).

Quote:
How hard can it be to do an lspci -vv | Network Controller and find out what driver it needs and configure it to load at start up?
Slightly harder than having the computer do the legwork.

Quote:
I am used to setting in a shell with nothing but lynx, a toolchain and sometimes if I am lucky ssh. I am just curious on why people just distro hop when zzz feature doesn't work out of the box.
The grass is always greener...

Quote:
Also with recent things coming up like systemd (which IMHO is an absolute mess and is in no way worth its trouble, it's not even POSIX complaint). I realize there is speed to be gained from systemd, but not much. I did some tests of my own and the results were interesting, systemd preforms well in a single core environment, but in a multicore environment, if one rewrites their init scripts to span across multiple cpu's their is not that big of a speed advantage to be used with systemd so why break everything just for speed gains that aren't worth it?
So you would prefer the current init system that Just Works (TM)?
 
Old 10-02-2012, 02:14 PM   #11
H_TeXMeX_H
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It's mainly a difference in attitude. In a mechanic's shop, I saw a poster which said that your attitude is the most important thing in like, more important than fame, riches, intelligence, etc. I think it was right.

The only thing I run now is D-bus ... but I'm not completely sure if anything actually needs it. I have seen errors on the CLI in the past concerning D-bus, so I will leave it on.

I always use '#!/bin/sh', mostly because I learned to program in bash in a different way. You see, I got bored with the howto. I mean, I had a goal in mind of what I wanted to do, and the howto was getting boring, so I decided to just start coding. I never learned all the features of bash, and I don't need them. In fact, I consider this a good thing, because they don't improve performance or readability or functionality. I only need 'sh' and all my scripts work with sh. I mostly use the other well-known programs to do all the work, because they are much more efficient than doing it in bash ... like awk, sed, grep, find, comm, etc. These are programs optimized to do their task and do it well ... you know like UNIX and POSIX philosophy.

It is easier when everything works out-of-the-box, but you learn less, and when something breaks ... well just look at Ubuntu users, they are the best example.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 02:17 PM   #12
/dev/random
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ntubski,

Haha INIT just works? It works because it's been around for years and years and years (possibly before I was born), so it doesn't just work, it took a lot to get INIT where it is now.

273,
I don't want anything handed to me, I just wish people would open their eyes before then attempt to drive. (meaning if your going to waste time on distro hopping, why not just take the time to learn what you are going to need to know anyways if they want to keep their box up and running, things break)

The point of this thread is to help me understand why people waste so much energy looking for that perfect distro that has all these changes to it (that are not complaint with anything else) but they don't even consider taking all that time they just spent on distro hopping and just make the distro they choose in the first place just work.

As you pointed out time maybe a factor here, but I see people spending an equal amount of time looking for something that simply doesn't exist.
I mean no disrespect to anyone, I just am curious why people take this direction and not the other?
 
Old 10-02-2012, 02:28 PM   #13
273
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But the thing they are looking for does exist. If, for example, Debian doesn't support their wireless card out of the box chances are mint Might. There are other similar examples regarding other distros. Slackware, for example, doesn't give X out-of-the-box (if you don't to don't want to understand) but Fedora "just works".
Distro hopping takes less time than finding a solution in many cases -- certainly would have, for example, in my case of not having Google Earth in Sid. It would have been much simpler to go to Xubuntu and not look back. Can't say I gained much for it apart from a system I'm more comfortable with.
Of course, as I mentioned, if that doesn't work they'll go to Windows or mac.
I know a guy who used Slackware from pretty much day one, worked day-in day-out with Unix, used to mess with setting up various client-server relationships for fun using Solaris, Linux and Windows when he felt like a masochist. He now writes Unix and Linux based system-monitoring applications and scripts for living. He uses OSX exclusively at home. Why? Because he got "sick of pissing around getting things to work".
 
Old 10-02-2012, 02:40 PM   #14
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It depends on what you are trying to achieve and your priorities. I am learning also Java and Python so can only put so much time in at the moment learning Linux. I will be lucky to get to LPIC 1 in the next 12 months but if I did it would be fine and dandy. Linux is an extremely expansive subject and I am constantly noting the superior knowledge of some of the posters here who have been involved perhaps 10-20 years or more.

Quote:
It also scares me, because are these the people that are going to be creating programs for linux in the future, without any actual knowledge of how UNIX work
The above is improbable as it would be necessary to have reasonable knowledge of Linux to create a program for it, I would have thought.
 
Old 10-02-2012, 03:08 PM   #15
sundialsvcs
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I know all about computers.

I know nothing about cars ... except what I want to know:
  • I get in the car. I put the key in the ignition and turn it. It starts instantly. Of course.
  • I drive to wherever I want to go. I do not even consider that I might not get there.
  • I do not change the oil or the air filter for 50,000 miles. Heck, I have no idea even how to do that. ...
  • If the car breaks down for any reason, the first time "I am royally pissed," and the second time (if any) I sell the damn car.
  • I am not interested in "the car." I am interested in utterly reliable transportation.
  • I am here. I want to go there. An automobile is therefore a necessary evil. Beyond that, my interest it completely ends, and I am happy for it so to do.
I am a computer hacker. The friend who maintains my car is an automotive hacker. (When his Corvette blew an engine somewhere in Florida, he stopped at a campground, ordered just-the-right parts, put them in, and drove on to his destination as though nothing at all had happened.)

I would have gone straight to Hertz rent-a-car, and sold the misbegotten car where-it-sat on eBay.

I pay him to exercise his expertise, using a portion of the income that I derive from mine, "and never the twain shall meet!!"

Your clients feel the same way about computers.

"And if you can't give me what I want, I will find someone else, and oh-by-the-way in very short order, who will!"

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 10-02-2012 at 03:12 PM.
 
  


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