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I apologize if this seems dumb, but my problem has gotten so bad that any time I read something like this, a quote pops into my mind that's stuck in my head for what is probably going to be a long time, unless I can get over this whole existentialism-free-will-vs-determinism thing
Haven't you thought about random (as in chance, not sure what's the appropriate word in english)? I think that, even if in some cases there is this string of cause and consequence the determinism talks about, the chance plays a very important role in everything (as well as free will, if we talk about humans). I mean, not everything is predetermined; in my opinion, it's all a swirling mix of causes, consequences, chance and free will.
Haven't you thought about random (as in chance, not sure what's the appropriate word in english)? I think that, even if in some cases there is this string of cause and consequence the determinism talks about, the chance plays a very important role in everything (as well as free will, if we talk about humans). I mean, not everything is predetermined; in my opinion, it's all a swirling mix of causes, consequences, chance and free will.
Oh, don't even get me started on this whole thing...the randomness vs. chaos debate (i.e. whether or not there is a such thing as "true" randomness) is still alive and kicking. Einstein's "God does not play dice" comes to mind here.
See, I think the only reason I want to believe in something "beyond the physical" is because it seems like the only way out of my misery. Materialism, to me, is just depressing: imagination is just sparks in the brain, everything is predetermined, there is no afterlife or a such thing as reincarnation, etc. It makes everything seem hopeless, pointless, and all a result of circumstance (since after all, it was all predetermined anyway).
Not only that, but what about other animals? They're assumed to be automatons (which raises other personal issues in me that I'd rather not discuss here; that fact depresses me, let's put it that way ). What makes humans so different? After all, we're technically animals, too! The only difference is that we have a greater level of intelligence.
Not only that, but what about other animals? They're assumed to be automatons (which raises other personal issues in me that I'd rather not discuss here; that fact depresses me, let's put it that way ). What makes humans so different? After all, we're technically animals, too! The only difference is that we have a greater level of intelligence.
I don't assume that animals are automations. A lot of people don't. Insects, perhaps, but animals with higher intelligence? I think not.
Yes, intelligence does play into it. But perhaps our brains are the radios, and our souls are the signal. Therefore a person who sustains brain damage is not a different person; their "radio" is just damaged.
Do you think these meaningless chemical reactions are causing you to go on a hunt for meaning? Hmmmm. I'm afraid there's more to humanity than that.
Sects! Sects! Sects! Is that all the monks ever think about? "Jeebiz"
How much for the little girls? "Blues Brothers"
Every sperm is precious! "Monty Python"
everything is meaningless. Seriously. "MrCode"
The most meaningless form of life is spending it believing in a lie. "Stargate; Dr. Jackson"
The only thing in life that has meaning is what we leave the next generation. "Don't remember who said this"
Don't waste your life on religion, especially when there is something good you could be doing for others. "me"
See, I think the only reason I want to believe in something "beyond the physical" is because it seems like the only way out of my misery.
The only reason you want to believe in something beyond the physical is because it makes sense. Why do matter or physical laws exist at all? What is their point? Is there a purpose to things and what could that be?
I'm sure that scientists are the last ones to turn to with those kinds of question. Every form of knowledge is based on metaphysical assumptions and the fundamental assumption of science is that the only thing that will count as real is what is quantifiable. But why should that be true? Is there a physical, logical or divine law that connects quantifiability and reality in a unique way? I don't think so. Like "good" or "bad", "real" is a social construct: it does not spell out an a priori truth but a social convention. Something is "real" not because it is real but because we consider it to be such - and such considerations ultimately precede facts. It is a matter of social conventions.
Maybe I should mention the Austrian philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein here. Wittgenstein was initially very much committed to the logical positivism that was prevalent in the thirties, which was very much about defining truth conditions. The central thesis was that things can be said to be true or real only if:
- they are empirically verifiable (they can be observed)
- they are logically necessary (they must be true of themselves, e.g. a circle must be round: if it is not round, it is not a circle because we define a circle as something that is round. Period.)
And then Ludwig, after studying mathematics, psychology and language, came to the conclusion that logical positivism is plain rubbish. Words have multiple meanings and there does not exist any criterion to prefer one meaning over another one. Gödel and Heisenberg pointed out that randomness or undecidability characterize mathematics and physics as well. Logical paradoxes show that logic is not perfect either. Read the "Two Dogmas of Empiricism" by the American logician W. von Quine if you can't imagine what I mean.
Those observations led Wittgenstein to the insight that facts do not lead to world views but that world views lead to facts. If you have chosen to believe that science (the deterministic type in your case) is the ultimate or even the only arbiter of reality, then you will end up believing also that things are not real unless they confirm your belief in determinism. All other "facts" (but because of your belief in determinism, you won't even consider them to be "facts") are discarded because they are incompatible with your world view. Think of a game of football. Why are the rules of football the way they are? Clearly, they are not imposed by physical law, logical necessity of divine command. The only reason they exist is because we have fixed in our minds a certain conception of what football is and because we need some restrictions in order to produce something that will actually look like what we have in mind. Change the rules and you may well end up with something that is not any longer football (or rather, that will no longer be recognized as such by your peers, though you are free to call it just that). Break the rules and you will be sent off because you are deviating from the chosen road. But at no time will anyone claim that you are breaking anything like a law of nature. Likewise, belief in determinism is not a universal necessity, it is a condition to be admitted to a specific group; and that condition was established by that group because it was found to be the most efficient means to their end. If you bear that in mind, you will see that determinism is not a universal truth but just a tool, just as science is not THE truth but one specific conception of truth.
Ecology speaks volumes about the "animals are automatons" issue...
Quote:
Do you think these meaningless chemical reactions are causing you to go on a hunt for meaning?
Do you think it was predetermined that I would worry about determinism? It is entirely possible.
@jay73
I don't claim to be a devout believer in determinism, but right now it just seems like the most likely option, and this is what's depressing me. After all, we live in a state of perpetual information-incompleteness; we can never know everything. However, just the fact that we can learn new things about the universe and quantify them with deterministic theories seems like enough to say that the universe is deterministic, and thus everything is predetermined. Although keeping what you said in mind, that could just be one philosophical POV, and I'm only unaware of others.
EDIT: Just one more thing:
What does it really mean for us to "understand the universe"? Just what meaning does that have, other than for us to act on it to our own survival benefit? See, this is the thing that makes everything seem meaningless and pointless to me. By copping out with the old "life is what you make of it" POV, you're just turning back to using it for your (or others') survival benefit. Life is a game of survival, no more, even if we aren't consciously aware of it. Even "spiritual" thoughts/actions are just another deterministic construct in this pointless game of survival.
Yes, I am a pure-blood Christian and so definitely voted in favor of the firm believer option. However, what I am ***NOT*** is a conservative. Reserve that for the greedy monopoly-owning robber-baron hypocrites who call themselves Christians.
Determinism is a dangerous concept.
It does away with responsibility for one's actions. Why, if we have no choice, do we punish criminals? Why send murderers and child molesters to prison if they can't help it?
It helps all forms of elitism: the class and caste systems. Don't try to better yourself. Don't get ideas above your station.
It's fatalistic. Even in its scientific guise, it's still the same as the old belief that everything happens through God's will.
Just one thing that came to my mind just now: I think the other reason why I'm having such a hard time finding my own "spiritual truth", if you will, has to do with social acceptance. I don't want to get caught up in arguments/flame wars/etc. with people who are hard determinists or devout theists...I have virtually no confidence in defending my own views. (BTW, before you say that I already have gotten into an argument by posting in this thread, I think this is more of an intelligent discussion than an argument.)
Of course I've talked my mom to death about these issues: she's very spiritual (albeit in a way not specific to any religion that I know of), and we do have disagreements over beliefs, so naturally we get into discussions/arguments about whether there's a such thing as a metaphysical "soul/spirit" or whether some kind of "great awakening" is coming soon/already happening (yeah, she's like that ), etc. The thing is, there are some things that she tells me about (and that I see in other places) that I'd like to believe, and they seem at least semi-plausible to me, but then my inner skepticist comes out and believes it's all crazy-talk (or at least most of it is), and/or that I'm just being ignorant and don't know about the scientific/logical/whatever evidence that refutes/debunks it. I'm locked in this self-argument over what the *real* truth is.
So I guess my problem isn't really about religion per se, it's more about spirituality and/or spiritualism (which is a totally different ball game), and IMO religion != spirituality. (<- That last statement should start a good discussion for the topic of this thread )
@brianL
Quote:
Determinism is a dangerous concept.
It does away with responsibility for one's actions. Why, if we have no choice, do we punish criminals? Why send murderers and child molesters to prison if they can't help it?
IIRC the classic rebuttal to this argument is that punishment is used as an incentive to do better in the future (unless of course the criminal/delinquent is so out-of-whack that they literally can't be helped); it's a corrective measure, not a preventative one. Besides that, if you define all effects resulting from causes to also be causes for proceeding events, one could, in a rather back-handed way, say that the criminal *was* responsible for their actions, because they *were* the cause of the misdeed(s), despite that cause also being an effect of previous causes. Yeah, I sound convinced of the determinist POV, don't I? But I can also see the other side of that argument: if that is true, then we should be also punishing everyone who has ever associated with the criminal/delinquent in any way, because they (however indirectly) affected the criminal/delinquent in such a way as to make them do the misdeed(s) of which they are responsible. But yeah, that's raising the determinism-morality debate, which I don't want to do in this thread, so...
The above ought to be proof enough of how deep I've gotten myself into all this...it's hard for me to stop thinking about it sometimes.
IMHO religion should be banned! Freedom from religion is what the world needs!
In the timeline of this planet, religion has existed for only about a few hundred milliseconds. (Earth formed approx. 4.5 billion years ago). Millions have died because of religion, it is time to end it.
Religion is a lie used to control others via fear and ignorance. It is time humans grow out of it.
IMHO religion should be banned! Freedom from religion is what the world needs!
Would be nice, you would see much less wars for one thing...
People have been killed and enslaved (and justified enslavement) through the use of religion (certain religions actually condone it *cough*), and people as recently as a few decades ago were forced to make room for another group of people, because their *cough* religion, said that they would return there no matter what, if that does mean at the cost of those who have already been living there centuries already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yonnieboy
In the timeline of this planet, religion has existed for only about a few hundred milliseconds. (Earth formed approx. 4.5 billion years ago). Millions have died because of religion, it is time to end it.
Christian nutjubs would obviously disagree, the Earth is only a few thousand years old, and if you throw the argument about dinosaurs at them, either they will say 'well god put that there to test our faith', or now worse, suggest somehow that 'man & dinosaur actually DID coexist' and any other fallacious nonsense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yonnieboy
Religion is a lie used to control others via fear and ignorance. It is time humans grow out of it.
Its more like an addiction, you can't simply take religion away because all those who are so indoctrinated in the mass delusion will fight to keep it, (kinda like those in the Matrix who aren't ready to be unplugged, and will actually fight for the current system).
IMHO religion should be banned! Freedom from religion is what the world needs!
It's funny how some atheists can be "religiously anti-religious".
Religious behavior is human nature-- all that's different is what religion one chooses to follow, or whether one chooses a religion at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yonnieboy
In the timeline of this planet, religion has existed for only about a few hundred milliseconds. (Earth formed approx. 4.5 billion years ago). Millions have died because of religion, it is time to end it.
Humanity has also existed for a few hundred milliseconds; as old as religion itself.
Do you not realize how many millions have died as a result of "atheism"? Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot...
Quote:
Originally Posted by yonnieboy
Religion is a lie used to control others via fear and ignorance. It is time humans grow out of it.
Nice to see Marx's antiquated ideas are still floating around.
For people who believe that life is a set of chemical reactions and that upon death there will be no level of conscience or memory, you sure do push your beliefs. Atheist evangelists, or something like it.
And now before the thread spirals out of control, I will go spend my time elsewhere, happy to be religious.
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