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View Poll Results: You are a...
firm believer 166 28.77%
Deist 18 3.12%
Theist 23 3.99%
Agnostic 120 20.80%
Atheist 250 43.33%
Voters: 577. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-16-2008, 12:52 PM   #631
jiml8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quakeboy02 View Post
Jim, if it's not true then the theory of evolution reduces from a theory to only a hypothesis, or in the worst case, a conjecture. Perhaps you'd care to show a discovery that doesn't support the current theory of evolution?
And again I say unto you that this is the wrong way to phrase it. That which does not CONTRADICT the theory of evolution can be said to support it, even if that support is passive. But saying that an arbitrary fact does support evolution is putting it wrong. The scientific method is about overthrowing theories, not supporting them.

Quote:
Behe took the best shot at irreducible complexity in the courtroom with the subject of flagellum. He was ripped to shreds, and shown for the fraud he was in a way that even the judge could understand. Since then, there don't seem to be any takers to the challenge of king of irreducible complexity. They eye isn't even a viable target for the IC guys at this point, as there are too many examples of the eye in nature from the simple to the complex.
Yes, he got skinned and quite properly so.

But I am still going with the flagellum example as a case that fits into the theory of evolution but doesn't support it. That intermediate phase that is shown to exist in the plague bacterium as a stinger is interesting but, since the "missing link" that shows the formation of a rotary mechanism has not been found, the case is not "proven".

The flagellum certainly does not contradict the theory of evolution, and therefore fits. The appearance of the intermediate phase indicates that the flagellum fits rather well. Until every piece of the puzzle is put into its place, so that every step along the way of the evolution of any particular structure is fully in view, then the existence of that structure cannot be said to "support" the theory. It can be said to "fit" the theory and that is all.

Remember: We NEVER want to "support" a theory. If it needs to be supported, it probably should be discarded. What we always want to do is tear down a theory. Destroy it. Prove it wrong and false.

When we cannot do this, then we have something.

Evolution has withstood every scientific attempt to tear it down. Everyone believes it will continue to resist such attempts, but the attempts will be made relentlessly anyway.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 12:59 PM   #632
Quakeboy02
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I see what you're saying, Jim, but I cannot agree. However, I don't want to continue this dance down Pedantic Road with you.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 01:14 PM   #633
jiml8
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The real problem with this evolution vs creation debate is that people are being insufficiently pedantic. In fact, the reason there even is a debate is because of this.

Fact is that there is NO ROOM for a debate. There is only one side to this issue. Evolution is science, identified by the scientific method, and continuously advanced by the scientific method, which relentlessly tries to destroy it and thus advances it.

When this realization is made, then the statement "I believe in evolution" is immediately seen to be nonsense. The statement "it is only a theory" is similarly shown to be without rational meaning.

And the debate vanishes. Because what evolution IS and IS NOT becomes obvious. That creationism is not science becomes obvious. It becomes equally obvious that comparing evolution and creationism is comparing apples and oranges.

This is why I insist on being pedantic on this topic. Aside from the fact that by being pedantic I am absolutely right, I also immediately highlight the falsity of this entire stinking debate.

Last edited by jiml8; 09-16-2008 at 01:20 PM.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 02:12 PM   #634
mostlyharmless
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When this realization is made, then the statement "I believe in evolution" is immediately seen to be nonsense.
Having read this entire thread, I can honestly say that this is the single best sentence. Of course we could start a new poll to see if anyone agrees.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 02:23 PM   #635
jiml8
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Originally Posted by mostlyharmless View Post
Having read this entire thread, I can honestly say that this is the single best sentence. Of course we could start a new poll to see if anyone agrees.
I have read back through some of your earlier posts and I have this comment, and only this comment:

Those who choose to willfully misinterpret are among the most vile and stupid of those among us.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 04:01 PM   #636
easuter
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Those who choose to willfully misinterpret are among the most vile and stupid of those among us.
And the thing that would give them the greatest pleasure in the world is if, in the blink of an eye, everyone on the planet became as stupid are they are.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 05:49 PM   #637
mostlyharmless
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mostlyharmless
Having read this entire thread, I can honestly say that this is the single best sentence. Of course we could start a new poll to see if anyone agrees.

I have read back through some of your earlier posts and I have this comment, and only this comment:

Those who choose to willfully misinterpret are among the most vile and stupid of those among us.
Now I'm not sure I understand your comment. Did you think I was being sarcastic about your sentence? Did you just indirectly call me vile and stupid? And did your colleague just imply that I wished everyone else was stupid too? That's not very civil. Hmm, and you don't even know me. Perhaps I've misunderstood your last post.

Oh well, I was trying to say that I thought you put your finger on exactly the problem: people want to "believe" theories, when "belief" is in the realm of religion, not science. Science is a method of inquiry involving evidence. At least, that's what I thought you said.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 06:41 PM   #638
jiml8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mostlyharmless View Post
Oh well, I was trying to say that I thought you put your finger on exactly the problem: people want to "believe" theories, when "belief" is in the realm of religion, not science. Science is a method of inquiry involving evidence. At least, that's what I thought you said.
That is what I said, and that is most certainly what I meant.

And my previous comment was obliquely made, but exactly expresses what I think. I made it then because, after reviewing your earlier posts, it occurred to me that you could have been willfully misconstruing my statement. I am glad that you were not, and I apologize for the imputation.
 
Old 09-16-2008, 07:17 PM   #639
mostlyharmless
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Thanks, no harm done.
 
Old 09-18-2008, 12:16 PM   #640
ciden
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Evolution is fact to me, though I do not claim knowledge of the entire thing.
this is so, because this theory is consistent with my first hand observations.
 
Old 09-18-2008, 12:39 PM   #641
jiml8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ciden View Post
Evolution is fact to me, though I do not claim knowledge of the entire thing.
this is so, because this theory is consistent with my first hand observations.
Yeah. Me too.

Why, I remember when the dinosaurs were developing and spreading over the globe. There were even some that were showing signs of intelligence. Then that meteor hit and wiped them out.

Then I watched the mammals expand and flourish...

Ah, yes. Those were the days...
 
Old 09-18-2008, 12:57 PM   #642
bashyow
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Deist.



how depressing that Atheism is at 42.27%
 
Old 09-18-2008, 01:33 PM   #643
immortaltechnique
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Hey can anyone explain in very simple words what the purpose of meaning is?
 
Old 09-18-2008, 01:59 PM   #644
oskar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by immortaltechnique View Post
Hey can anyone explain in very simple words what the purpose of meaning is?
Could you requestion that phrase?
 
Old 09-18-2008, 02:34 PM   #645
XavierP
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Depends what you mean by "meaning".
 
  


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