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View Poll Results: You are a...
firm believer 168 28.92%
Deist 18 3.10%
Theist 23 3.96%
Agnostic 120 20.65%
Atheist 252 43.37%
Voters: 581. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-12-2008, 01:43 PM   #601
jiml8
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Quote:
A more recent incident which more people may be familiar with was Mel Gibson's attack on the Jews. Like my grandma, Mel Gibson was brought up in a (catholic) church that told everyone Jews were evil because they murdered god. I don't believe my grandma ever met a Jew; I never met one until I was about 12 and they're like any other people I've met on the planet, not "intrinsically evil" as the catholic church would preach.
I endured 12 years of catholic school - and over the next couple of decades was able to shake off most of the effects.

But, I was never taught that Jews were evil and I don't recall ever having a nun or a priest make the point that the jews had murdered god.

When I was a kid, I used to hang out a lot at a Radio Shack that was owned by some people named Cowen. I had a somewhat peripheral knowledge that they were jewish, but it didn't impact me and they seemed like anyone else, and Mr. Cowen taught me a lot about electronics.

When I got to college, I met some of the people on the floor in my dorm, and a group of us went out one evening for some reason or other - I forget. Over the course of our drive, the topic of religion came up, and I learned I was the only gentile in the car. That caused an awkward silence for a few seconds, followed by someone saying: "well that doesn't matter". We all agreed, and continued about our business. That was my "introduction" to judaism; I didn't recognize it until it was pointed out.

Those guys and I were friends throughout college. I must admit it was entertaining when two of my best friends - one an arab and one a jew - got into it one time. But I moderated (basically told 'em to both shut up) and they wound up being friends with each other too.

There is a lesson in there someplace...
 
Old 09-13-2008, 12:28 AM   #602
pinniped
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Originally Posted by ciden View Post
Some jerks even say that God and religion are different things.
If you have a God, you have a religion, even though you may be the only one practising it.
The Buddhists have their religion, but I don't really know if they have an official god. The religion was created by a Hindu, but he seems to have left the gods out of it (at least from what little I've seen of text translated to english). Some people say Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion, and even Richard Dawkins seems to fall for that one - but it's definitely a religion - there is mysticism involved. I don't even know if Buddhism could be classed as a 'philosophy' as Plato would have understood it since Plato (and his Socrates) espoused a philosophy based on logic, not on mysticism (even though the gods were occasionally mentioned). In fact, I think that's what set philosophy apart from 'schoolyard rules' which simply change at whim - that it was based on reasoning and not just the simple acceptance of dogma. Ironically, to mindlessly parrot Plato's teachings would be dogma or religion and not philosophy as practiced by Plato himself.
 
Old 09-13-2008, 09:35 AM   #603
ciden
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Philosophy i have plenty of.
Which is actually useful in my life.

Here's one:
Use money to buy happiness,
but dont lose happiness to make money.

 
Old 09-13-2008, 10:11 AM   #604
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Interesting how just like dogs, trees and computers, we humans stay with our early programming. Unlike dogs and trees, humans can re-program themselves. There's an interesting garden in Gilroy, CA where the gardener bent and twisted young trees into amusing shapes. When a human realizes how his childhood bent and twisted his mind, at first will deny it, but overtime may come to realize that it's fact and then overcome it.
 
Old 09-13-2008, 02:13 PM   #605
jay73
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Interesting how just like dogs, trees and computers, we humans stay with our early programming. Unlike dogs and trees, humans can re-program themselves. There's an interesting garden in Gilroy, CA where the gardener bent and twisted young trees into amusing shapes. When a human realizes how his childhood bent and twisted his mind, at first will deny it, but overtime may come to realize that it's fact and then overcome it.
Overcome it? Misleading expression as the only alternative is being bent and twisted differently.
 
Old 09-13-2008, 10:47 PM   #606
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Yeah, overcome your programming! At what point in your life did you realize there is no tooth fairy and did you reset your programming? When did you discover there is no Santa Clause (you might call him Kris Kringle)? When one of your peers suggested it? Did your parents just come out and say it? Did they continue on, year after year with the charade? Or...do you still salivate when you hear a bell? My dog can't think like a human, he doesn't understand that Santa Clause isn't real. If I ask him, Where's Santa? He's going to tear up the house hunting for gift-wrapped packages, because Santa always leaves him at least one. This is for real, he thinks Santa is gift-wrapped boxes. He's a dog, I don't expect him to get any smarter and he seems to express great joy in receiving packages from Santa. So I'm not going to tell him Santa is a myth because he wouldn't understand the concept.

You're not a dog! Face your fear! Overcome your programming and enjoy life to the fullest. Rules? Of course there are rules. Most of these rules are the same rules your religion taught you, just minus the god parts. Why are there rules? How can a civilized world exist with anarchy? Trust, honesty, loyalty, fidelity, respect, you don't need religion to know the importance of these values. All life should enjoy equal respect, we're not here for long. If we want our children to have something we need to make sure it is taken care of before we pass on.
 
Old 09-13-2008, 10:55 PM   #607
Quakeboy02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yonnieboy View Post
Yeah, overcome your programming! At what point in your life did you realize there is no tooth fairy and did you reset your programming? When did you discover there is no Santa Clause (you might call him Kris Kringle)?
It's such a cruel trick that parents play. They indoctrinate us all in "harmless" beliefs as children, and count our maturity as we discard them all; except for the one, which is encouraged beyond disbelief.
 
Old 09-14-2008, 08:58 AM   #608
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Unlike dogs and trees, humans can re-program themselves.
Being self-aware and self-inquiring kicks ass.
 
Old 09-14-2008, 10:55 AM   #609
mostlyharmless
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When did you discover there is no Santa Clause (you might call him Kris Kringle)? When one of your peers suggested it?
There's no Santa?
 
Old 09-14-2008, 11:01 AM   #610
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Just wondering, did anybody bring up the story/religion of Hercules? You know, the all powerful strong guy, born to a virgin mother, (Zeus is daddy). Put on Earth to defend mankind, dies and spends 3 days in Hades, gets resurrected and goes to Mt Olympus to sit on the right-hand side of the throne with father Zeus. The belief in Hercules pre-dates Jesus by 3 or 4 centuries.

Oh and then there is Mithras....virtually identical story/religion...pre-dates Hercules and practiced till 4th century AD.

Do these religions sound familiar? Virgin-birth, man's advocate, sacrificed, dead for 3 days, resurrected, rules Earth with father-god figure.

Even the stories about Ba'al have similarities!

Time for people to grow-up, learn the story lessons and mature.
 
Old 09-14-2008, 11:28 AM   #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yonnieboy View Post
Just wondering, did anybody bring up the story/religion of Hercules? You know, the all powerful strong guy, born to a virgin mother, (Zeus is daddy). Put on Earth to defend mankind, dies and spends 3 days in Hades, gets resurrected and goes to Mt Olympus to sit on the right-hand side of the throne with father Zeus. The belief in Hercules pre-dates Jesus by 3 or 4 centuries.

Oh and then there is Mithras....virtually identical story/religion...pre-dates Hercules and practiced till 4th century AD.

Do these religions sound familiar? Virgin-birth, man's advocate, sacrificed, dead for 3 days, resurrected, rules Earth with father-god figure.

Even the stories about Ba'al have similarities!

Time for people to grow-up, learn the story lessons and mature.
Exactly. A hefty dose of reading comparative mythology might just be the cure for unquestioning belief.
 
Old 09-14-2008, 04:46 PM   #612
ErV
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Originally Posted by ciden View Post
Some jerks even say that God and religion are different things.
And they are right. Because:
1) Religion is worshipping and a complex system of rules/legens/etc.
2) Believing in God is only believing into powerful supernatural entity.

If you believe that there is a God, it doesn't mean that you'll worship him/her/it/whatever. You might believe in God and hate your creator, you might believe into "supernatural entity" without worshipping or any set of legens. Not believing doesn't prevent from worshipping and following set of rules. Take a ghosts (spirits of dead people haunting the living, of course) as example. Some people probably believe that they exists, but that's not a religion. That is just a belief.
 
Old 09-14-2008, 05:26 PM   #613
jay73
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Quote:
Just wondering, did anybody bring up the story/religion of Hercules? You know, the all powerful strong guy, born to a virgin mother, (Zeus is daddy). Put on Earth to defend mankind, dies and spends 3 days in Hades, gets resurrected and goes to Mt Olympus to sit on the right-hand side of the throne with father Zeus. The belief in Hercules pre-dates Jesus by 3 or 4 centuries.

Oh and then there is Mithras....virtually identical story/religion...pre-dates Hercules and practiced till 4th century AD.

Do these religions sound familiar? Virgin-birth, man's advocate, sacrificed, dead for 3 days, resurrected, rules Earth with father-god figure.

Even the stories about Ba'al have similarities!

Time for people to grow-up, learn the story lessons and mature.
Hmm, never heard of Jungian archetypes, have you? The human mind has a limited repository of meaningful images so it is hardly surprising that certain patterns recur throughout history. Not to mention that emphasizing similarities tends to go hand in hand with ignoring differences. For example, Greek religion was polytheist while christianity is not. Christianity is strongly apocalyptic while Greek religion is not. Hercules was physicallly strong, not spiritually. The Greek did not have anything that would even remotelly qualify as a Christian vision of soul. Did Hercules die on the cross? Did Hercules have twelve disciples? Were Jesus' ancestors royals? How many other illegal kids does Jesus' father have (0) compared to Zeus (dozens if not hundreds)? I'm sure I could go on for hours...
 
Old 09-14-2008, 07:21 PM   #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jay73 View Post
Hmm, never heard of Jungian archetypes, have you? The human mind has a limited repository of meaningful images so it is hardly surprising that certain patterns recur throughout history.
And for this very reason people create relatively similar religions regardless of the place and time.
 
Old 09-15-2008, 04:24 AM   #615
brianL
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It was more to do with getting people converted than Jung's archetypes and the collective unconscious. Give Jesus the same attributes as the gods they are used to, build churches on the same sites as pagan temples, etc. Make it easy for them to switch.
 
  


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