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Old 09-01-2014, 02:13 PM   #5161
initramfs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
Religion$? No. $tupidity!
Some wars today, not all, are because of religious extremists with a mix of their politics.

The Muslims ( not all ) hate the USA because the majority are of christian faith. They also hate Jews even more.

And if these wars are because of who we are and what faith we are, then it is indeed stupidity at it's max.

Anyway, this is just an opinion of mine. I'm not an expert in religions, war and politics.

Last edited by initramfs; 09-01-2014 at 02:30 PM.
 
Old 09-01-2014, 04:43 PM   #5162
dugan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by initramfs View Post
The Muslims ( not all ) hate the USA because the majority are of christian faith.
This has generally not been the main motivator of the adversaries that the US, Britain and Israel have fought against.

Bin Laden, in particular, started his war against the US over the stationing of US troops in Saudi Arabia.
 
Old 09-01-2014, 05:07 PM   #5163
jamison20000e
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How about the reason that we all just don't get along?!. Tradition,,, if I were a rich man yada da da... careful not to let the dogs chase down these topics of off?

Most if not all religions keep a yin and a yang, good and evil, pluses vs negatives perhaps anything does but I think not (no pun ) I do not fear death tho wish it upon none.

Last edited by jamison20000e; 09-01-2014 at 05:08 PM.
 
Old 09-01-2014, 05:21 PM   #5164
initramfs
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It doesn't matter who is wrong or right. Wars have been part of the world since the beginning of time. It's human nature... :/

Last edited by initramfs; 09-01-2014 at 06:26 PM.
 
Old 09-01-2014, 05:28 PM   #5165
jamison20000e
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Like eating hogget or.

Last edited by jamison20000e; 09-01-2014 at 06:06 PM.
 
Old 09-01-2014, 06:33 PM   #5166
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by initramfs View Post
It doesn't matter who is wrong or right. Wars have been part of the world since the beginning of time. It's human nature... :/
I not only disagree but I think this is a very sad point of view. Wars have existed for all time, excepting those entirely about Religion, because of Haves and Have Nots. It may take 1000 years for the human race on the whole to realize that the next Einstein or Jonas Salk or Robert Jarvik or Bill Gates or Steve Wozniak can come from any strata of society but they need opportunity to realize and actualize their potential so it is to everyone's advantage (without even mentioning reduction in crime) for all people to have their basic needs satisfied. This can eventually happen with cheap, near limitless power.

The vast majority of people just want to be able to provide for their families, work at something they enjoy, and have some free time to pursue entertainment and dreams. Only a few are actually unhappy if they don't have someone to oppress or kill, no matter how much they may already possess..

Last edited by enorbet; 09-01-2014 at 06:34 PM.
 
Old 09-01-2014, 06:45 PM   #5167
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Don't kid yourself dreams come at an expense that "white picket fence" is a prison if not for you then someone.
 
Old 09-02-2014, 04:09 PM   #5168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamison20000e View Post
The second most topic in this thread (mind you not read to its entirety by me and correct me if I'm wrong here) science and\or philosophy? In my humble-ungodly opinion both if not the same having nothing to do with religion or faith.
I disagree here. Religion is definitely a part of philosphy, and since many religious people think that science somehow is the direct opposite of religion one could say that science is also a valid topic, especially when it deals with the questions of human origin and religious claims that have been disproved by science.
 
Old 09-03-2014, 12:07 AM   #5169
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To many and too many (people) Philosophy is religion and it's wrong, religion should die like (philosophically) racist people or ones who think killing in anyway is helpful or necessary (maybe that's just my throne talking but at lest it's not covered in gold and jewels!)

P.s: religions opposite is more so religion than science or education although they do fit. You can read anything into anything but that's not why there's everything just perception...

Last edited by jamison20000e; 09-04-2014 at 12:19 AM.
 
Old 09-04-2014, 10:28 PM   #5170
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I dunno ... to me, there's an incredibly-rich tapestry of very-legitimate human experience that "science" simply cannot touch.

"Science," after all, is grounded in the notion (so to speak ...) that, "if I cannot measure it, it does not exist." But this only goes so far. Beyond the "bright-line rule" points in which "science" is content to operate, there's a murky but interesting world in which all of us actually live.

"If the only thing that you can accept is a 'bright' line rule, then nearly all of the world is left in the dark." What then??

"Philosophy," which might be described as "thinking about thinking," is a bold step into that murkiness. But only "religion" goes there without apology, hesitation or remorse. Whereas philosophy timidly explores a little bit beyond the bright line of "sensory certainty," religion cries out "'Abba!' ('Father!')" into nothing more than an empty room ... and hears something in return, and acts(!) upon it, without asking for any further justification at all.

"Who's the fairest of them all?" I, for one, am not ready to say: "science, of course."

After all ... men and women have been embracing religion for thousands of years before any thought of "science" existed. Does that merely mean that they "were ignorant?" (I'll never say that about our ancestors ...) Does it mean that they didn't know about the brilliant thing called "science?" Or could(!) it mean that they did (and do ...) know something, well, profound?

There was a world where Science (if they knew about such things) "will not go." They plunged right in. Not only did they "do it anyway," but they constructed their culture and their very lives around it! Why?

I'm not willing to "sell these folks down the river." When I ponder curious phrases like, "I will use the simple to confound the wisdom of the wise," I won't dismiss those "curious" things nor the people who uttered them. I won't close that door. I just won't presume that I am "so damn smarter than they are/were."

I hear that "still, small voice" sometimes. (I don't think that anyone alive can truthfully say that they never have.) There is no "scientific" explanation for it ... and yet ... it sounds ... it sounds like ... "and a stranger's voice they will not follow." (Whatever it may be, it's not "a stranger's" voice ...)

I'm not going to slam-shut any sort of "scientific" door against that, either. I may not "understand" it, but I will not dismiss it from my life. Whether or not "I call it Jesus," I'm not going to "lean to my own understanding" with regards to it. My mind is not nearly so sealed-shut. (And ... by saying that, I am not making any sort of "sideways catty-comment" with respect to anyone else. I'm me. You're you. Friend. Peace. "Cool.")

Last edited by sundialsvcs; 09-04-2014 at 10:40 PM.
 
Old 09-05-2014, 12:01 AM   #5171
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Yes, to each their own (clean up aisle 9) the (scientific) worlds go on... there's more beauty in a bird and not the "word." Peace would be kool.

Last edited by jamison20000e; 09-05-2014 at 12:02 AM.
 
Old 09-07-2014, 10:34 AM   #5172
Philip Lacroix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by initramfs
The Muslims ( not all ) hate the USA because the majority are of christian faith. They also hate Jews even more.
These are stale and unjust clichés, if you know what I mean, and they might also be quite offensive to many Muslims, who are individual human beings like you and me, not just "the Muslims". The same of course holds for Christians, Jews, Americans, Arabs, French, Indians, Canadians and so on and so forth with all possible labels. This actually should be self-evident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by initramfs
It doesn't matter who is wrong or right. Wars have been part of the world since the beginning of time. It's human nature...
Another cliché, unfortunately quite cynical. Such a way of thinking doesn't hold water anymore when you're the one upon whom the bombs are dropped. It also indirectly supports those people, organizations and governments that start wars in order to pursue their own particular interests, usually sending other (and usually unaware) people to die on their behalf. That's why thinking about wars as if they were abstract (if one can afford it...) and inevitable events is, in my humble opinion, inappropriate. Wars have always been started by people for precise reasons that usually are obfuscated by the war-starters themselves: ignoring that, by relying solely on clichés and officially released propaganda, might eventually put one into unjust, uncomfortable or even dangerous situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs
"Science," after all, is grounded in the notion (so to speak ...) that, "if I cannot measure it, it does not exist." But this only goes so far. Beyond the "bright-line rule" points in which "science" is content to operate, there's a murky but interesting world in which all of us actually live.
I would call that scientific reductionism, which is probably only one among different possible scientific outlooks of the world. That said, I agree with you on a few things. I would add that such "bright line" has been constantly moving "into" this world since human beings have started asking themselves how it works. Occasionally somebody tried to push it back (because of things like religious obscurantism, or simply intellectual inertia) but in general, and fortunately, that has not been the rule.

Last edited by Philip Lacroix; 09-07-2014 at 11:35 AM.
 
Old 09-07-2014, 11:30 AM   #5173
enorbet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvcs View Post
After all ... men and women have been embracing religion for thousands of years before any thought of "science" existed. Does that merely mean that they "were ignorant?" (I'll never say that about our ancestors ...) Does it mean that they didn't know about the brilliant thing called "science?" Or could(!) it mean that they did (and do ...) know something, well, profound?

There was a world where Science (if they knew about such things) "will not go." They plunged right in. Not only did they "do it anyway," but they constructed their culture and their very lives around it! Why?

I'm not willing to "sell these folks down the river." When I ponder curious phrases like, "I will use the simple to confound the wisdom of the wise," I won't dismiss those "curious" things nor the people who uttered them. I won't close that door. I just won't presume that I am "so damn smarter than they are/were."
I apologize for huge snips but you did cover a rather large tract of ground so I will try to get to the essence of it. There is a difference between "ignorant" and "stupid" or "less smart". They are not the same thing. Ignorance is just a lack of knowledge, an end. Smartness is just the capacity to process information, a means to get to that end. Our ancestors were smart.... but also ignorant since knowledge is not static but an ever-building shared capital resource.

Stephen Hawking has pointed out that language, and especially written language, has, in effect, become a part of Evolution, albeit an ephemeral one that can be rejected or embraced, built upon or lost, presently unlike that encoded in DNA. While language made it possible to hand down important information (ends) to subsequent generations, causing huge leaps in advancement, there has been no similar improvement to the rest of our Evolution and we are stuck with many blind characteristics that served our Hunter/Gatherer ancestors well for perhaps 1,000,000 years, but can be dangerous and conflicting in the world of the last 6,000 years or so.

A case in point is that weapons of mass destruction in the hands of people locked in to endless acquisition and the destruction of any perceived competitors is like placing a handgun in a baby's crib.

If you posit that religion began when the first human looked up at the stars and wondered about the meaning of it all yet Religion began when the first human thought he knew it all, donned some uniform to set himself apart, and convinced the leader he could keep the peasants in line with his "Knowledge" to the shared advantage of both, then you can say that science began as soon as the first human concluded he could use a stick to assist in walking or scare off predators and searched for the type of stick that would work best. That was Empirical Science. Deductive Science began with abstracts, especially Mathematics where the process of Logical Deduction was pared down to the most fundamental processes that rule out error and arrive at some truth, such as why does this type of stick break easily and this one take a beating and stay whole? Oh! I get it. Maybe I could wrap 3 or 4 sticks together with a vine? or ..The ones I can break off at the base will also break the first time I beat it on a rock to scare leopards off. Hmmmm I need a stick that takes a sharp, heavy rock to break it.

Perhaps a better illustration is that which we call "Astrology" was once what passed for Astronomy. They studied the skies but had neither the tools nor thousands of years of amassed knowledge to work with. It is also instructive that for some crazy reason Astrology still exists, over 1,000 years since the distances to heavenly bodies was beginning to be deduced and the progressive discovery that no mechanism exists that affects an individuals life, especially only at the time of birth (not conception, not whole life) and even if it did, at those distances they would be totally "spitting in the ocean" compared to our own Sun. Add to that, that constellations are a mistaken construct, a sight only visible from our location, looking completely different to the point of non existence from other locations and, due to precession, are fully a month moved from their originally perceived locations (so the so-called Signs no longer apply to the original month, let alone day) yet people still have faith in this nonsense.

Were the original Astrologers dumb? or scammers? No. They were often some of the smartest of their time. Were they ignorant? YES! Should we buy their conclusions? NO!

Last edited by enorbet; 09-07-2014 at 11:37 AM.
 
Old 09-07-2014, 01:09 PM   #5174
initramfs
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Originally Posted by initramfs View Post
The Muslims ( not all ) hate the USA because the majority are of christian faith. They also hate Jews even more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Lacroix View Post
These are stale and unjust clichés, if you know what I mean, and they might also be quite offensive to many Muslims, who are individual human beings like you and me, not just "the Muslims". The same of course holds for Christians, Jews, Americans, Arabs, French, Indians, Canadians and so on and so forth with all possible labels. This actually should be self-evident.
I didn't say every existing Muslim hates Americans, notice the ( not all ) I included in my original post. You can't denied there is some truth in this statement. You seen it on TV when they burn the American flag countless of times and chant kill the infidels. Again, this only applies to the extremists only and not the many good Muslims who are peaceful.

Last edited by initramfs; 09-07-2014 at 01:14 PM.
 
Old 09-07-2014, 01:30 PM   #5175
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Quote:
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You can't denied there is some truth in this statement.
Sure you can. The part that's not true is the "because the majority are of Christian faith" part. I mean, in the last few decades there have been no world events or political situations that could be informing that anger, right?

The people who managed to turn the Iraq War around -- David Petraeus, Robert F. Gates, and, in his last two years, George W. Bush -- were the ones who abandoned this lazy oversimplication and started understanding what was actually motivating people. Donald Rumsfeld, however, did believe that, and thus he had a losing strategy for the duration of the occupation. (Check out Peter Mansoor's book on the Iraq War, Surge, if you haven't already).

Last edited by dugan; 09-07-2014 at 01:49 PM.
 
  


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